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My tests over kmixer effects, Seem to be none...
KikeG
post Jan 16 2003, 09:40
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WinABX developer


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I've been doing some tests over kmixer effect, both using standard waveout and directsound, connecting my TBSC digital output to my Audiophile digital input, under WinXP (no SP1), and I'm sure that with a single stream at 48 KHz, with the TBSC mixer volume at max, the kmixer doesn't touch a bit of the audio stream, it's sent bit-perfectly to the output of the card. At 44.1 KHz I can't be so conclusive, since the TBSC resamples everything to 48 KHz and I've had some problems to test it the same way, but according to my analog measurements in loopback mode of Audiophile output, there is no trace of signal degradation over the 44.1 KHz played data.

...So it's very possible that this kmixer sounding worse than ASIO or k.streaming is our old friend mr. placebo entering into scene again. wink.gif

Anyway, I'll do some more tests in the future.

This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 16 2003, 09:42
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KikeG
post Jan 17 2003, 09:46
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WinABX developer


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Member No.: 137



I used WinXP pre-SP1. As I said, at 48 KHz, I used the digital output of the TBSC connected to the digital input of the M-Audio Audiophile 2496. I set the volume of the TBSC wave slider in the mixer at max. I played several signals I generated with CoolEdit Pro 1.2a in 16 bit mode. First, a 1 KHz at -1dB and another at -60 dB dithered sine that showed no digital or analog distortion artifacts, or amplitude changes when recorded. And second, and more important, a series of single pulses with known amplitude (data values) , that showed exactly same data values after recorded. For a more thorough test, I will record a musical singal and the proceed to compare bit-by bit the signal, using EAC wave comparator, but I don't think there will be any difference. The result was the same with waveout or directsound.

Note that if the output of the mixer wave slider of the TBSC is not at max, all I've said doesn't hold. Digital distortion artifacts appear and the recorded data is no longer equal to the played data.

As I said, with 44.1 KHz I couldn't use a digital comparison, since the card resamples everything to 48 KHz and when I did the test, due to some operating limitations with my Win98SE, I couldn't have a reference of the output of a hardware resampled 44.1 KHz wave file without kmixer effect, to compare. Now I have, so I will try so make a similar test with 44.1 KHz data.

Alternatively, I used analog output and input of the Audiophile, connected to each other (loopback configuration). The recording was done in 24 bit mode, with AP mixer disabled, and I played several test signals both in Win98SE (without kmixer effect) and in WinXP (with kmixer effect), and all the analog measurements I did with several 16 bit dithered signals generated with CEP (dynamic range, frequency response, distortion) were the same the same, I didn't appreciate any differences. I this case of 44.1 KHz I'm almost sure that the data is not altered, but since I can't make a digital copy, I can't prove it 100%. But even if the kmixer does something, it doesn't reflect into high precision analog quality measurements so I can conclude that, at least, it won't be audible.

I don't have any DTS decoder available to check if there's a problem here, but as I said, I'll make some more tests and try to get more conclusive results when I have time.

Now, could you describe how did you do your tests? Maybe you card internal mixer was the one that was altering the data played?

This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 17 2003, 12:04
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Posts in this topic
- KikeG   My tests over kmixer effects   Jan 16 2003, 09:40
- - thomaspf   Could you describe this setup in a bit more detail...   Jan 16 2003, 20:02
- - KikeG   I used WinXP pre-SP1. As I said, at 48 KHz, I use...   Jan 17 2003, 09:46
- - kaiwei   Did anyone actually claimed that it sounds better?...   Jan 17 2003, 11:52
- - KikeG   I don't think anybody has claimed it sounds be...   Jan 17 2003, 12:06
- - dev0   So basically all of thomaspf claims turn out to be...   Jan 17 2003, 16:17
- - thomaspf   Very interesting. All the experiments I did came a...   Jan 17 2003, 17:17
- - Pio2001   Loopbacking a soundcard into itself can lead to pr...   Jan 17 2003, 18:43
- - thomaspf   Interesting. I thought input and output of this ca...   Jan 17 2003, 19:21
- - KikeG   thomaspf, there's one thing I don't unders...   Jan 18 2003, 17:59
- - thomaspf   Strange. I have an M-audio DIO24/96 and I have no ...   Jan 19 2003, 06:11
- - Pio2001   Actually, long ago, I managed the same loopback wi...   Jan 19 2003, 14:51
- - thomaspf   Windows has supported a various driver models over...   Jan 19 2003, 18:03
- - thomaspf   A few more results. First I recreated this little ...   Jan 20 2003, 08:42
- - KikeG   I have only one computer too, but two soundcards i...   Jan 20 2003, 13:00
- - KikeG   So, all software that uses waveout (WinABX, abc/hr...   Jan 20 2003, 13:03
- - KikeG   thomaspf, make sure that in the settings of the pa...   Jan 20 2003, 14:50
- - thomaspf   Looks like we are getting on the same page here...   Jan 20 2003, 18:32
- - KikeG   In my Winamp 2 directsound plugin, I have no optio...   Jan 21 2003, 10:15
- - thomaspf   My DAC/surround sound proc is on it's way back...   Jan 21 2003, 21:58
- - KikeG   Ok, I've managed to get decent drivers for my ...   Jan 24 2003, 17:14
- - Continuum   QUOTE (KikeG @ Jan 24 2003 - 05:14 PM)Ok, I...   Jan 24 2003, 17:41
- - thomaspf   @kikeG I am expecting to get my DAC back this we...   Jan 25 2003, 00:31
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Continuum @ Jan 24 2003 - 05:41 PM)I h...   Jan 26 2003, 14:38
- - KikeG   Player: Winamp 2.81 Drivers: latest M-Audio Dio24...   Jan 26 2003, 14:41
- - thomaspf   I finally got my DAC back and repeated my tests vi...   Jan 29 2003, 08:46
- - Continuum   Are you sure that all volume levels are set to max...   Jan 29 2003, 11:53
- - KikeG   Yes, that could happen, but depends also on the se...   Jan 29 2003, 14:38
- - thomaspf   I set everything up as it shoud and also consulted...   Jan 29 2003, 19:07
- - thomaspf   Here is another tidbit. I had a conversation with ...   Feb 3 2003, 00:09
- - KikeG   This is strange, I hope I had a DTS decoder to mak...   Feb 3 2003, 09:25
- - Pio2001   I get bit perfect digital playback-record in loopb...   Feb 9 2003, 07:26
- - KikeG   I think the relevant results here would be for 44....   Feb 9 2003, 20:16
- - thomaspf   I just checked the Marian WEB site. It looks like ...   Feb 9 2003, 21:10
- - KikeG   OK, I've performed several RMAA (RightMark Aud...   Mar 6 2003, 16:35
- - KikeG   Well, a couple of months ago I managed to get mi C...   Jun 30 2003, 13:03
- - KikeG   Well, I just did a few more tests. I own now both ...   Aug 1 2003, 17:55
- - balazer   I understand that you need to use something like A...   Aug 19 2003, 10:02
- - KikeG   I already answered at the AVS thread. I did all my...   Aug 19 2003, 18:29
- - Patsoe   QUOTE (KikeG @ Jun 30 2003, 01:03 PM)There...   Aug 22 2003, 00:13
- - Peter   I suppose they just perform mixing/resampling at h...   Aug 22 2003, 01:10
- - AstralStorm   It depends on the card and its drivers. TerraTec A...   Aug 22 2003, 01:15
- - Patsoe   QUOTE (zZzZzZz @ Aug 22 2003, 01:10 AM)(ABX a...   Aug 22 2003, 01:22
- - Peter   No sane engineer seriously takes the possibility o...   Aug 22 2003, 01:37
- - AstralStorm   The test was brain-damaged. Mangled sample and no...   Aug 22 2003, 02:21
- - Patsoe   QUOTE (AstralStorm @ Aug 22 2003, 02:21 AM)Th...   Aug 22 2003, 08:06
- - KikeG   External hardware decoding of 44.1 KHz PCM-encoded...   Aug 23 2003, 18:30
- - KikeG   And, even when hardware directsound acceleration c...   Aug 23 2003, 18:35
- - Peter   That's because kernel mixer was designed to pl...   Aug 23 2003, 18:52
- - KikeG   Yes. But if I play something, I'd better prefe...   Aug 24 2003, 20:58
- - Patsoe   QUOTE (KikeG @ Aug 23 2003, 06:35 PM)So, in p...   Aug 24 2003, 21:52
- - KikeG   QUOTE (Patsoe @ Aug 24 2003, 09:52 PM)Well, i...   Aug 25 2003, 20:16


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