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Nightwish - Angels Fall First
shadowking
post Jun 4 2007, 17:11
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Serious problems for LAME mp3 , similar issues with AAC.

This post has been edited by shadowking: Jun 4 2007, 17:23


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halb27
post Sep 6 2012, 20:17
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Thank you for applauding 3.99.5y, but I'm afraid something has gone wrong.
3.99.5y restricts its functional extension to only -V0+.
Did you use 3.99.5x instead? However 3.99.5x -V5+ doesn't help (for me), it takes an additional --adbr_min 200 to make this sample transparent to me (didn't try lower --adbr_min values).

To me this is not a pre-echo issue but a sample where Lame's psy model isn't quite right, but this flaw is overcome here by original Lame's top quality settings. With 3.99.5y problems like these are tackled by the internal --adbr_min feature which always keeps audio data bitrate above a certain threshold.


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lame3100m -V1 --insane-factor 0.75
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Dynamic
post Sep 8 2012, 17:29
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QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 6 2012, 20:17) *
Thank you for applauding 3.99.5y, but I'm afraid something has gone wrong.
3.99.5y restricts its functional extension to only -V0+.
Did you use 3.99.5x instead? However 3.99.5x -V5+ doesn't help (for me), it takes an additional --adbr_min 200 to make this sample transparent to me (didn't try lower --adbr_min values).

To me this is not a pre-echo issue but a sample where Lame's psy model isn't quite right, but this flaw is overcome here by original Lame's top quality settings. With 3.99.5y problems like these are tackled by the internal --adbr_min feature which always keeps audio data bitrate above a certain threshold.


Sorry, I'm late replying, hence the full quote.

That's weird. My -V 5+ version was encoded by lame-3.99.5y.zip from your thread about that Lame version, halb27.

The -V 5 version encoded by it was 132kbps, LAME3.99y reported encoder (short string can't display the extra .5)
The -V 5+ version had a load more 320 kbps frames, and came out at 189kbps without running mp3packer. I have attached the -V 5+ version to this post.

--edit: the above info from foobar2000 before I realised I still had the original command prompt open--

I'd assume it's doing something when I run -V 5+ as indicated in --help. Perhaps it's reverting to the behaviour of LAME3.99.5x? Dunno.

Here's a CODEBOX with the --help info and the two encodes I ran. As luck would have it I still have the same Command Prompt Console open so I followed up with a -V 0 and -V 0+ encode, to compare, and there are actually 5 encodes in the following order:

1) lame3.98.4r -V 5
2) lame3.99.5y -V 5+ (file attached to this post)
3) lame3.99.5y -V 5
4) lame3.99.5y -V 0
5) lame3.99.5y -V 0+

I note that the percentage of short blocks is the same in the different encodes including a 3.98.4r encode I didn't spend time ABXing, but the -V 0+ encode is encoded very differently from the -V 5+

Please feel free to download the -V5+ encode attached to this post and examine it or ABX it between 0.9 and 1.9 seconds, or whatever you choose.

CODE
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
Copyright 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

//* deleted stuff ... *//
Directory of C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals

06/09/2012 16:16 <DIR> .
06/09/2012 16:16 <DIR> ..
06/09/2012 16:16 3,003,540 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.flac
23/08/2012 19:21 30,072 Impulse at 0.625s 384kHz sampling rate .pk
23/08/2012 19:21 1,920,044 Impulse at 0.625s 384kHz sampling rate .wav
3 File(s) 4,953,656 bytes
2 Dir(s) 7,226,523,648 bytes free

//* deleted stuff including decoding FLAC to WAV... *//

//* I did a quick encode for comparison using LAME3.98r left over from an expired dBpowerAmp
trial, which I didn't spend serious time ABXing, reasoning that using different modes of the same
encoder version might be more meaningful *//

C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>"C:\Program Files\Illustrate\dBpoweramp\encoder
\mp3 (Lame)\lame.exe" -V5 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav
LAME 3.98.4 32bits (http://www.mp3dev.org/)
CPU features: MMX (ASM used), 3DNow! (ASM used), SSE (ASM used), SSE2
Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 16538 Hz - 17071 Hz
Encoding 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav
to 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=5)
Frame | CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU | ETA
1154/1154 (100%)| 0:01/ 0:01| 0:01/ 0:01| 17.869x| 0:00
32 [ 8] **
40 [ 0]
48 [ 0]
56 [ 0]
64 [ 0]
80 [ 0]
96 [ 26] %%***
112 [ 230] %%%%%%%%%********************************
128 [ 389] %%%%%%%%%%%%%*******************************************************
160 [ 329] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%********************************************
192 [ 81] %%%************
224 [ 61] %**********
256 [ 21] ****
320 [ 9] %*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kbps LR MS % long switch short %
145.9 19.5 80.5 83.3 8.9 7.8
Writing LAME Tag...done
ReplayGain: -3.4dB

C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>lame3995y.exe --help
LAME 32bits version 3.99.5y (http://lame.sf.net)

usage: lame3995y.exe [options] <infile> [outfile]

<infile> and/or <outfile> can be "-", which means stdin/stdout.

RECOMMENDED:
lame -V2 input.wav output.mp3

OPTIONS:
-b bitrate set the bitrate, default 128 kbps
-h higher quality, but a little slower. Recommended.
-f fast mode (lower quality)
-V n quality setting for VBR. default n=4
0=high quality,bigger files. 9=smaller files
-V n+ compared to -V n, -V n+ has a significantly reduced
amount of inaccurately encoded frames due to
lacking data space. Moreover, it doesn't allow
audio data bitrate to go too low
--preset type type must be "medium", "standard", "extreme", "insane",
or a value for an average desired bitrate and depending
on the value specified, appropriate quality settings will
be used.
"--preset help" gives more info on these

--priority type sets the process priority
0,1 = Low priority
2 = normal priority
3,4 = High priority

--help id3 ID3 tagging related options

--longhelp full list of options

--license print License information


C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>lame3995y.exe -V 5+ 05___Angels_Fall_First_ring
ing.wav 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v5plus.mp3
LAME 3.99.5y 32bits (http://lame.sf.net)
Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 16538 Hz - 17071 Hz
Encoding 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav
to 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v5plus.mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=5)
Frame | CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU | ETA
1154/1154 (100%)| 0:02/ 0:02| 0:02/ 0:02| 12.244x| 0:00
32 [ 8] %*
40 [ 0]
48 [ 0]
56 [ 0]
64 [ 0]
80 [ 0]
96 [ 0]
112 [ 19] %%***
128 [ 306] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%***************************************************
160 [ 263] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%*******************************************
192 [ 217] %%%%%%%%%%%**************************************
224 [ 109] %%%%%%*******************
256 [ 91] %%%%*****************
320 [ 141] %%******************************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kbps LR MS % long switch short %
189.0 21.3 78.7 83.3 8.9 7.8
Writing LAME Tag...done
ReplayGain: -3.4dB

C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>lame3995y.exe -V 5 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringi
ng.wav 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v5normal.mp3
LAME 3.99.5y 32bits (http://lame.sf.net)
Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 16538 Hz - 17071 Hz
Encoding 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav
to 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v5normal.mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=5)
Frame | CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU | ETA
1154/1154 (100%)| 0:02/ 0:02| 0:02/ 0:02| 14.375x| 0:00
32 [ 8] %*
40 [ 0]
48 [ 0]
56 [ 0]
64 [ 0]
80 [ 0]
96 [ 52] %%******
112 [ 428] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%************************************************
128 [ 456] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%***************************************************
160 [ 80] %%%*********
192 [ 75] %***********
224 [ 28] %****
256 [ 23] %***
320 [ 4] %
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kbps LR MS % long switch short %
131.9 21.3 78.7 83.3 8.9 7.8
Writing LAME Tag...done
ReplayGain: -3.4dB

C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>lame3995y.exe -V 0 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringi
ng.wav 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v0normal.mp3
LAME 3.99.5y 32bits (http://lame.sf.net)
polyphase lowpass filter disabled
Encoding 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav
to 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v0normal.mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=0)
Frame | CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU | ETA
1154/1154 (100%)| 0:02/ 0:02| 0:02/ 0:02| 11.376x| 0:00
32 [ 0]
40 [ 0]
48 [ 0]
56 [ 0]
64 [ 0]
80 [ 0]
96 [ 0]
112 [ 0]
128 [ 5] %
160 [ 5] %
192 [ 55] %%%%%%%%%
224 [ 327] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%*******
256 [ 436] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%********************
320 [ 326] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%***************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kbps LR MS % long switch short %
261.0 75.7 24.3 83.3 8.9 7.8
Writing LAME Tag...done
ReplayGain: -3.4dB

C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>lame3995y.exe -V 0+ 05___Angels_Fall_First_ring
ing.wav 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v0plus.mp3
LAME 3.99.5y 32bits (http://lame.sf.net)
Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 17249 Hz - 17782 Hz
Encoding 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav
to 05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v0plus.mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=0)
Frame | CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU | ETA
1154/1154 (100%)| 0:04/ 0:04| 0:04/ 0:04| 7.3687x| 0:00
32 [ 0]
40 [ 0]
48 [ 0]
56 [ 0]
64 [ 0]
80 [ 0]
96 [ 0]
112 [ 0]
128 [ 0]
160 [ 0]
192 [ 0]
224 [ 3] %
256 [ 139] %%%%%%%%**
320 [1012] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%*****************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kbps LR MS % long switch short %
312.0 75.6 24.4 83.3 8.9 7.8
Writing LAME Tag...done
ReplayGain: -3.4dB

C:\Users\Ryan\Music\Test signals>


This post has been edited by Dynamic: Sep 8 2012, 17:30
Attached File(s)
Attached File  05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.wav.v5plus.mp3 ( 695.1K ) Number of downloads: 105
 


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halb27
post Sep 8 2012, 18:54
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QUOTE (Dynamic @ Sep 8 2012, 18:29) *
That's weird. ...

You're right, and the weirdness is definitely on my side. Sorry for the confusion.
I'm a bit upset about the version I uploaded which definitely doesn't work the way I intended (though it seems to have its advantages) and is not identical with my development version.
I'll try to find out about the problem. Sorry again.

Anyway, your finding shows that making Lame more defensive makes sense also with lower settings than -V0+. Thanks for that. I'll go back to work.


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lame3100m -V1 --insane-factor 0.75
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Dynamic
post Sep 8 2012, 20:02
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QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 8 2012, 18:54) *
Anyway, your finding shows that making Lame more defensive makes sense also with lower settings than -V0+. Thanks for that. I'll go back to work.


Although I don't think I'm as good as you at ABXing, I'm impressed with what this version fixes personally, and to me, it seems to confirm the feeling that the pitch variations coincided with the picking transients, as changing only the short block encoding to maximum (or I presume just that change) solved it.

The 0.9 to 1.9 second range also sounds great to me at -V 6.3+ (about as 'low quality' as lame can go without invoking resampling to 32 kHz sampling rate), though it's also around 180 kbps and perhaps the lower lowpass is devoting more bits to encoding the passband accurately. I couldn't hear any pitch variation on -V6.3+ and while I thought I heard a slight difference in the upper frequencies to focus on, I couldn't ABX it (4/7 before I gave up). Incidentally, at -V6.3+ it allows slightly more long blocks (84.4% vs 83.3%), but the problem is still solved to my ears on that specific one-second part of this sample, though I guess, being a short-block problem, having more long blocks might actually help tonal encoding and it might have made some of the transients more pre-echoey or smeared, which I don't think I'm good at picking up. The transient detection might be marginally affected by the lowpass nearing 16 kHz at -V6.3+
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Posts in this topic
- shadowking   Nightwish - Angels Fall First   Jun 4 2007, 17:11
- - odyssey   Please add version, parameters etc. I had no prob...   Jun 4 2007, 17:18
- - shadowking   I first spotted it with 3.97 ages ago. Tested 3.98...   Jun 4 2007, 17:26
- - greynol   I'm not sure I could ABX at -V3, but at -V4 di...   Jun 4 2007, 17:35
- - halb27   Tried 3.97V5 on it. I couldn't hear the proble...   Jun 4 2007, 19:52
|- - shadowking   QUOTE (halb27 @ Jun 5 2007, 04:52) Tried ...   Jun 10 2007, 04:33
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (shadowking @ Jun 9 2007, 23:33) QU...   Jun 10 2007, 18:43
- - LANjackal   For what it's worth, I couldn't ABX it at ...   Jun 5 2007, 06:53
- - stigc   It's funny, Vorbis (aoTuVb5) have no 'trem...   Jun 5 2007, 11:11
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (stigc @ Jun 5 2007, 12:11) Does an...   Jun 8 2007, 00:18
- - Jillian   Out Of Topic. I'm very disappoint Anette, ne...   Jun 5 2007, 11:26
- - robert   @shadowking: nice sample, but I think we cannot fi...   Jun 7 2007, 14:26
- - alter4   I was able to abx even lame 3.99.5 with -b320 -q0 ...   Sep 4 2012, 11:05
|- - halb27   QUOTE (alter4 @ Sep 4 2012, 12:05) I was ...   Sep 6 2012, 20:29
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 6 2012, 16:29) You us...   Sep 8 2012, 04:13
|- - MostlyHarmless   QUOTE (IgorC @ Sep 8 2012, 06:13) p = 0.0...   Sep 8 2012, 12:12
|- - C.R.Helmrich   0.5^number-of-trials. Igor, I wouldn't say 5 i...   Sep 8 2012, 13:17
- - psycho   I missed this thread in 2007, but now I'm inte...   Sep 4 2012, 16:47
- - lvqcl   05___Angels_Fall_First_ringing.flac was (re)upload...   Sep 4 2012, 18:15
- - psycho   Hm, I can't hear it... I've tried -V 6 to ...   Sep 5 2012, 19:38
- - mixminus1   A ringing/fluttering in the right-channel guitar, ...   Sep 5 2012, 20:13
- - psycho   Thanks, mixminus1. I will try it again tonight. B...   Sep 6 2012, 11:33
|- - Dynamic   I wanted to try out the VBR+ mode (-V n+) of halb2...   Sep 6 2012, 18:59
- - psycho   Aha! Now I took time, put my headphones on and...   Sep 6 2012, 17:19
- - halb27   Thank you for applauding 3.99.5y, but I'm afra...   Sep 6 2012, 20:17
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 6 2012, 20:17) Thank ...   Sep 8 2012, 17:29
|- - halb27   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Sep 8 2012, 18:29) That...   Sep 8 2012, 18:54
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 8 2012, 18:54) Anyway...   Sep 8 2012, 20:02
- - halb27   I tried various 3.99.5 -Vn settings with this inte...   Sep 7 2012, 21:49
- - alter4   QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 6 2012, 22:29) QUOTE ...   Sep 8 2012, 11:14
|- - halb27   QUOTE (alter4 @ Sep 8 2012, 12:14) I did ...   Sep 8 2012, 18:28
- - halb27   Thanks for that. Hopefully you will continue your ...   Sep 8 2012, 20:33
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 8 2012, 20:33) One th...   Sep 9 2012, 10:04
- - alter4   Guys, just one question. What is LAME3.99y encoder...   Sep 9 2012, 11:14
- - halb27   You can download it from the 3.99.5y thread. Than...   Sep 9 2012, 13:30
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (halb27 @ Sep 9 2012, 13:30) You ca...   Sep 10 2012, 17:34
- - halb27   Here comes a candidate for 3.99.5z to play with. T...   Sep 10 2012, 22:16
|- - Dynamic   Thanks, I look forward to testing this. Ryan. [e...   Sep 11 2012, 08:40
|- - halb27   QUOTE (Dynamic @ Sep 11 2012, 09:40) ... ...   Sep 11 2012, 09:23
- - halb27   I'd like to draw special attention to the samp...   Sep 11 2012, 09:09


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