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Digitizing mono vinyl: using phase-inversion to reduce noise
alfienoakes101
post May 2 2007, 23:36
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Hi.

I have been using a long-winded process to reduce some extraneous noise when digitizing mono vinyl sources. With Sound Forge, I have been subtracting the difference between the two channels of my records, on the assumption that most of it is noise, and the resultant files are usually audibly better.

1. Invert the phase of one of the two channels on the original .wav file (1.wav).
2. Convert to mono by mixing the channels.
3. Save the difference (noise file) as a mono .wav file (2.wav).
4. Re-open the original "stereo" file (1.wav).
5. Convert to mono by mixing the two channels.
6. Save the sum as a mono .wav file (3.wav).
7. Open original "stereo" file (1.wav).
8. Open difference (noise) file (2.wav), copy it and overwrite onto left channel of 1.wav.
9. *edit* Invert noise channel.
10. Open sum file (3.wav), copy it and overwrite onto right channel of 1.wav.
11. Convert to mono by mixing the two channels.
12. Save changes to 1.wav.

Is there an audio editor that will allow me to subtract the difference of a stereo file in a single step, as it would save me a lot of time, and allow me to hear instantly whether the audio is significantly improved, without having to get confused by extra files? If I could work in flac, that would be even better.

If found the link below that references and old version of Cool Edit, but I gather that's been discontinued.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry344060

Thanks.

This post has been edited by alfienoakes101: May 3 2007, 00:38
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AndyH-ha
post May 8 2007, 21:47
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It's a trade-off. There is some advantage to mixing to mono first because that process alone can remove many clicks, especially larger ones. For awhile I believed the advantages weighed in on that side, in spite of general opinion. The disadvantage is that too many of the partially removed clicks are harder to deal with afterwards. Automated declicking routines recognize fewer of them and some are harder to find, and harder to correct, manually.

There is a sort-of middle ground but I've pretty much abandoned it too. Using CE's Channel Mixer with the L-R to Mid-Side preset puts the mono file in the left channel and the throw-away stuff in the right channel. On thing this process makes clear is that very large clicks often have consequences that extend for a few hundred milliseconds beyond the obvious peak. That is at least one of the reasons why the usual declicking too often leaves low frequency thumps that are harder to remove. In a normal stereo mix, these are often difficult to see.

Anyway, dividing the spoils this way gives one clearer access to some of the larger (and not so large clicks). One can manually remove some clicks from the right channel, then mix back to the original using the Mid-Side to L-R preset. You are back to the beginning, ready for automated declicking, minus some number of difficult clicks.

Unfortunately it doesn't always work well because of two difficulties. One is that all of the disruption isn't always in the right channel; sometimes the bulk of it is in the left. The other is that the same applies to smaller clicks that you don't even care to go after while in this mode. Some of those will, none the less, be effected by your efforts on near-by larger clicks. Once the channels are back together, the program(s) can have the same problems properly recognizing and correcting some clicks as when simply converting to mono and working on the mono file.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions about more expensive tools.
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cliveb
post May 9 2007, 08:40
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 8 2007, 21:47) *
It's a trade-off. There is some advantage to mixing to mono first because that process alone can remove many clicks, especially larger ones.

Surely unless a click is identical but out-of-phase on both channels, then it can't be completely removed by mixdown to mono? And it strikes me that the chances of a click being identical and out-of-phase are vanishingly small.

I agree that conversion to mono can produce an improvement (ie. a reduction in amplitude) where the click is present mainly on only one channel, but there are more effective repair techniques in this case: If you're the sort of person who is prepared to manually consider the best repair method for each individual click, then by recording a mono LP in stereo, you can copy small sections of one channel to the other in order to remove glitches that appear on only one channel. Straightforward mixdown to mono doesn't produce a repair as good as this.
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Posts in this topic
- alfienoakes101   Digitizing mono vinyl: using phase-inversion to reduce noise   May 2 2007, 23:36
- - bryant   When you mix the left and right channels to produc...   May 2 2007, 23:54
|- - alfienoakes101   QUOTE (bryant @ May 2 2007, 23:54) Your l...   May 3 2007, 01:16
- - AndyH-ha   There are two reasonable approaches. Which one to ...   May 3 2007, 00:25
|- - Wook   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 2 2007, 23:25)...   May 3 2007, 10:05
- - pdq   The noise in the two channels can be highly correl...   May 3 2007, 12:19
|- - Wook   QUOTE (pdq @ May 3 2007, 11:19) The noise...   May 4 2007, 12:02
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Wook @ May 4 2007, 07:02) QUOTE (p...   May 4 2007, 16:51
- - Robbie   Certainly just summing the two channels will cance...   May 3 2007, 12:33
- - alfienoakes101   I guess then that the "noise" that I hav...   May 3 2007, 17:49
|- - bryant   QUOTE (alfienoakes101 @ May 3 2007, 09:49...   May 3 2007, 18:01
|- - pdq   QUOTE (bryant @ May 3 2007, 13:01) OT: Th...   May 3 2007, 20:05
|- - hushypushy   QUOTE (pdq @ May 3 2007, 12:05) QUOTE (br...   May 4 2007, 06:21
- - AndyH-ha   That cartridge alignment is (reasonably) correct h...   May 3 2007, 19:57
- - Axon   1. Sum and difference the L and R channels to get ...   May 4 2007, 06:46
- - AndyH-ha   1. Sum and difference the L and R channels to get ...   May 4 2007, 07:56
- - 2Bdecided   Back to removing noise from mono LPs: I've alw...   May 4 2007, 10:41
- - AndyH-ha   The best way to play a mono recording must be with...   May 4 2007, 19:45
- - 2Bdecided   I find... stereo > declick > decrackle ...   May 8 2007, 13:56
- - AndyH-ha   It's a trade-off. There is some advantage to m...   May 8 2007, 21:47
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 8 2007, 21:47)...   May 9 2007, 08:40
- - AndyH-ha   The overall advantage is in declicking first. Howe...   May 9 2007, 23:38
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 9 2007, 23:38)...   May 10 2007, 10:03
- - 2Bdecided   Rather than saying "it won't work", ...   May 10 2007, 10:36
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 10 2007, 10:36) My...   May 10 2007, 23:17
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 10 2007, 10:36) If...   May 11 2007, 09:51
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (cliveb @ May 11 2007, 09:51) QUOTE...   May 14 2007, 10:34
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 14 2007, 10:34) Se...   May 14 2007, 12:30
- - AndyH-ha   Automated declicking is never the end of declickin...   May 10 2007, 19:58
- - AndyH-ha   I have a segment of that recording, declicked, tha...   May 11 2007, 05:44
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 11 2007, 05:44...   May 11 2007, 08:48
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 11 2007, 05:44...   May 14 2007, 11:35
- - AndyH-ha   No, there is no such box. Does its existence depen...   May 11 2007, 19:35
|- - woody_woodward   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 11 2007, 11:35...   May 11 2007, 21:50
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (woody_woodward @ May 11 2007, 21:5...   May 12 2007, 10:41
- - charliemcdo   Sorry to be off topic here, but I just wanted to a...   May 12 2007, 18:02
- - AndyH-ha   Obviously, the file attachment section is a privil...   May 12 2007, 19:19
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 12 2007, 19:19...   May 12 2007, 22:51
- - AndyH-ha   And do you perchance remember a late night visit f...   May 13 2007, 05:20
- - 2Bdecided   I bet it's something to do with developers or ...   May 14 2007, 09:55
- - 2Bdecided   Hi Clive, I wasn't criticising or complaining...   May 14 2007, 13:21
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 14 2007, 13:21) I ...   May 14 2007, 14:50
- - AndyH-ha   The file, resampled to 16 bit, is at http://www.hy...   May 15 2007, 08:43
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ May 15 2007, 08:43...   May 18 2007, 10:04
- - AndyH-ha   Do you want something from another album to play w...   May 20 2007, 00:42


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