IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe, (hint: no surprises!) (bumped from 2007 in post #35)
Axon
post Sep 10 2007, 04:11
Post #1





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1984
Joined: 4-January 04
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 10933



"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran. JAES 55(9) September 2007. It's worth noting that members of the BAS wrote the paper and performed in the tests. You'll need an AES membership to access the article, so no link.

Abstract:
QUOTE
Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz "bottleneck." The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels.


This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 10 2007, 04:13
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
usernaim
post May 28 2012, 18:43
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 61
Joined: 4-May 08
Member No.: 53291



I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to revisit this test in light of what we now know.

The simplest reason why the test would get a null result if if the hi-rez material were not actually. And what we know now is that many commercial SACDs and recordings sold on HD Tracks (many dervied from SACD masters) are not high resolution. Bruce at Puget Sound, who does a lot of the transfers, has said that they have to reject 30% of what is submitted by labels (now that they have been stung, they check every track but that was not always the case). And many SACDs with spectral content above 24 kHz have merely been upsampled after previously being downsampled to 44 or 48 kHz.

Looking at the list of sample tracks (http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm), I know at least Steely Dan Gaucho is not a legit high res transfer. Has anyone checked the spectrals on these samples?

So, how many of these tracks aren't what they purport to be? Who has the disks and can look at spectrals?

Patricia Barber Ė Nightclub (Mobile Fidelity UDSACD 2004)
Chesky: Various -- An Introduction to SACD (SACD204)
Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171)
Stephen Hartke: Tituli/Cathedral in the Thrashing Rain; Hilliard Ensemble/Crockett (ECM New Series 1861, cat. no. 476 1155, SACD)
Bach Concertos: Perahia et al; Sony SACD
Mozart Piano Concertos: Perahia, Sony SACD
Kimber Kable: Purity, an Inspirational Collection SACD T Minus 5 Vocal Band, no cat. #
Tony Overwater: Op SACD (Turtle Records TRSA 0008)
McCoy Tyner Illuminati SACD (Telarc 63599)
Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon SACD (Capitol/EMI 82136)
Steely Dan, Gaucho, Geffen SACD
Alan Parsons, I, Robot DVD-A (Chesky CHDD 2003)
BSO, Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony SACD (RCA 82876-61387-2 RE1)
Carlos Heredia, Gypsy Flamenco SACD (Chesky SACD266)
Shakespeare in Song, Phoenix Bach Choir, Bruffy, SACD (Chandos CHSA 5031)
Livingston Taylor, Ink SACD (Chesky SACD253)
The Persuasions, The Persuasions Sing the Beatles, SACD (Chesky SACD244)
Steely Dan, Two Against Nature, DVD-A (24,96) Giant Records 9 24719-9
McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clark and Al Foster, Telarc SACD 3488
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Arnold B. Kruege...
post May 29 2012, 15:37
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 3647
Joined: 29-October 08
From: USA, 48236
Member No.: 61311



QUOTE (usernaim @ May 28 2012, 13:43) *
I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to revisit this test in light of what we now know.

The simplest reason why the test would get a null result if if the hi-rez material were not actually. And what we know now is that many commercial SACDs and recordings sold on HD Tracks (many dervied from SACD masters) are not high resolution. Bruce at Puget Sound, who does a lot of the transfers, has said that they have to reject 30% of what is submitted by labels (now that they have been stung, they check every track but that was not always the case). And many SACDs with spectral content above 24 kHz have merely been upsampled after previously being downsampled to 44 or 48 kHz.

Looking at the list of sample tracks (http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm), I know at least Steely Dan Gaucho is not a legit high res transfer. Has anyone checked the spectrals on these samples?

So, how many of these tracks aren't what they purport to be? Who has the disks and can look at spectrals?


A little quickie searching of Wikipedia and Amazon comes up with the following release dates:

Patricia Barber Ė Nightclub (Mobile Fidelity UDSACD 2004) Original Release Date: September 26, 2000

Chesky: Various -- An Introduction to SACD (SACD204) needs track by track analysis

Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171) needs track by track analysis

Stephen Hartke: Tituli/Cathedral in the Thrashing Rain; Hilliard Ensemble/Crockett
(ECM New Series 1861, cat. no. 476 1155, SACD) Audio CD (November 18, 2008)

Bach Concertos: Perahia et al; Sony SACD Audio CD (March 12, 2002)

Mozart Piano Concertos: Perahia, Sony SACD Audio CD (October 25, 1990)

Kimber Kable: Purity, an Inspirational Collection SACD T Minus 5 Vocal Band, no cat. no audio CD equivalent found

Tony Overwater: Op SACD (Turtle Records TRSA 0008) Audio CD (March 18, 2008)


McCoy Tyner Illuminati SACD (Telarc 63599) Audio CD (June 22, 2004)


Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon SACD (Capitol/EMI 82136) Audio CD (March 1973)

Steely Dan, Gaucho, Geffen SACD Audio CD (1980)


Alan Parsons, I, Robot DVD-A (Chesky CHDD 2003) Audio CD (1977)


BSO, Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony SACD (RCA 82876-61387-2 RE1) Audio CD (July 5, 1991)


Carlos Heredia, Gypsy Flamenco SACD (Chesky SACD266) Audio CD (February 15, 1996)


Shakespeare in Song, Phoenix Bach Choir, Bruffy, SACD (Chandos CHSA 5031) Audio CD (September 21, 2004)

Livingston Taylor, Ink SACD (Chesky SACD253) Audio CD (September 23, 1997)

The Persuasions, The Persuasions Sing the Beatles, SACD (Chesky SACD244) Audio CD (February 26, 2002)

Steely Dan, Two Against Nature, DVD-A (24,96) Giant Records 9 24719-9 Audio CD (May 2, 2006)

McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clark and Al Foster, Telarc SACD 3488 Audio CD (January 25, 2000)

I would suggest that anything released prior to 1997 would have been originally tracked, mixed and/or mastered in what we would call now a legacy format, either 15 ips analog tape or 44-48-50 KHz sampled digital.

This suggests that 7 of the 20 or so total sources are guaranteed to give random guessing in the tests they did.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post May 29 2012, 17:47
Post #4


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5059
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 29 2012, 15:37) *
Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171) needs track by track analysis
At least some of this is from 24/96 masters.

QUOTE
I would suggest that anything released prior to 1997 would have been originally tracked, mixed and/or mastered in what we would call now a legacy format, either 15 ips analog tape or 44-48-50 KHz sampled digital.

This suggests that 7 of the 20 or so total sources are guaranteed to give random guessing in the tests they did.

Oh come on Arny wink.gif - the whole point of Sony inventing DSD was to capture 15ips analogue tape in the best quality possible at the time. That's how it was presented at the AES: the best possible digital archive format for the Columbia archive they'd just bought.

Fans are/were forever wetting themselves about how these older recordings sound so much better on hi-res than CD.

The idea that 15ips analogue recordings don't sound better on hi-res than CD is only mentioned to try to debunk Mayer and Moran. Outside this specific purpose, fans of hi-res seem convinced that everything sounds better in hi-res than CD.

(but then, I know you know all this wink.gif )

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: May 29 2012, 17:52
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Axon   Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe   Sep 10 2007, 04:11
- - PoisonDan   Interesting, thanks!   Sep 10 2007, 07:08
- - hushypushy   Very interesting...people are still going to claim...   Sep 10 2007, 07:14
- - Kees de Visser   Thanks for the info. Any details about the A/D/A l...   Sep 10 2007, 12:16
- - LANjackal   Thanks for this   Sep 10 2007, 13:18
- - Bad Monkey   The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A lo...   Sep 10 2007, 13:48
|- - hushypushy   QUOTE (Bad Monkey @ Sep 10 2007, 05:48) T...   Sep 10 2007, 17:15
- - kdo   Can smb remind me please if there was any AES arti...   Sep 10 2007, 13:58
- - Madman1153   The title as well as the Abstract of this article ...   Sep 10 2007, 17:57
- - Bad Monkey   @ hushypushy: You've rush-read my post and hav...   Sep 10 2007, 17:59
- - Canar   Did they noise shape the 16-bit audio? Noise shapi...   Sep 10 2007, 18:47
- - AndyH-ha   The several comments about lack of inferences on s...   Sep 10 2007, 19:34
- - Axon   Sorry, I haven't had a whole lot of time to su...   Sep 10 2007, 20:37
|- - Kees de Visser   OK, I finally got the paper (written by the Boston...   Sep 11 2007, 06:33
|- - dmckean   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 12:37) The pap...   Sep 12 2007, 00:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 10 2007, 15:37) The pap...   Sep 13 2007, 17:27
|- - Axon   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 13 2007, 11:27) So...   Sep 13 2007, 20:02
- - AndyH-ha   They tested the quantization level of 16/44 by ABX...   Sep 11 2007, 00:03
- - greynol   Sounds like more than just quantization noise was ...   Sep 11 2007, 06:53
- - 2Bdecided   It implies the best and most convenient content av...   Sep 11 2007, 12:26
|- - user   I think, the result of this paper and tests are cl...   Sep 11 2007, 13:53
- - Axon   So I've been monitoring Audio Asylum's thr...   Sep 13 2007, 20:23
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 13 2007, 15:23) So I...   Sep 14 2007, 22:56
|- - david moran   >> * JA asserted that the high res playe...   Sep 19 2007, 22:15
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 19 2007, 17:15) ...   Sep 19 2007, 23:52
||- - david moran   Okay. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses,...   Sep 20 2007, 22:40
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 06:48
|||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 23:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 08:52
|||- - spockep   QUOTE (david moran @ Sep 20 2007, 17:40) ...   Sep 22 2007, 13:37
||- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 19 2007, 16:52) Be...   Dec 20 2012, 10:50
|- - Axon   Thank you for replying (and hopefully you'll s...   Sep 20 2007, 00:42
- - dekkersj   I contacted the authors and they replied that they...   Sep 20 2007, 20:58
- - dekkersj   Thanks David, Good to talk to you this way I ...   Sep 20 2007, 22:49
- - Axon   What they said. Thanks for responding. Clearly i...   Sep 23 2007, 04:01
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 23 2007, 04:01) For eve...   Sep 24 2007, 11:39
- - usernaim   I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to...   May 28 2012, 18:43
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (usernaim @ May 28 2012, 13:43) I...   May 29 2012, 15:37
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 29 2012, 15...   May 29 2012, 17:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 12:47) QU...   May 29 2012, 21:10
- - 2Bdecided   Arny, I'm on your side. The point is they clai...   May 31 2012, 10:17
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 31 2012, 05:17) Ar...   May 31 2012, 12:45
- - SoNic67   I am a fan of SACD recordings. Not necesarelly bec...   Jun 1 2012, 00:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (SoNic67 @ Jun 1 2012, 00:08) Anywa...   Jun 1 2012, 11:40
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) QUO...   Jun 1 2012, 12:01
|- - SoNic67   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 1 2012, 06:40) You...   Jun 2 2012, 00:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Sonic67)Everyone tells me that I can't ...   Jun 3 2012, 00:27
- - Wombat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 29 2012, 18:47) Fa...   Jun 3 2012, 00:11
- - bernlin2000   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 9 2007, 21:11) "Au...   Dec 20 2012, 10:44
- - DonP   One argument I would consider is that if any compo...   Dec 20 2012, 14:26
|- - sawdin   If the BAS testing was so flawed, why haven't ...   Jan 6 2013, 19:58
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (sawdin @ Jan 6 2013, 13:58) If the...   Jan 7 2013, 15:51
|- - drmoran@aol.com   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 7 2013, 09...   Jan 20 2013, 01:25
- - mzil   Dr. Moran, I think this test you used is brilliant...   Jan 20 2013, 06:01
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (mzil @ Jan 20 2013, 00:01) Dr. Mor...   Jan 22 2013, 19:02
|- - mzil   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 22 2013, 14...   Jan 22 2013, 22:50
- - eretsua   The difference in sound between vinyl and CDs, I t...   Jan 23 2013, 03:22
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 20:22) The ...   Jan 23 2013, 04:28
||- - julf   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 23 2013, 04:28) ...   Jan 23 2013, 08:33
||- - markanini   QUOTE (julf @ Jan 23 2013, 08:33) QUOTE (...   Jan 23 2013, 09:14
||- - julf   QUOTE (markanini @ Jan 23 2013, 09:14) Do...   Jan 23 2013, 10:54
||- - eretsua   Sigh, regardless of how well or how poorly anyone ...   Jan 23 2013, 11:27
||- - julf   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 23 2013, 11:27) Sigh...   Jan 23 2013, 12:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 22 2013, 21:22) The ...   Jan 24 2013, 19:45
- - markanini   That's like calling a prostitute a nun for hav...   Jan 24 2013, 06:40
- - 2Bdecided   No, I think he means use the vinyl as the source, ...   Jan 25 2013, 11:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 25 2013, 05:14) No...   Jan 25 2013, 13:17
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 13:50
||- - dhromed   QUOTE (db1989 @ Jan 25 2013, 13:50) Iím s...   Jan 25 2013, 14:02
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2013, 12...   Jan 25 2013, 14:01
- - db1989   Oh lawd! Why didnít I ever suspect before? Co...   Jan 25 2013, 14:12
- - greynol   eretsua is suggesting that a CD using the same mas...   Jan 25 2013, 17:47
- - eretsua   Greynol is correct. What I meant is that indeed th...   Jan 26 2013, 00:14
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 19:14) So t...   Jan 26 2013, 17:48
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (eretsua @ Jan 25 2013, 18:14) So t...   Jan 28 2013, 19:24
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 28 2013, 10...   Jan 28 2013, 20:03
- - greynol   We have a saying around here: you can make your CD...   Jan 26 2013, 00:42
- - 2Bdecided   I'm totally lost. Anyway, while I'm happ...   Jan 28 2013, 14:04
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 14:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 15:25
|- - greynol   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 05:04) I...   Jan 28 2013, 19:54
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 28 2013, 09:04) I...   Jan 29 2013, 05:12
- - 2Bdecided   I was lost with who suggested we blind tested what...   Jan 29 2013, 10:45
- - jeffb   Re: vinyl and CDs... I enjoy both, and have over ...   Jun 14 2013, 23:57
- - greynol   Due to the two off-topic posts in the last 24 hour...   Jun 15 2013, 01:22


Closed TopicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th July 2014 - 11:00