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Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe, (hint: no surprises!) (bumped from 2007 in post #35)
Axon
post Sep 10 2007, 04:11
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"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran. JAES 55(9) September 2007. It's worth noting that members of the BAS wrote the paper and performed in the tests. You'll need an AES membership to access the article, so no link.

Abstract:
QUOTE
Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz "bottleneck." The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels.


This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 10 2007, 04:13
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DonP
post Dec 20 2012, 14:26
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One argument I would consider is that if any component in the chain wouldn't pass the higher frequencies of the hirez signal, then THAT would prevent the very golden eared from ABXing the difference. Getting good dispersion even up to 20 kHz is a notorious weak point for most speakers.

Playing the music at borderline painful levels may be ok for validating the noise floor, but I'd think triggering the ear's internal AGC (tensing up the ear bones) could reduce high frequency hearing (in the moment; not referring to the permanent damage it does.)

This post has been edited by DonP: Dec 20 2012, 14:27
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sawdin
post Jan 6 2013, 19:58
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If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't those who vociferously disagreed with the stated results stage 'better designed/implemented' ABX tests? If they have, please provide links. If they haven't, why not; Is it a question of expense and/or logistical concerns?

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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jan 7 2013, 15:51
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QUOTE (sawdin @ Jan 6 2013, 13:58) *
If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't those who vociferously disagreed with the stated results stage 'better designed/implemented' ABX tests? If they have, please provide links. If they haven't, why not; Is it a question of expense and/or logistical concerns?


Most critics of Meyers and Moran also seem to have problems with ABX testing all by itself. After all, it tends to not reinforce their prejudices! ;-)

The first thing that most golden ears do when trying to replicate tests with results they disagree with is *improve* on ABX. The results are usually pretty funny (in a dark way) once the dust settles. Example that comes to mind: John Atkinson testing power amps for Stereophile with his own DBT procedure.

This post has been edited by Arnold B. Krueger: Jan 7 2013, 15:51
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drmoran@aol.com
post Jan 20 2013, 01:25
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 7 2013, 09:51) *
QUOTE (sawdin @ Jan 6 2013, 13:58) *
If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't those who vociferously disagreed with the stated results stage 'better designed/implemented' ABX tests? If they have, please provide links. If they haven't, why not; Is it a question of expense and/or logistical concerns?


Most critics of Meyers and Moran also seem to have problems with ABX testing all by itself. After all, it tends to not reinforce their prejudices! ;-)

The first thing that most golden ears do when trying to replicate tests with results they disagree with is *improve* on ABX. The results are usually pretty funny (in a dark way) once the dust settles. Example that comes to mind: John Atkinson testing power amps for Stereophile with his own DBT procedure.



+++

Have not been here for a long while, but I hasten to add (in response to assertions elsewhere) that Bob Stuart was not one of the auditioners (that would've been awesome, since it was his AESJ article bogoclaims which prompted the test in the first place; if I won a big lottery I would have all sorts of trip-paid challenges to tweakos). And second, we were not 'misled' by hi-rez manufacturers, at least not directly; we simply invited all listeners to bring their own favorite hi-rez material, which we listed, and much of it was Chesky direct, and not ever remasters of old stuff. Anyone who wants to redo our work should use lots of SACD and beyond, ultrahi-rez stuff, to see if that gets debunked too (whaddaya bet?). Our point was to be ample and capacious enough in all respects to give every chance for listeners to prove they could hear the RBCD bottleneck when switched in blindly. This led to a certain amount of suboptimal statistical hygiene. As a trained statistician and Journal reviewer put it, 'Given that your test was designed to allow participants every opportunity to demonstrate their ability to discriminate between A and B, you were more concerned that you not get a false positive conclusion than that there not be a possibility of reaching a false negative conclusion.'
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Posts in this topic
- Axon   Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe   Sep 10 2007, 04:11
- - PoisonDan   Interesting, thanks!   Sep 10 2007, 07:08
- - hushypushy   Very interesting...people are still going to claim...   Sep 10 2007, 07:14
- - Kees de Visser   Thanks for the info. Any details about the A/D/A l...   Sep 10 2007, 12:16
- - LANjackal   Thanks for this   Sep 10 2007, 13:18
- - Bad Monkey   The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A lo...   Sep 10 2007, 13:48
|- - hushypushy   QUOTE (Bad Monkey @ Sep 10 2007, 05:48) T...   Sep 10 2007, 17:15
- - kdo   Can smb remind me please if there was any AES arti...   Sep 10 2007, 13:58
- - Madman1153   The title as well as the Abstract of this article ...   Sep 10 2007, 17:57
- - Bad Monkey   @ hushypushy: You've rush-read my post and hav...   Sep 10 2007, 17:59
- - Canar   Did they noise shape the 16-bit audio? Noise shapi...   Sep 10 2007, 18:47
- - AndyH-ha   The several comments about lack of inferences on s...   Sep 10 2007, 19:34
- - Axon   Sorry, I haven't had a whole lot of time to su...   Sep 10 2007, 20:37
|- - Kees de Visser   OK, I finally got the paper (written by the Boston...   Sep 11 2007, 06:33
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 12:37) The pap...   Sep 12 2007, 00:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 15:37) The pap...   Sep 13 2007, 17:27
|- - Axon   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 13 2007, 11:27) So...   Sep 13 2007, 20:02
- - AndyH-ha   They tested the quantization level of 16/44 by ABX...   Sep 11 2007, 00:03
- - greynol   Sounds like more than just quantization noise was ...   Sep 11 2007, 06:53
- - 2Bdecided   It implies the best and most convenient content av...   Sep 11 2007, 12:26
|- - user   I think, the result of this paper and tests are cl...   Sep 11 2007, 13:53
- - Axon   So I've been monitoring Audio Asylum's thr...   Sep 13 2007, 20:23
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 13 2007, 15:23) So I...   Sep 14 2007, 22:56
|- - david moran   >> * JA asserted that the high res playe...   Sep 19 2007, 22:15
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 19 2007, 17:15) ...   Sep 19 2007, 23:52
||- - david moran   Okay. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses,...   Sep 20 2007, 22:40
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 06:48
|||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 23:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 08:52
|||- - spockep   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 13:37
||- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 19 2007, 16:52) Be...   Dec 20 2012, 10:50
|- - Axon   Thank you for replying (and hopefully you'll s...   Sep 20 2007, 00:42
- - dekkersj   I contacted the authors and they replied that they...   Sep 20 2007, 20:58
- - dekkersj   Thanks David, Good to talk to you this way I ...   Sep 20 2007, 22:49
- - Axon   What they said. Thanks for responding. Clearly i...   Sep 23 2007, 04:01
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 23 2007, 04:01) For eve...   Sep 24 2007, 11:39
- - usernaim   I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to...   May 28 2012, 18:43
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (usernaim @ May 28 2012, 13:43) I...   May 29 2012, 15:37
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 29 2012, 15...   May 29 2012, 17:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 12:47) QU...   May 29 2012, 21:10
- - 2Bdecided   Arny, I'm on your side. The point is they clai...   May 31 2012, 10:17
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 31 2012, 05:17) Ar...   May 31 2012, 12:45
- - SoNic67   I am a fan of SACD recordings. Not necesarelly bec...   Jun 1 2012, 00:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 1 2012, 00:08) Anywa...   Jun 1 2012, 11:40
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) QUO...   Jun 1 2012, 12:01
|- - SoNic67   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) You...   Jun 2 2012, 00:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Sonic67)Everyone tells me that I can't ...   Jun 3 2012, 00:27
- - Wombat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 18:47) Fa...   Jun 3 2012, 00:11
- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 9 2007, 21:11) "Au...   Dec 20 2012, 10:44
- - DonP   One argument I would consider is that if any compo...   Dec 20 2012, 14:26
|- - sawdin   If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't ...   Jan 6 2013, 19:58
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (sawdin @ Jan 6 2013, 13:58) If the...   Jan 7 2013, 15:51
|- - drmoran@aol.com   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 7 2013, 09...   Jan 20 2013, 01:25
- - mzil   Dr. Moran, I think this test you used is brilliant...   Jan 20 2013, 06:01
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 20 2013, 00:01) Dr. Mor...   Jan 22 2013, 19:02
|- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 22 2013, 14...   Jan 22 2013, 22:50
- - eretsua   The difference in sound between vinyl and CDs, I t...   Jan 23 2013, 03:22
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 20:22) The ...   Jan 23 2013, 04:28
||- - julf   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 23 2013, 04:28) ...   Jan 23 2013, 08:33
||- - markanini   QUOTE (julf @ Jan 23 2013, 08:33) QUOTE (...   Jan 23 2013, 09:14
||- - julf   QUOTE (markanini @ Jan 23 2013, 09:14) Do...   Jan 23 2013, 10:54
||- - eretsua   Sigh, regardless of how well or how poorly anyone ...   Jan 23 2013, 11:27
||- - julf   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 23 2013, 11:27) Sigh...   Jan 23 2013, 12:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 21:22) The ...   Jan 24 2013, 19:45
- - markanini   That's like calling a prostitute a nun for hav...   Jan 24 2013, 06:40
- - 2Bdecided   No, I think he means use the vinyl as the source, ...   Jan 25 2013, 11:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 05:14) No...   Jan 25 2013, 13:17
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 13:50
||- - dhromed   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 25 2013, 13:50) Iím s...   Jan 25 2013, 14:02
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 14:01
- - db1989   Oh lawd! Why didnít I ever suspect before? Co...   Jan 25 2013, 14:12
- - greynol   eretsua is suggesting that a CD using the same mas...   Jan 25 2013, 17:47
- - eretsua   Greynol is correct. What I meant is that indeed th...   Jan 26 2013, 00:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 19:14) So t...   Jan 26 2013, 17:48
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 18:14) So t...   Jan 28 2013, 19:24
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 28 2013, 10...   Jan 28 2013, 20:03
- - greynol   We have a saying around here: you can make your CD...   Jan 26 2013, 00:42
- - 2Bdecided   I'm totally lost. Anyway, while I'm happ...   Jan 28 2013, 14:04
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 14:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 15:25
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 05:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 19:54
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 09:04) I...   Jan 29 2013, 05:12
- - 2Bdecided   I was lost with who suggested we blind tested what...   Jan 29 2013, 10:45
- - greynol   Due to the two off-topic posts in the last 24 hour...   Jun 15 2013, 01:22


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