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Ogg Vorbis in The Guardian (UK)
Tomb
post Apr 19 2007, 18:18
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I, like many, use the ogg vorbis encoder. This article in today's Guardian (UK) may be of interest. In summary the writer states that ogg is a music file format without support or hope. Any thoughts?
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LANjackal
post Apr 19 2007, 19:34
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QUOTE
If you look at the Top Ten Reviews list of portable audio players, 10 out of 10 play MP3 files out of the box, nine play WMA and only one plays Ogg: the Cowan iAudio X5. (The iRiver H10 has dropped Ogg support.) Of course, only two of these devices play AAC files, but one of those is the Apple iPod, which has the majority of the market.

It would be nice if all those crooning about the impending death of MP3 and WMA did not blatantly ignore the above fact. They both have wider support than anything else. MP3 isn't going away due to AAC or WMA any more than .txt files will disappear due to ODF/MS's Office formats.

QUOTE
However, Ogg still carries potential risks, because there is no guarantee that it doesn't infringe someone's patents.

True, but if that's really the case, how is it that FLAC is the most widely supported lossless format without any patent/IP issues? Or is that because its development predates that of formats from incumbents (WMA Lossless, ALAC)?

I have nothing against Ogg, the tests clearly show it's an excellent format. Unfortunately, achieving widespread support is more than a simple academic exercise that produces the best quality output (a point lost on many developers). From my viewpoint, FLAC rose to the top in the lossless category primarily because it was actively developed and promoted before similar incumbent projects (until just recently, lossless was pretty much ignored by MS and Apple, MS had a format in name only).

Ogg, on the other hand, is "just another" (in the marketing sense) lossy format competing against strongly entrenched MP3, WMA and AAC which are natively supported by the 2 primary preinstalled media players on the market. Neither of those 2 natively support Ogg, and they're unlikely ever to, either. The average user has to go pretty far out of his way to use the format, relative to the Big 3 codecs. I won't even get into the tagging/frontend issues, since the average person investigating the format probably wouldn't get that far.

As harsh as it may seem, while the codec will continue to exist and (sporadically, it seems) developed, I can't say I see much hope for it becoming mainstream either. However, I don't think it will suffer the same fate of being consigned to the abyss like MPC (those who say otherwise are just in denial), RealAudio, and ATRAC3

This post has been edited by LANjackal: Apr 19 2007, 19:35


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rjamorim
post Apr 19 2007, 22:58
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QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 19 2007, 15:34) *
True, but if that's really the case, how is it that FLAC is the most widely supported lossless format without any patent/IP issues?


Maybe because it didn't become mainstream enough yet for interested (mischievous?) people to try to find patents inside it?

And if someone already found a patent he owns, he might be waiting for larger market acceptance. If he sued now, he would probably be able to catch nullsoft and a couple other big fish. He should at least until Apple includes it in Leopard, if he really wants profit.

If only the patent world was that linear and predictable as you paint it sad.gif

QUOTE (ChesterB @ Apr 19 2007, 16:27) *
and now we are waiting for SV8. Just take a look here http://trac.musepack.net/trac/timeline


We are waiting for SV8 since 2000.

But it wouldn't make any difference if it arrived now, anyway. Musepack stagnated while all other formats improved by leaps and bounds. It's no longer the undisputed champion at either quality or encoding speed. It's just an obscure format with shitty support.

QUOTE
but is perfect for PC playback


...just like any other format out there. Yes, it is faster, but that should only be noticeable if your computer is 10 years old or older.

Besides, it's not that perfect for PC playback. If I take MPC files to a friend's computer, we'll have to start by hunting software that supports it, since chances are nearly 100% that his software won't. If I take MP3s, chances are nearly 100% that we'll start enjoying music right away.

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Apr 20 2007, 00:07


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jcoalson
post Apr 20 2007, 01:21
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 19 2007, 16:58) *
QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 19 2007, 15:34) *
True, but if that's really the case, how is it that FLAC is the most widely supported lossless format without any patent/IP issues?

Maybe because it didn't become mainstream enough yet for interested (mischievous?) people to try to find patents inside it?

And if someone already found a patent he owns, he might be waiting for larger market acceptance. If he sued now, he would probably be able to catch nullsoft and a couple other big fish. He should at least until Apple includes it in Leopard, if he really wants profit.

practically every method in FLAC is also in ALAC, which FLAC predates by several years. so if anyone is submarining then even Apple is not a big enough fish.
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rjamorim
post Apr 23 2007, 11:54
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QUOTE (jcoalson @ Apr 19 2007, 21:21) *
QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 19 2007, 16:58) *
QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 19 2007, 15:34) *
True, but if that's really the case, how is it that FLAC is the most widely supported lossless format without any patent/IP issues?

Maybe because it didn't become mainstream enough yet for interested (mischievous?) people to try to find patents inside it?

And if someone already found a patent he owns, he might be waiting for larger market acceptance. If he sued now, he would probably be able to catch nullsoft and a couple other big fish. He should at least until Apple includes it in Leopard, if he really wants profit.

practically every method in FLAC is also in ALAC, which FLAC predates by several years. so if anyone is submarining then even Apple is not a big enough fish.


Yeah, yeah. The difference is that Apple never released source code or specifications on ALAC. For someone to create a case against it, he'll either have to subpoena Apple into showing him the sources, or base his allegations on a reverse engineered decoder.


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Posts in this topic
- Tomb   Ogg Vorbis in The Guardian (UK)   Apr 19 2007, 18:18
- - naylor83   QUOTE (Tomb @ Apr 19 2007, 19:18) Any tho...   Apr 19 2007, 18:22
- - Remedial Sound   I also don't agree with the quote (millions of...   Apr 19 2007, 19:20
|- - Nick E   QUOTE (Remedial Sound @ Apr 19 2007, 12:2...   Apr 19 2007, 19:44
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (Nick E @ Apr 19 2007, 14:44) QUOTE...   Apr 19 2007, 20:32
|- - naylor83   Well, I guess, for me all that matters is that the...   Apr 19 2007, 22:16
- - LANjackal   QUOTE If you look at the Top Ten Reviews list of p...   Apr 19 2007, 19:34
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 19 2007, 15:34) Tr...   Apr 19 2007, 22:58
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 19 2007, 16:58) QUO...   Apr 20 2007, 01:21
||- - rjamorim   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Apr 19 2007, 21:21) QUO...   Apr 23 2007, 11:54
||- - LANjackal   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 23 2007, 06:54) Yea...   Apr 23 2007, 13:10
|||- - rjamorim   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 23 2007, 09:10) If...   Apr 25 2007, 15:39
||||- - Julien   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 25 2007, 16:39) I d...   Apr 25 2007, 17:53
||||- - LANjackal   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 25 2007, 10:39) QUO...   Apr 25 2007, 18:36
||||- - rjamorim   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 25 2007, 14:36) Th...   Apr 26 2007, 04:43
|||- - sonytp50   QUOTE (Rio @ Apr 23 2007, 07:05) We just ...   May 8 2007, 15:54
||- - jcoalson   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 23 2007, 05:54) QUO...   May 8 2007, 22:47
|- - aabxx   QUOTE Besides, it's not that perfect for PC pl...   May 16 2007, 01:44
- - ChesterB   Sorry for the off-topic, but why do you guys talk ...   Apr 19 2007, 20:27
- - gameplaya15143   QUOTE (Tomb @ Apr 19 2007, 13:18) ogg is ...   Apr 19 2007, 22:15
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Apr 19 2007, 17:1...   Apr 19 2007, 22:51
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Apr 19 2007, 18:1...   Apr 20 2007, 00:02
|- - Squeller   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 19 2007, 15:02) In ...   Apr 22 2007, 11:58
- - Silversight   QUOTE An industry giant could drive support for Og...   Apr 20 2007, 00:12
|- - Maurits   QUOTE (Silversight @ Apr 19 2007, 23:12) ...   Apr 20 2007, 01:31
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (Maurits @ Apr 19 2007, 20:31) Ther...   Apr 20 2007, 03:17
- - PatchWorKs   QUOTE (Silversight @ Apr 20 2007, 01:12) ...   Apr 20 2007, 10:32
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Apr 20 2007, 06:32) S...   Apr 20 2007, 10:55
|- - niktheblak   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 20 2007, 12:55) Cou...   Apr 20 2007, 11:46
- - damaki   QUOTE (Squeller @ Apr 22 2007, 11:58) The...   Apr 22 2007, 12:52
- - maikmerten   Well, actually I think such DAP centric discussion...   Apr 22 2007, 14:38
- - Rio   Vorbis has just added one follower, and that's...   Apr 23 2007, 12:05
- - sketchy_c   My few personal ~128 kbps ABC/HR tests have given ...   Apr 23 2007, 13:14
- - naylor83   I have only converted one person into a Vorbis use...   Apr 26 2007, 22:40
- - gameplaya15143   QUOTE (maikmerten @ Apr 22 2007, 09:38) T...   Apr 26 2007, 23:07
- - turke   A question. Does it really worth to rip as ogg vor...   Apr 27 2007, 00:36
|- - Mr Bungle   QUOTE (turke @ Apr 27 2007, 09:36) A ques...   Apr 27 2007, 02:45
- - Nikaki   I don't need Vorbis to have "a promising ...   Apr 27 2007, 04:06
- - vlada   gameplaya15143 The latest information I heard is t...   Apr 27 2007, 08:04
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 03:04) turke ...   Apr 27 2007, 08:40
|- - Kirby54925   QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 00:04) gamepl...   Apr 29 2007, 10:41
- - vlada   Sure, I forgot to mention I mean SW players. And f...   Apr 27 2007, 12:17
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 07:17) And fo...   Apr 27 2007, 12:33
||- - vlada   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 27 2007, 13:33) Ye...   Apr 29 2007, 09:50
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 29 2007, 09:50) I woul...   Apr 30 2007, 09:52
||- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 30 2007, 09:52) QU...   Apr 30 2007, 11:04
|- - eofor   QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 27 2007, 12:17) Ogg Vo...   Apr 27 2007, 14:00
|- - maikmerten   QUOTE (eofor @ Apr 27 2007, 13:00) ogg is...   Apr 30 2007, 12:23
- - Mercurio   As someone said, Ogg Vorbis is the standard for th...   Apr 28 2007, 12:08
|- - LANjackal   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Apr 28 2007, 07:08) Whe...   Apr 28 2007, 17:20
|- - aabxx   QUOTE (Mercurio @ Apr 28 2007, 03:08) And...   Jun 1 2007, 21:53
- - Hollunder   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Apr 27 2007, 13:33) QU...   Apr 28 2007, 12:55
- - Nikaki   Win/OSX do not want Vorbis to exist. Seems like th...   Apr 28 2007, 15:48
- - LANjackal   @2Bdecided: +1 to what you said. It's a common...   Apr 30 2007, 10:19
- - vlada   2Bdecided Well, yes you're partially ri...   Apr 30 2007, 16:48
- - Squeller   I have a strong reason rather to encode to nero aa...   May 7 2007, 13:49
- - Mercurio   On osnews there is a "Review: The OGG-Compati...   May 7 2007, 14:31
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Mercurio @ May 7 2007, 10:31) I th...   May 7 2007, 17:17
|- - Mercurio   QUOTE (rjamorim @ May 7 2007, 08:17) Don...   May 8 2007, 11:58
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Mercurio @ May 8 2007, 07:58) (but...   May 8 2007, 15:45
|- - Mercurio   QUOTE (rjamorim @ May 8 2007, 06:45) Yes....   May 8 2007, 16:32
|- - sonytp50   QUOTE The programmer of mp3splt is working to a gu...   May 8 2007, 16:59
- - Maurits   Well, if for your definition of "high quality...   May 8 2007, 12:20
- - Mercurio   Here at Hydrogenaudio there are a lot of sophists ...   May 8 2007, 15:06
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (sonytp50 @ May 8 2007, 11:54) In m...   May 9 2007, 00:21
|- - sonytp50   QUOTE (rjamorim @ May 8 2007, 23:21) Fine...   May 9 2007, 08:09
|- - pepoluan   QUOTE (sonytp50 @ May 9 2007, 14:09) QUOT...   May 16 2007, 08:49
- - jcoalson   but there's no need to wait, the ALAC decoder ...   May 9 2007, 04:43
- - pepoluan   This thread is rapidly converging with another thr...   May 19 2007, 06:36
- - hybridfan   "Ogg is still a long way behind other formats...   Jul 11 2007, 11:57


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