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Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe, (hint: no surprises!) (bumped from 2007 in post #35)
Axon
post Sep 10 2007, 04:11
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"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran. JAES 55(9) September 2007. It's worth noting that members of the BAS wrote the paper and performed in the tests. You'll need an AES membership to access the article, so no link.

Abstract:
QUOTE
Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz "bottleneck." The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels.


This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 10 2007, 04:13
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mzil
post Jan 20 2013, 06:01
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Dr. Moran, I think this test you used is brilliant! Thank you.

I pondered in another thread that this same methodology would be an excellent way to battle LP against CD. As you know, all other attempts to AB(X) test the two is pointless because of obvious pops and ticks (audible at least during the quiet sections of even the best LPs) acting as "tells" or "giveaways", as well as the fact that they use different master recordings, so it wouldn't be an apples to apples test even if there were no pops/ticks to contend with on the vinyl versions. Your test also conquers any synchronization problems since the LP and the A/D/A looped version from the CD recorder's output would always be matched, regardless of any speed drift with the turntable.

I don't know if you follow these things, but there is a huge contingent of young people who claim LPs are superior to CD, "As long as you can hear beyond the occasional pops and ticks" they typically claim. Sales for LPs are also at an all time high over the past 20 years!

Any chance we can see you apply this great A/D/A loop test of yours to vinyl records? Without your test there is no way to conclusively show the young folks that their preference for an LP over a CD is simply due to the different master recording that made it, or some LP distortion they "dig". [Oddly, for reasons that escape me, some recent LPs have a larger dynamic range to the CD version (due to the mastering), with some pop music, I'm told. This would also help expose that this fact is a mastering issue, and not inherent to the mediums themselves.]

This post has been edited by mzil: Jan 20 2013, 06:46
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jan 22 2013, 19:02
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QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 20 2013, 00:01) *
Dr. Moran, I think this test you used is brilliant! Thank you.


Two words: Prior art.

The Meyer Moran test is basically a straight wire bypass test of the ADC/DAC combination they used to create the CD-response bandbass filter.

Here's an example of its use from over 23 years ago:

http://bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing.htm

Straight wire bypass testing was old 23 years ago!


QUOTE
Any chance we can see you apply this great A/D/A loop test of yours to vinyl records? Without your test there is no way to conclusively show the young folks that their preference for an LP over a CD is simply due to the different master recording that made it, or some LP distortion they "dig". [Oddly, for reasons that escape me, some recent LPs have a larger dynamic range to the CD version (due to the mastering), with some pop music, I'm told. This would also help expose that this fact is a mastering issue, and not inherent to the mediums themselves.]


The test in question has been done many times. It is fairly well known that if you burn a CD of a LP transcription it sounds just like the digital file that was originally created by the transcription process.

Yes, many of the things that people say they prefer about LPs is mastering, and it is almost certain that the rest is simply hype.
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Posts in this topic
- Axon   Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe   Sep 10 2007, 04:11
- - PoisonDan   Interesting, thanks!   Sep 10 2007, 07:08
- - hushypushy   Very interesting...people are still going to claim...   Sep 10 2007, 07:14
- - Kees de Visser   Thanks for the info. Any details about the A/D/A l...   Sep 10 2007, 12:16
- - LANjackal   Thanks for this   Sep 10 2007, 13:18
- - Bad Monkey   The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A lo...   Sep 10 2007, 13:48
|- - hushypushy   QUOTE (Bad Monkey @ Sep 10 2007, 05:48) T...   Sep 10 2007, 17:15
- - kdo   Can smb remind me please if there was any AES arti...   Sep 10 2007, 13:58
- - Madman1153   The title as well as the Abstract of this article ...   Sep 10 2007, 17:57
- - Bad Monkey   @ hushypushy: You've rush-read my post and hav...   Sep 10 2007, 17:59
- - Canar   Did they noise shape the 16-bit audio? Noise shapi...   Sep 10 2007, 18:47
- - AndyH-ha   The several comments about lack of inferences on s...   Sep 10 2007, 19:34
- - Axon   Sorry, I haven't had a whole lot of time to su...   Sep 10 2007, 20:37
|- - Kees de Visser   OK, I finally got the paper (written by the Boston...   Sep 11 2007, 06:33
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 12:37) The pap...   Sep 12 2007, 00:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 15:37) The pap...   Sep 13 2007, 17:27
|- - Axon   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 13 2007, 11:27) So...   Sep 13 2007, 20:02
- - AndyH-ha   They tested the quantization level of 16/44 by ABX...   Sep 11 2007, 00:03
- - greynol   Sounds like more than just quantization noise was ...   Sep 11 2007, 06:53
- - 2Bdecided   It implies the best and most convenient content av...   Sep 11 2007, 12:26
|- - user   I think, the result of this paper and tests are cl...   Sep 11 2007, 13:53
- - Axon   So I've been monitoring Audio Asylum's thr...   Sep 13 2007, 20:23
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 13 2007, 15:23) So I...   Sep 14 2007, 22:56
|- - david moran   >> * JA asserted that the high res playe...   Sep 19 2007, 22:15
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 19 2007, 17:15) ...   Sep 19 2007, 23:52
||- - david moran   Okay. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses,...   Sep 20 2007, 22:40
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 06:48
|||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 23:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 08:52
|||- - spockep   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 13:37
||- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 19 2007, 16:52) Be...   Dec 20 2012, 10:50
|- - Axon   Thank you for replying (and hopefully you'll s...   Sep 20 2007, 00:42
- - dekkersj   I contacted the authors and they replied that they...   Sep 20 2007, 20:58
- - dekkersj   Thanks David, Good to talk to you this way I ...   Sep 20 2007, 22:49
- - Axon   What they said. Thanks for responding. Clearly i...   Sep 23 2007, 04:01
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 23 2007, 04:01) For eve...   Sep 24 2007, 11:39
- - usernaim   I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to...   May 28 2012, 18:43
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (usernaim @ May 28 2012, 13:43) I...   May 29 2012, 15:37
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 29 2012, 15...   May 29 2012, 17:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 12:47) QU...   May 29 2012, 21:10
- - 2Bdecided   Arny, I'm on your side. The point is they clai...   May 31 2012, 10:17
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 31 2012, 05:17) Ar...   May 31 2012, 12:45
- - SoNic67   I am a fan of SACD recordings. Not necesarelly bec...   Jun 1 2012, 00:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 1 2012, 00:08) Anywa...   Jun 1 2012, 11:40
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) QUO...   Jun 1 2012, 12:01
|- - SoNic67   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) You...   Jun 2 2012, 00:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Sonic67)Everyone tells me that I can't ...   Jun 3 2012, 00:27
- - Wombat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 18:47) Fa...   Jun 3 2012, 00:11
- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 9 2007, 21:11) "Au...   Dec 20 2012, 10:44
- - DonP   One argument I would consider is that if any compo...   Dec 20 2012, 14:26
|- - sawdin   If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't ...   Jan 6 2013, 19:58
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (sawdin @ Jan 6 2013, 13:58) If the...   Jan 7 2013, 15:51
|- - drmoran@aol.com   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 7 2013, 09...   Jan 20 2013, 01:25
- - mzil   Dr. Moran, I think this test you used is brilliant...   Jan 20 2013, 06:01
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 20 2013, 00:01) Dr. Mor...   Jan 22 2013, 19:02
|- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 22 2013, 14...   Jan 22 2013, 22:50
- - eretsua   The difference in sound between vinyl and CDs, I t...   Jan 23 2013, 03:22
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 20:22) The ...   Jan 23 2013, 04:28
||- - julf   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 23 2013, 04:28) ...   Jan 23 2013, 08:33
||- - markanini   QUOTE (julf @ Jan 23 2013, 08:33) QUOTE (...   Jan 23 2013, 09:14
||- - julf   QUOTE (markanini @ Jan 23 2013, 09:14) Do...   Jan 23 2013, 10:54
||- - eretsua   Sigh, regardless of how well or how poorly anyone ...   Jan 23 2013, 11:27
||- - julf   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 23 2013, 11:27) Sigh...   Jan 23 2013, 12:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 21:22) The ...   Jan 24 2013, 19:45
- - markanini   That's like calling a prostitute a nun for hav...   Jan 24 2013, 06:40
- - 2Bdecided   No, I think he means use the vinyl as the source, ...   Jan 25 2013, 11:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 05:14) No...   Jan 25 2013, 13:17
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 13:50
||- - dhromed   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 25 2013, 13:50) Iím s...   Jan 25 2013, 14:02
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 14:01
- - db1989   Oh lawd! Why didnít I ever suspect before? Co...   Jan 25 2013, 14:12
- - greynol   eretsua is suggesting that a CD using the same mas...   Jan 25 2013, 17:47
- - eretsua   Greynol is correct. What I meant is that indeed th...   Jan 26 2013, 00:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 19:14) So t...   Jan 26 2013, 17:48
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 18:14) So t...   Jan 28 2013, 19:24
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 28 2013, 10...   Jan 28 2013, 20:03
- - greynol   We have a saying around here: you can make your CD...   Jan 26 2013, 00:42
- - 2Bdecided   I'm totally lost. Anyway, while I'm happ...   Jan 28 2013, 14:04
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 14:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 15:25
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 05:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 19:54
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 09:04) I...   Jan 29 2013, 05:12
- - 2Bdecided   I was lost with who suggested we blind tested what...   Jan 29 2013, 10:45
- - greynol   Due to the two off-topic posts in the last 24 hour...   Jun 15 2013, 01:22


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