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Musepack (MPC) SV8 beta is out
WaldoMonster
post Sep 24 2007, 20:44
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I will repeat my findings with mpcdec.
mpcdec doesn't decode to stdout but writes to the file: -

CODE
mpcdec test.mpc - |

Is decoding to stdout not implemented yet?


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Lefungus
post Sep 24 2007, 20:51
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QUOTE (WaldoMonster @ Sep 24 2007, 20:44) *
I will repeat my findings with mpcdec.
mpcdec doesn't decode to stdout but writes to the file: -

CODE
mpcdec test.mpc - |

Is decoding to stdout not implemented yet?


nope, mpcdec is more a basic sample application. There are many apps, like mpc123 or cmus, that will offer much more options to play mpc files through command line. Libmpcdec external API haven't changed much so hopefully, they'll update relatively easily


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Seed
post Sep 24 2007, 20:53
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The "not implemented" part is correct. The "yet" part depends on our main dev. I know it is an important feature for some and we won't ignore requests.


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WaldoMonster
post Sep 24 2007, 21:17
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QUOTE (Seed @ Sep 24 2007, 21:53) *
The "not implemented" part is correct. The "yet" part depends on our main dev. I know it is an important feature for some and we won't ignore requests.

Ok thanks,
I will follow the development.


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indybrett
post Sep 24 2007, 21:20
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Just like an old girlfriend. I thought I was over her years ago, and then I run into her at a party, and all those old feelings came right back smile.gif

This post has been edited by indybrett: Sep 24 2007, 21:20


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Bourne
post Sep 24 2007, 21:24
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It's worth to remember that many of you were bashing MPC and decreeting its death on a couple of topics sometime not so long ago. And it has never been this way.

This post has been edited by Bourne: Sep 24 2007, 21:25
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indybrett
post Sep 24 2007, 21:32
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QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 24 2007, 16:24) *
It's worth to remember that many of you were bashing MPC and decreeting its death on a couple of topics sometime not so long ago. And it has never been this way.

Would the "you" be people on this board, or people that have posted to this thread? I searched and didn't come up with any MPC bashing in my former posts, though it's entirely possible I did at one time.

Edit: I believe that the seeking issue was my biggest complaint, as it caused issues with some very large files. If that is fixed, that would be huge for me.

This post has been edited by indybrett: Sep 24 2007, 21:35


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Kirya
post Sep 24 2007, 21:35
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Foobar2000 0.9.4.5 beta 1 is out with Musepack SV8 decoding support smile.gif

http://foobar2000.org/beta/index.html
http://foobar2000.org/changelog.html


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sld
post Sep 24 2007, 21:42
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QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 25 2007, 04:24) *
It's worth to remember that many of you were bashing MPC and decreeting its death on a couple of topics sometime not so long ago. And it has never been this way.

It's human to err. The release of SV8 is proof enough for them, don't need to rub it in.
Get on with the testing! smile.gif

QUOTE (indybrett @ Sep 25 2007, 04:32) *
Edit: I believe that the seeking issue was my biggest complaint, as it caused issues with some very large files. If that is fixed, that would be huge for me.

Wasn't there already some sort of a 'hackish' fix in FB2K since 0.9.4.2? The worst effect would be high frequency noise that almost nobody would notice. I was already enjoying fast seek with SV7 because of that.

This post has been edited by sld: Sep 24 2007, 21:46
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Bourne
post Sep 24 2007, 21:59
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indybrett, yeah I saw you naysay on MPC.
the "you" people I talked about is actually you... LOL
But you are forgiven...
Now bowdown to MPC!
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hybridfan
post Sep 24 2007, 22:08
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God and I thought MPC was dead and buried although being a great encoder smile.gif Nice to see folks still working on Musepack.


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Seed
post Sep 24 2007, 22:17
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I would like this thread to not degrade to a level of accusations. SV8 exists because a few people found it challenging and fun enough to work on and believed the format could be improved. We want others to enjoy it too, and format wars aren't going to help with that.

We're not an organization and none of our devs can work full-time on the project. We're doing the best we can to provide tools that allow to test the new stream version. The source is there so programmers could write apps like a GUI that uses mpc2sv8. We will concentrate on development of the format and I promise to write down any request so we could evaluate which of those is practical, given our severe lack of manpower.


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Bourne
post Sep 24 2007, 23:12
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seed, can you explain what means 'no internal clipping'?
is this the solution to the karma all lossy codecs face - and the reason we use MP3Gain, for instance?
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indybrett
post Sep 24 2007, 23:27
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QUOTE (sld @ Sep 24 2007, 16:42) *
QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 25 2007, 04:24) *

It's worth to remember that many of you were bashing MPC and decreeting its death on a couple of topics sometime not so long ago. And it has never been this way.

It's human to err. The release of SV8 is proof enough for them, don't need to rub it in.
Get on with the testing! smile.gif

QUOTE (indybrett @ Sep 25 2007, 04:32) *
Edit: I believe that the seeking issue was my biggest complaint, as it caused issues with some very large files. If that is fixed, that would be huge for me.

Wasn't there already some sort of a 'hackish' fix in FB2K since 0.9.4.2? The worst effect would be high frequency noise that almost nobody would notice. I was already enjoying fast seek with SV7 because of that.

Can you send me a link via PM? I can't recall what it was, and don't want to derail this thread.

This post has been edited by indybrett: Sep 24 2007, 23:28


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Bourne
post Sep 24 2007, 23:43
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Indy forget about it... I just made that comment because I thought it was unfair. You yourself admitted you might have done that once maybe. I'm gonna respect Seed's wish and not start any further discussions.
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Seed
post Sep 25 2007, 02:17
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QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 25 2007, 00:12) *
seed, can you explain what means 'no internal clipping'?
is this the solution to the karma all lossy codecs face - and the reason we use MP3Gain, for instance?

As far as I know, MP3Gain's purpose is to apply values which allow to losslessly normalize the music's volume and make all tracks sound equally loud. This is not the same as --xlevel which was a hack added in order to overcome the previous stream version's scalefactors range deficiency. In SV8 the limitation is gone and no internal clipping occurs.


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Bourne
post Sep 25 2007, 03:43
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QUOTE (Seed @ Sep 24 2007, 22:17) *
QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 25 2007, 00:12) *

seed, can you explain what means 'no internal clipping'?
is this the solution to the karma all lossy codecs face - and the reason we use MP3Gain, for instance?

As far as I know, MP3Gain's purpose is to apply values which allow to losslessly normalize the music's volume and make all tracks sound equally loud. This is not the same as --xlevel which was a hack added in order to overcome the previous stream version's scalefactors range deficiency. In SV8 the limitation is gone and no internal clipping occurs.


A loud CD will always reach the full scale but it will stop at 0.0dB (a.k.a 1.0) no matter how clipped the CD is.
Lossy encoders introduce quantitization errors that will make the music to go over the full scale limits (example album peak 1.1600) aggravating the situation upon decoding.

MP3Gain is also the tool to minimize that effect, by normalizing the peaks.

What you say does it mean that a encoded MPC file won't go over 0.0dB limit with clip-pressed music?
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dreamliner77
post Sep 25 2007, 05:39
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I'm wondering when I should take the jump to convert my approx 260GB of musepack files to SV8? Doesn't help that I'm still using FB2K 0.8.3 on my main machine!


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Canar
post Sep 25 2007, 05:44
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Thanks Seed! I remember donating to Frank's PC fund in the hopes that SV8 would emerge. And here it is!

Congratulations, MPC team. Musepack is still my lossy format of choice, and whenever I have a friend who is technically-competent enough, it's what I use for sharing tunes.


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Diow
post Sep 25 2007, 06:01
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smile.gif Wow, MPC rises from the "darkness" ... smile.gif


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j7n
post Sep 25 2007, 12:25
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QUOTE (dreamliner77 @ Sep 25 2007, 07:39) *
Doesn't help that I'm still using FB2K 0.8.3 on my main machine!

Same here. smile.gif
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[JAZ]
post Sep 25 2007, 18:02
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QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 25 2007, 04:43) *
Lossy encoders introduce quantitization errors that will make the music to go over the full scale limits (example album peak 1.1600) aggravating the situation upon decoding.

MP3Gain is also the tool to minimize that effect, by normalizing the peaks.


Side effects are never a reason to use a thing. At much, are a reason to NOT use a thing.
In fact, MP3Gain per se doesn't solve possible clipping, and that's why players add *also* an option of "clipping prevention" with replaygain (because it can know its highest peak, and preadjust the volume so that it keeps under 0.0dB).

QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 25 2007, 04:43) *
What you say does it mean that a encoded MPC file won't go over 0.0dB limit with clip-pressed music?


I really wonder why all the savvy MPC users don't tell you this. MPC SV7 had a design limitation in which encoding highly compressed music ( i.e. nowaday's CD music ), could reach a limit in its values to store, and as such, cause an artifact in those places.
When this was discovered, the parameter --xlevel was added in order to prevent the artifact from happening. I can't comment on how it did so (lowering the volume, doing hard clip on the value instead of letting it overflow...)

So no. It does not solve what you're talking about, and it still does have that problem. It just doesn't have its own bug, with the need of its own patch.
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Bourne
post Sep 25 2007, 22:49
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thanks [JAZ] for explaining that...
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Garf
post Sep 25 2007, 23:31
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QUOTE
' date='Sep 25 2007, 19:02' post='518982']
When this was discovered, the parameter --xlevel was added in order to prevent the artifact from happening. I can't comment on how it did so (lowering the volume, doing hard clip on the value instead of letting it overflow...)


It used a trick to represent it in the bitstream which isn't understood by (very) old decoders. The values where still stored correctly. Unless the --xlevel trick wasn't enough (in which case the encoder would warn).
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michtar
post Sep 26 2007, 00:57
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Is there any way to batch convert from SV7 to SV8? BTW, using * in output name results in a crash.
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