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Why SACDs?
sammydee
post Sep 13 2007, 15:35
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Hi guys

Something that's been bothering me for a while... Please somebody correct me immediately if I am wrong on this but I'm pretty sure the general consensus on this board is that nobody (or very close to nobody) can tell the difference between a properly encoded 320kbps mp3 and the original cd, right?

So the difference between a normal cd and a "high quality" SACD is likely to be even more difficult to distinguish, likely going completely beyond any human's ability to tell the difference.

So what the hell is the point of SACDs!?

Please somebody explain this to me.

Sam
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Bourne
post Sep 13 2007, 18:39
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QUOTE
What "mastering technique" are you talking about, the one where the CD layer is intentionally mastered to sound poorer than the SACD layer?


No, there are very well mastered CD's out there - we don't need SACD's over these ones. I mean, the ones intentionally pushed to the full digital scale in CD, they could not do the same technique with SACD.
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greynol
post Sep 13 2007, 18:54
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QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 13 2007, 10:39) *
they could not do the same technique with SACD

Why is that?

EDIT #1:
QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 13 2007, 08:07) *
for the mastering technique and for multi-channel is worthwhile...
You gave me the impression that some special technique could be employed for SACD but could not for CDDA.

One might argue that the ability to add heavy compression to CDDA is a good thing (at least it allows for greater possibilities). wink.gif

EDIT #2: (Wrong quote used for EDIT #1)

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 14 2007, 07:11


--------------------
I should publish a list of forum idiots.
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krabapple
post Sep 13 2007, 19:47
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 13 2007, 13:54) *
QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 13 2007, 10:39) *
they could not do the same technique with SACD

Why is that?


details about the Scarlet Book-mandated differences in DSD vs CD mastering, in this DSD ADC user manual (see p 10 and onwards for example):


http://www.grimmaudio.com/Manual%20AD1.pdf

elsewhere I see :
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hirez&m=237418

QUOTE
0dBfs = -6dB 'SACD' or another way; The nominal maximum level for an SACD is 6dB below PCM's absolute maximum of 0dBfs.

The maximum legal limit of an SACD's amplitude is +3.1 dB SACD or -2.9dBfs PCM. The mentioned 'Scarlet Book' also sets limits for ultra-sonic noise and DC offset.

What I actually said is that I hear problems with pushing levels up to the +3.1 maximum level and prefer to keep my maximum to 0dB SACD, with occasional peaks going up to about +1.5 dB SACD.

Really fast transients (essentially inaudible) are not really the problem; it's when the peak duration is around 200 samples or longer that it starts to become noticeable.

There is nothing gentle or soft about signals that exceed the +3.1 level; it's illegal because it is gross over-modulation of a system that behaves best with 50% modulation (-6dB), but will tolerate 76% modulation (-3.1dB) - just don't spend any 'musically significant time' at that latter level...


This post has been edited by krabapple: Sep 13 2007, 19:55
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Posts in this topic
- sammydee   Why SACDs?   Sep 13 2007, 15:35
- - abasher   The higher sampling rate and bit-depth makes it ha...   Sep 13 2007, 15:45
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (sammydee @ Sep 13 2007, 16:35) So ...   Sep 13 2007, 16:05
- - Bourne   for the mastering technique and for multi-channel ...   Sep 13 2007, 16:07
- - krabapple   QUOTE (sammydee @ Sep 13 2007, 10:35) Hi ...   Sep 13 2007, 16:27
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 13 2007, 08:27) QU...   Sep 14 2007, 22:09
- - Borbus   CD Audio is a poor format anyway, but most people ...   Sep 13 2007, 16:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 13 2007, 11:38) CD Au...   Sep 13 2007, 17:21
||- - Borbus   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 13 2007, 10:21) QU...   Sep 13 2007, 20:13
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 13 2007, 11:38) CD Au...   Sep 13 2007, 17:22
|- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 13 2007, 10:38) CD Au...   Sep 14 2007, 05:19
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (Light-Fire @ Sep 14 2007, 00...   Sep 14 2007, 23:12
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 13 2007, 17:38) For m...   Sep 14 2007, 08:46
- - ImAlive   QUOTE (sammydee @ Sep 13 2007, 16:35) So ...   Sep 13 2007, 17:18
- - greynol   QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 13 2007, 08:07) for t...   Sep 13 2007, 17:24
- - Triza   What bothers me that you have not found the search...   Sep 13 2007, 18:09
- - Bourne   QUOTE What "mastering technique" are you...   Sep 13 2007, 18:39
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Bourne @ Sep 13 2007, 10:39) they ...   Sep 13 2007, 18:54
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 13 2007, 13:54) QUOT...   Sep 13 2007, 19:47
- - greynol   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 13 2007, 12:13) Yes, ...   Sep 13 2007, 20:36
- - Borbus   DVD-A can be completely reliably and easily extrac...   Sep 14 2007, 11:51
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 14 2007, 12:51) DVD-A...   Sep 14 2007, 12:35
- - 2Bdecided   Oh come on borbus. CD was designed for playing on ...   Sep 14 2007, 12:23
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 14 2007, 04:23) Oh...   Sep 14 2007, 12:58
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (dmckean @ Sep 14 2007, 12:58) I th...   Sep 14 2007, 13:50
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 14 2007, 04:23) Oh...   Sep 14 2007, 19:25
- - Mercurio   QUOTE CD Audio is a poor format anyway, but most p...   Sep 14 2007, 19:50
- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 13 2007, 11:13) It ha...   Sep 14 2007, 21:05
|- - Mercurio   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Sep 14 2007, 12:05) As...   Sep 14 2007, 21:38
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 14 2007, 12:38) QUO...   Sep 17 2007, 21:29
- - Borbus   Hold on... Since when do we care when technology w...   Sep 15 2007, 12:44
|- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (Borbus @ Sep 15 2007, 06:44) Hold ...   Sep 16 2007, 05:06
- - KikeG   SACD is a great way to waste bits and make a sub-p...   Sep 15 2007, 18:27
|- - greynol   QUOTE (KikeG @ Sep 15 2007, 10:27) SACD i...   Sep 15 2007, 19:05
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 11:05) QUOT...   Sep 15 2007, 19:34
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 14:05) QUOT...   Sep 17 2007, 02:06
- - Mercurio   Well, we are going DVD-A vs SACD here, after we ha...   Sep 15 2007, 19:18
- - greynol   Point taken. BTW, I'm not a believer of high ...   Sep 15 2007, 19:22
- - greynol   Ok, so at what point does DVD-A overtake SACD assu...   Sep 15 2007, 19:41
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 11:41) Ok, ...   Sep 15 2007, 19:47
- - greynol   Thanks. Considering that SACD has only twice the ...   Sep 15 2007, 19:58
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 11:58) Than...   Sep 15 2007, 20:18
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Sep 15 2007, 12...   Sep 15 2007, 20:24
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 12:24) So 2...   Sep 15 2007, 21:41
- - greynol   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Sep 15 2007, 13...   Sep 15 2007, 21:49
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 13:49) QUOT...   Sep 16 2007, 17:56
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Sep 16 2007, 09...   Sep 16 2007, 18:05
- - eevan   SACD is also divided in 1/75 second frames of inte...   Sep 16 2007, 03:25
- - DigitalMan   What problem does SACD solve for the vast majority...   Sep 16 2007, 05:33
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (DigitalMan @ Sep 15 2007, 21:33) C...   Sep 16 2007, 06:22
|- - greynol   QUOTE (dmckean @ Sep 15 2007, 22:22) have...   Sep 16 2007, 06:42
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 22:42) QUOT...   Sep 16 2007, 08:37
- - Axon   Of course! Because the Beatles never really we...   Sep 16 2007, 08:49
|- - euphonic   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 16 2007, 00:49) Of cour...   Sep 16 2007, 09:04
- - greynol   ...but you guys aren't abiding by his arbitrar...   Sep 16 2007, 09:43
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 16 2007, 01:43) ...b...   Sep 16 2007, 10:05
- - greynol   You forgot Remember Two Things and the live releas...   Sep 16 2007, 10:34
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 16 2007, 02:34) You ...   Sep 17 2007, 04:23
- - Mercurio   Maybe SACD vs DVD-A can be interesting, after all ...   Sep 16 2007, 15:42
- - skamp   DSD is really Pulse-Density Modulation (PDM).   Sep 16 2007, 16:06
- - xkodi   "Why 1-Bit Sigma-Delta Conversion is Unsuitab...   Sep 16 2007, 18:45
- - greynol   And the test referenced in this thread indicates t...   Sep 16 2007, 19:01
|- - eevan   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 16 2007, 20:01) Do w...   Sep 16 2007, 20:12
- - Mercurio   I was just curious to search some data to verify m...   Sep 16 2007, 21:03
|- - eevan   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 16 2007, 22:03) I m...   Sep 16 2007, 21:35
||- - Mercurio   QUOTE (eevan @ Sep 16 2007, 12:35) Those ...   Sep 16 2007, 22:07
|||- - KikeG   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 16 2007, 22:07) - D...   Sep 16 2007, 22:30
|||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 16 2007, 14:07) - D...   Sep 16 2007, 22:39
||- - Mercurio   QUOTE I wouldn't say they use either natively....   Sep 16 2007, 22:47
||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 16 2007, 14:47) QUO...   Sep 16 2007, 23:30
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 16 2007, 13:03) I m...   Sep 16 2007, 21:52
- - KikeG   DSD is not bad because of its noise shaping algori...   Sep 16 2007, 21:28
|- - greynol   QUOTE (KikeG @ Sep 16 2007, 13:23) In ord...   Sep 16 2007, 21:37
|- - eevan   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 16 2007, 22:37) ...a...   Sep 16 2007, 21:44
- - eevan   You're right, I haven't look at the links....   Sep 16 2007, 22:25
- - Mercurio   QUOTE You could maybe get logic working at 5v I se...   Sep 17 2007, 00:16
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Sep 16 2007, 16:16) QUO...   Sep 17 2007, 01:40
- - dekkersj   Hi, It has been a while since I posted here and t...   Sep 17 2007, 11:11
- - Mercurio   QUOTE I can't parse any of this. It would help...   Sep 17 2007, 12:07
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 15 2007, 22:49) QUOT...   Sep 17 2007, 19:30
- - eevan   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Sep 17 2007, 20:30) I...   Sep 17 2007, 20:28
- - krabapple   QUOTE (eevan @ Sep 17 2007, 15:28) QUOTE ...   Sep 17 2007, 22:06


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