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Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe, (hint: no surprises!) (bumped from 2007 in post #35)
Axon
post Sep 10 2007, 04:11
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"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran. JAES 55(9) September 2007. It's worth noting that members of the BAS wrote the paper and performed in the tests. You'll need an AES membership to access the article, so no link.

Abstract:
QUOTE
Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz "bottleneck." The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels.


This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 10 2007, 04:13
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eretsua
post Jan 26 2013, 00:14
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Greynol is correct. What I meant is that indeed that the audio is presented with the same mastering (targeted for the lowest common denominator) on the two different media.

Very short on time so my apologies if this is a bit real world inaccurate / I'm taking a few shortcuts. Unfortunately, I don't have time to flesh it out right now so please try to think along in the spirit of what I'm saying rather than the letter of it.

Lets do a test. I'm guessing that would be a vinyl-targeted-master played back on a cd. there would of course be obvious problems to over come like pop & crackles on the vinyl playback that aren't present in the cd presentation of the material. Yes, I am aware that influences the sound and experience but what I'm getting at lies beyond those obvious real world differences. So lets for a moment to assume we can solve those / listen around them. Even it is just adding a simulated vinyl playback noises to the cd presentation. I think that if that playback "analog noise" has been solved you'd be hard pressed to hear to the differences between the two. If not, why not?

I totally agree that what I'm suggesting is more of a "which type of mastering style do you prefer?" kind of test rather than an actual analog vs digital test, yes. I am also well aware that in the real world the artifacts of the vinyl playback does have an influence on the reproduction of the material, yes. But I am not convinced that is the determining element in why some people prefer vinyl over cd.

So the point I'm getting at is this: I think it is the kind of mastering as they do for vinyl what the people really like, the people who prefer vinyl over cd, of course. Maybe it is that of the modern vinyl pressing have a greater dynamic range than their cd counterparts. Maybe it is the differences in the depth of the bass or some such. Maybe it is related to something else. But I don't think it is related to the physical medium itself and that if they are not visually exposed to the medium they'd still prefer the vinyl-style mastering over the mastering intended for cd reproduction. And I still stand by my idea that putting on a vinyl is more of an effort and that has a positive influence on the experience of music.







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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jan 28 2013, 19:24
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QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 18:14) *
So the point I'm getting at is this: I think it is the kind of mastering as they do for vinyl what the people really like, the people who prefer vinyl over cd, of course.


More likely, vinyl sells to people for whom it is new and its warts seem like beauty marks, and to people for whom it is old and its warts seems like beauty marks.

QUOTE
Maybe it is that of the modern vinyl pressing have a greater dynamic range than their cd counterparts.


Not a chance. They made the mistake of releasing test records on "modern vinyl pressings" so that technical types can measure its dynamic range. It's about 30 dB shy of what its CD counterparts can do.

QUOTE
Maybe it is the differences in the depth of the bass or some such.


The differences in the depth of bass or some such is that vinyl doesn't have greater depth, it has audibly far less depth.

QUOTE
Maybe it is related to something else.


Yes, naivete and sentimentality.

QUOTE
But I don't think it is related to the physical medium itself and that if they are not visually exposed to the medium they'd still prefer the vinyl-style mastering over the mastering intended for cd reproduction.


It is only a very tiny minority that prefers vinyl.

QUOTE
And I still stand by my idea that putting on a vinyl is more of an effort and that has a positive influence on the experience of music.


Good thing that you stand by your ideas... ;-)
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Posts in this topic
- Axon   Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe   Sep 10 2007, 04:11
- - PoisonDan   Interesting, thanks!   Sep 10 2007, 07:08
- - hushypushy   Very interesting...people are still going to claim...   Sep 10 2007, 07:14
- - Kees de Visser   Thanks for the info. Any details about the A/D/A l...   Sep 10 2007, 12:16
- - LANjackal   Thanks for this   Sep 10 2007, 13:18
- - Bad Monkey   The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A lo...   Sep 10 2007, 13:48
|- - hushypushy   QUOTE (Bad Monkey @ Sep 10 2007, 05:48) T...   Sep 10 2007, 17:15
- - kdo   Can smb remind me please if there was any AES arti...   Sep 10 2007, 13:58
- - Madman1153   The title as well as the Abstract of this article ...   Sep 10 2007, 17:57
- - Bad Monkey   @ hushypushy: You've rush-read my post and hav...   Sep 10 2007, 17:59
- - Canar   Did they noise shape the 16-bit audio? Noise shapi...   Sep 10 2007, 18:47
- - AndyH-ha   The several comments about lack of inferences on s...   Sep 10 2007, 19:34
- - Axon   Sorry, I haven't had a whole lot of time to su...   Sep 10 2007, 20:37
|- - Kees de Visser   OK, I finally got the paper (written by the Boston...   Sep 11 2007, 06:33
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 12:37) The pap...   Sep 12 2007, 00:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 15:37) The pap...   Sep 13 2007, 17:27
|- - Axon   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 13 2007, 11:27) So...   Sep 13 2007, 20:02
- - AndyH-ha   They tested the quantization level of 16/44 by ABX...   Sep 11 2007, 00:03
- - greynol   Sounds like more than just quantization noise was ...   Sep 11 2007, 06:53
- - 2Bdecided   It implies the best and most convenient content av...   Sep 11 2007, 12:26
|- - user   I think, the result of this paper and tests are cl...   Sep 11 2007, 13:53
- - Axon   So I've been monitoring Audio Asylum's thr...   Sep 13 2007, 20:23
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 13 2007, 15:23) So I...   Sep 14 2007, 22:56
|- - david moran   >> * JA asserted that the high res playe...   Sep 19 2007, 22:15
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 19 2007, 17:15) ...   Sep 19 2007, 23:52
||- - david moran   Okay. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses,...   Sep 20 2007, 22:40
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 06:48
|||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 23:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 08:52
|||- - spockep   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 13:37
||- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 19 2007, 16:52) Be...   Dec 20 2012, 10:50
|- - Axon   Thank you for replying (and hopefully you'll s...   Sep 20 2007, 00:42
- - dekkersj   I contacted the authors and they replied that they...   Sep 20 2007, 20:58
- - dekkersj   Thanks David, Good to talk to you this way I ...   Sep 20 2007, 22:49
- - Axon   What they said. Thanks for responding. Clearly i...   Sep 23 2007, 04:01
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 23 2007, 04:01) For eve...   Sep 24 2007, 11:39
- - usernaim   I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to...   May 28 2012, 18:43
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (usernaim @ May 28 2012, 13:43) I...   May 29 2012, 15:37
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 29 2012, 15...   May 29 2012, 17:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 12:47) QU...   May 29 2012, 21:10
- - 2Bdecided   Arny, I'm on your side. The point is they clai...   May 31 2012, 10:17
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 31 2012, 05:17) Ar...   May 31 2012, 12:45
- - SoNic67   I am a fan of SACD recordings. Not necesarelly bec...   Jun 1 2012, 00:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 1 2012, 00:08) Anywa...   Jun 1 2012, 11:40
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) QUO...   Jun 1 2012, 12:01
|- - SoNic67   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) You...   Jun 2 2012, 00:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Sonic67)Everyone tells me that I can't ...   Jun 3 2012, 00:27
- - Wombat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 18:47) Fa...   Jun 3 2012, 00:11
- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 9 2007, 21:11) "Au...   Dec 20 2012, 10:44
- - DonP   One argument I would consider is that if any compo...   Dec 20 2012, 14:26
|- - sawdin   If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't ...   Jan 6 2013, 19:58
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (sawdin @ Jan 6 2013, 13:58) If the...   Jan 7 2013, 15:51
|- - drmoran@aol.com   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 7 2013, 09...   Jan 20 2013, 01:25
- - mzil   Dr. Moran, I think this test you used is brilliant...   Jan 20 2013, 06:01
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 20 2013, 00:01) Dr. Mor...   Jan 22 2013, 19:02
|- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 22 2013, 14...   Jan 22 2013, 22:50
- - eretsua   The difference in sound between vinyl and CDs, I t...   Jan 23 2013, 03:22
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 20:22) The ...   Jan 23 2013, 04:28
||- - julf   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 23 2013, 04:28) ...   Jan 23 2013, 08:33
||- - markanini   QUOTE (julf @ Jan 23 2013, 08:33) QUOTE (...   Jan 23 2013, 09:14
||- - julf   QUOTE (markanini @ Jan 23 2013, 09:14) Do...   Jan 23 2013, 10:54
||- - eretsua   Sigh, regardless of how well or how poorly anyone ...   Jan 23 2013, 11:27
||- - julf   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 23 2013, 11:27) Sigh...   Jan 23 2013, 12:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 21:22) The ...   Jan 24 2013, 19:45
- - markanini   That's like calling a prostitute a nun for hav...   Jan 24 2013, 06:40
- - 2Bdecided   No, I think he means use the vinyl as the source, ...   Jan 25 2013, 11:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 05:14) No...   Jan 25 2013, 13:17
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 13:50
||- - dhromed   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 25 2013, 13:50) Iím s...   Jan 25 2013, 14:02
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 14:01
- - db1989   Oh lawd! Why didnít I ever suspect before? Co...   Jan 25 2013, 14:12
- - greynol   eretsua is suggesting that a CD using the same mas...   Jan 25 2013, 17:47
- - eretsua   Greynol is correct. What I meant is that indeed th...   Jan 26 2013, 00:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 19:14) So t...   Jan 26 2013, 17:48
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 18:14) So t...   Jan 28 2013, 19:24
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 28 2013, 10...   Jan 28 2013, 20:03
- - greynol   We have a saying around here: you can make your CD...   Jan 26 2013, 00:42
- - 2Bdecided   I'm totally lost. Anyway, while I'm happ...   Jan 28 2013, 14:04
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 14:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 15:25
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 05:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 19:54
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 09:04) I...   Jan 29 2013, 05:12
- - 2Bdecided   I was lost with who suggested we blind tested what...   Jan 29 2013, 10:45
- - jeffb   Re: vinyl and CDs... I enjoy both, and have over ...   Jun 14 2013, 23:57
- - greynol   Due to the two off-topic posts in the last 24 hour...   Jun 15 2013, 01:22


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