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Ogg Vorbis in The Guardian (UK)
sketchy_c
post Apr 23 2007, 13:14
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My few personal ~128 kbps ABC/HR tests have given a slight edge to Nero AAC, but my new lossy conversions have been aoTuV b4.51 -q5. The main reason I'm using Vorbis right now is AAC's relative incompatibility with MusicIP tags (when archived, they don't play on foobar or Rockbox; apparently, iTunes is fine). That said, I'm still very pleased with Vorbis and would suggest it (and Nero AAC) to anybody who's willing to try something different.

Generally, I will use software that best suits my needs the most whether its open-source or not, though I'm willing to do a little bit of work if it's a free product.

This post has been edited by sketchy_c: Apr 23 2007, 13:15
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rjamorim
post Apr 25 2007, 15:39
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QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 23 2007, 09:10) *
If you're talking about grassroots promotion, that's already been/being done with little effect.


Grassroots promotion is just silly. It's like those zealots that scream at people using Internet Explorer because they should be using FireFox (or maybe IceWeasel, eh?). I don't want my friends to think I'm a pinhead that cares too much about these idiotic, quasi-religious redefinitions of "freedom" (is there a more abused word in the lexicon?).


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Julien
post Apr 25 2007, 17:53
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 25 2007, 16:39) *
I don't want my friends to think I'm a pinhead that cares too much about these idiotic, quasi-religious redefinitions of "freedom" (is there a more abused word in the lexicon?).


If anything, these redefinitions are certainly not "idiotic". Now the applicability of those said definitions or the behavior of some of the believers of the "Holy Church of reinvented Freedom" is a whole different story.
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LANjackal
post Apr 25 2007, 18:36
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 25 2007, 10:39) *
QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 23 2007, 09:10) *
If you're talking about grassroots promotion, that's already been/being done with little effect.


Grassroots promotion is just silly. It's like those zealots that scream at people using Internet Explorer because they should be using FireFox (or maybe IceWeasel, eh?). I don't want my friends to think I'm a pinhead that cares too much about these idiotic, quasi-religious redefinitions of "freedom" (is there a more abused word in the lexicon?).
There's a fine line between balanced, reasonable advice and pure evangelism. I admit that it's often difficult to produce the former if you have a liking for a certain method, tool, etc.


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rjamorim
post Apr 26 2007, 04:43
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QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 25 2007, 14:36) *
There's a fine line between balanced, reasonable advice and pure evangelism. I admit that it's often difficult to produce the former if you have a liking for a certain method, tool, etc.


Very good point. That's why I avoid giving advice laugh.gif


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naylor83
post Apr 26 2007, 22:40
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I have only converted one person into a Vorbis user. My sister.

She was amazed when she heard how good oggs sounded at ~80 kbps, and on her small hard drive she could really use some extra space. So we re-ripped all her CDs. smile.gif


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Vorbis Q4, please. AoTuv b5, preferably.
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gameplaya15143
post Apr 26 2007, 23:07
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QUOTE (maikmerten @ Apr 22 2007, 09:38) *
There'll be a <video> tag in "HTML5" that is thought to enable video playback without any external plugins ( http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video ). Opera recently released an experimental build with Ogg Vorbis/Theora built in (go to http://labs.opera.com and download it there) and Mozilla also seems to opt for Ogg Vorbis/Theora ( http://developer.mozilla.org/presentations...7/the_open_web/ ).

[offtopic]I don't think there will ever be an HTML5. XHTML 2.0 is next up. Becides, the <object> tag can (theoretically) already embed anything you could ever want into a webpage. It's just that the browser isn't going to know what to do with type="application/ogg". It would be nice to see vorbis/theora support built into browsers though smile.gif .. as long as there is a firefox extension to let me choose if I really want to load it laugh.gif [/offtopic]


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turke
post Apr 27 2007, 00:36
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A question. Does it really worth to rip as ogg vorbis and confront the commercial standarts of digital audio. I mean, the article has its points. Me, as an example. I can't really say "this one sounds better" when i rip the same song in the same quality settings with different codecs. So why sould i bother myself and rip my cds in a widely unsupported and potentialy future unsupported format so that i can feel good "physcologically".

Of course i support free software, it is amazing something free coming in such great quality, but for us "non-commercial users" of digital audio, it doesn't seem like the most important issue. If i am to use some particular codec, it better come with big advantages that others don't have. Except a little more quality in sound (which i can't sense personally).
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Mr Bungle
post Apr 27 2007, 02:45
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QUOTE (turke @ Apr 27 2007, 09:36) *
A question. Does it really worth to rip as ogg vorbis and confront the commercial standarts of digital audio. I mean, the article has its points. Me, as an example. I can't really say "this one sounds better" when i rip the same song in the same quality settings with different codecs. So why sould i bother myself and rip my cds in a widely unsupported and potentialy future unsupported format so that i can feel good "physcologically".

Of course i support free software, it is amazing something free coming in such great quality, but for us "non-commercial users" of digital audio, it doesn't seem like the most important issue. If i am to use some particular codec, it better come with big advantages that others don't have. Except a little more quality in sound (which i can't sense personally).

You need to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages for yourself. Personally I use Ogg Vorbis because:

* It sounded superior (to mp3) at the time of testing
* It is supported in the hardware I use (and software of course)
* I support open/free software where I can

If these things aren't true and important for you, then I guess you won't be using it.

I'm not sure of the relevance of 'potentially future unsupported format'... for me anyway. Ogg Vorbis is supported in Linux, Rockbox (and therefore many portable players) and foobar2k - I don't see any of this support disappearing for a long time.


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Nikaki
post Apr 27 2007, 04:06
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I don't need Vorbis to have "a promising future" in order to use it smile.gif It's the best format for lossy encoding, it can be used on every computer, that's all what's needed.

I do not intend to let corporate politics affect my music enjoyment, thank you.
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vlada
post Apr 27 2007, 08:04
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gameplaya15143
The latest information I heard is that XHTML 2.0 is abandoned, W3C is now working with WHATWG on HTML 5.0. Sorry for off-topic...

turke
If there will be enough Ogg Vorbis users (and there is quite a lot of them already), it is very unlikely that the format won't be supported for a very long time. There is probably not a single player which doesn't support Ogg Vorbis.

This post has been edited by vlada: Apr 27 2007, 08:05
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LANjackal
post Apr 27 2007, 08:40
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 03:04) *
turke
If there will be enough Ogg Vorbis users (and there is quite a lot of them already), it is very unlikely that the format won't be supported for a very long time. There is probably not a single player which doesn't support Ogg Vorbis.
Ummm... neither iTunes, WMP11, nor 9/10 DAPs support the format natively.


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vlada
post Apr 27 2007, 12:17
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Sure, I forgot to mention I mean SW players. And for WMP, iTunes or RealPlayer you can easily add Ogg Vorbis support AFAIK.

Very soon, IMHO there will be no cellphones, PDAs nor PMPs. It will be all one device running a regular OS. So it will support formats depending on installed SW.

Btw. Ogg Vorbis is the only good quality lossy format, that is free from any fees for player makers. So it is only a matter of laziness (or company strategy) if they don't support Ogg Vorbis now. It used to be a problem of performance and memory (MP3 is easier to decode).
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LANjackal
post Apr 27 2007, 12:33
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 07:17) *
And for WMP, iTunes or RealPlayer you can easily add Ogg Vorbis support AFAIK.
Yeah. Guess how many users (outside of HA.org) enable 3rd party codec support on their software players. Not that many.

It's not so much about what is possible as much as it is about how easy it is. To an average user, it's much easier to just use what's already on their PC than figure out how to even get started with OGG, which usually requires a visit to this website (or another like it, if any exist) if you're going to do it correctly, not to mention downloading and installing more software. Compare this with inserting a CD and simply clicking "Rip" in WMP or iTunes.

QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 07:17) *
So it will support formats depending on installed SW.
That's a very good description of the present. Only Linux supports OGG as shipped.

QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 07:17) *
So it is only a matter of laziness (or company strategy) if they don't support Ogg Vorbis now.
The more things a manufacturer officially supports, the more tech support resources it needs, which increases its costs. Hence OEMs tend not to officially support codecs, etc. that aren't sufficiently widespread.


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eofor
post Apr 27 2007, 14:00
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 12:17) *
Ogg Vorbis is the only good quality lossy format, that is free from any fees for player makers. So it is only a matter of laziness (or company strategy) if they don't support Ogg Vorbis now. It used to be a problem of performance and memory (MP3 is easier to decode).


There are more considerations:
- the fees for the other formats are low (mp3) or very low (wma, aac) - low enough not to care much.
- for mp3, the fees will be zero somewhere after 2010, 2011 anyway when the last patents expire
- the dev support for the other formats is *perceived* (true or not, that's a matter for debate) as better
- ogg is claimed as patent-free. as discussed earlier on HA, it looks like it isn't on at least one count. if the shit hits the fan, the lawsuits will fall on the head of whatever ogg-using company with the most money. For mp3 and aac this is also possible, but the first casualty will be MPEG-LA, or Microsoft (see last month's news). For wma, it will be Microsoft. Xiph.org has no money, so it will be the biggest device maker with ogg support. Any legal department will be weary of it, because there's no big organization to back up its claims or take the first hit if the lawsuits come. Best wait until 2010 until these patents expire.

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Mercurio
post Apr 28 2007, 12:08
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As someone said, Ogg Vorbis is the standard for the OpenSource world (and all its developers laugh.gif ) . For an os audio software (player, ripper, editor, ....) supporting Vorbis is quite mandatory ^^.

And since the OSS world is quite healthy these days, Vorbis will not have any problem to survive in the foreseeable future, if it will remain open and if it will remain the (technologically) best open format: it doesn't need to be widely used.
The oss world doesn't follow strictly the rules of the market, it usually chooses simply the best open solution.

Also (ihmo) If an hw player manufacture (without the money for a mass marketing campaign) want to enter in the market using something different than cheap prices, it needs to go thought lead users that usually are geeks that know about Vorbis.

When mp3 will be free of patents the challenge will be (ihmo) on multichannel sound more than sound quality... How good Vorbis handles it?
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Hollunder
post Apr 28 2007, 12:55
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QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 27 2007, 13:33) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 07:17) *
So it will support formats depending on installed SW.
That's a very good description of the present. Only Linux supports OGG as shipped.


Not only linux, BSD too and probably every Desktop OS except Win/OSX. (Yeah I know, these two are the major players dry.gif )
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Nikaki
post Apr 28 2007, 15:48
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Win/OSX do not want Vorbis to exist. Seems like the main reason they don't support it, don't you think?
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LANjackal
post Apr 28 2007, 17:20
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QUOTE (Mercurio @ Apr 28 2007, 07:08) *
When mp3 will be free of patents the challenge will be (ihmo) on multichannel sound more than sound quality... How good Vorbis handles it?

I think seeing multichannel support as a motivation for future audio-only developments is mistaken, as there are vanishingly few multichannel only music releases and the technology serves little to no practical purpose for the majority of genres. The video world, clearly, is a lot different in that respect.


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vlada
post Apr 29 2007, 09:50
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QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 27 2007, 13:33) *
Yeah. Guess how many users (outside of HA.org) enable 3rd party codec support on their software players. Not that many.


I would say almost everyone installs 3rd party decoders. People want to play "DivX movies", so they usually install a codecpack, some of them include support for Ogg Vorbis. I hate codecpacks, but Haali Media Splitter and ffdshow will do a very good job on playing Ogg Vorbis/Theora in DirectShow players. But Xiph.org should give the users a clear advice: "Use this software".

QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 27 2007, 13:33) *
It's not so much about what is possible as much as it is about how easy it is. To an average user, it's much easier to just use what's already on their PC than figure out how to even get started with OGG, which usually requires a visit to this website (or another like it, if any exist) if you're going to do it correctly, not to mention downloading and installing more software. Compare this with inserting a CD and simply clicking "Rip" in WMP or iTunes.


Yes, you're absolutely right here. This is what I said and wrote already many times. Using Ogg Vorbis is to complicated, things need to be easier to attract more users.
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Kirby54925
post Apr 29 2007, 10:41
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 00:04) *
gameplaya15143
The latest information I heard is that XHTML 2.0 is abandoned, W3C is now working with WHATWG on HTML 5.0. Sorry for off-topic...

turke
If there will be enough Ogg Vorbis users (and there is quite a lot of them already), it is very unlikely that the format won't be supported for a very long time. There is probably not a single player which doesn't support Ogg Vorbis.



Hmmm... this may be OT, but a quick check of the W3C web site shows that a Working Group for XHTML 2.0 was created in March. I don't see anything about "abandonment" with regard to XHTML.

But yeah, back on topic, open source codecs never die... they just become inactive, collecting dust until some determined soul works and improves on the code. So while Vorbis may be losing market share to AAC, it won't totally disappear.
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2Bdecided
post Apr 30 2007, 09:52
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 29 2007, 09:50) *
I would say almost everyone installs 3rd party decoders.


You see, this is a perfect example of why you should think before you type.
In one short sentence, you have revealed so much about yourself - probably more than you ever intended.

While you intended to say "almost everyone installs 3rd party decoders", what you actually conveyed was "almost everyone I know installs 3rd party decoders, because I don't know any normal people at all. All my friends are highly computer literate. Most of them built their own PCs. I don't even talk to people who use WMA, especially those who use it while thinking it's mp3. And as for those people who play CDs in those really old things, er, CD players...!"

tongue.gif biggrin.gif

Sorry - couldn't resist.

There is a world out there that thinks "a music track on a computer" = "mp3". I think this will stay for a long time. I think people will be talking about "mp3s" long after the format is dead.

Just like people talk about "Hoovers" even if someone else made the vacuum cleaner.

Most normal people do not install codecs. Most normal people don't even install their own choice of media player unless someone else does it for them!

Cheers,
David.
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LANjackal
post Apr 30 2007, 10:19
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@2Bdecided: +1 to what you said. It's a common mistake by experts, because we think everyone else reasons as we do, given the same information we have.

Most of us could not imagine someone actually not caring about the quality of his/her music library even when presented with the facts and motivation to do so.

This site has just over 36000 members. How many digital audio users are there in the world, lol? We are very, very, alone sad.gif wink.gif

This post has been edited by LANjackal: Apr 30 2007, 10:20


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[JAZ]
post Apr 30 2007, 11:04
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 30 2007, 09:52) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 29 2007, 09:50) *

I would say almost everyone installs 3rd party decoders.

While you intended to say "almost everyone installs 3rd party decoders", what you actually conveyed was "almost everyone I know installs 3rd party decoders, because I don't know any normal people at all. All my friends are highly computer literate. Most of them built their own PCs. I don't even talk to people who use WMA, especially those who use it while thinking it's mp3. And as for those people who play CDs in those really old things, er, CD players...!"


I work as a technician doing maintenance in the labs of several schools and colleges, and I've been asked by several of them to install codec packs so they can see divx on the PC's. eMule is *really* known by the "normal people", and as such, .avis (divx) and .mp3's are the average user file.
Obviously,for the first, codec packs are required on a common PC.

So while people might not know how to install codec packs, what the codec packs contain, or even if there are better or worse codec packs, they *do* know that they have to install them.
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maikmerten
post Apr 30 2007, 12:23
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QUOTE (eofor @ Apr 27 2007, 13:00) *
ogg is claimed as patent-free. as discussed earlier on HA, it looks like it isn't on at least one count.


Could you back that up please? What's that "at least one count" patent?
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