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16bit vs 24bit, Rubbish or Truth?
Bourne
post Mar 27 2007, 04:02
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This post has been edited by Bourne: Apr 2 2008, 19:26
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Pandabear
post Mar 30 2007, 03:12
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Bourne - everyone's ears develop at their own pace. Applied practice of reliable listening tests with controlled data, one audio sample against another, is needed to begin to pick up fine differences such as bit depth nuances.

Dan Heend is a digital recording pioneer who's article is still relevant today. It's hard to find good teachers in this field these days but Dan is apparently one of them. I'm interested to hear what he has to say on the topic of jitter.

QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 27 2007, 05:00) *
It's a load of pseudo science. The guy has a hobbyists interest, has heard some audiophile bull, but has no understanding of the theory.

Of course circa 1990 8-bit audio sounded awful. It was sampled at goodness know what rate, typically with no dithering, no anti-alias filters on record, and no anti-image filters on playback.

However, Correctly generated 44.1kHz sampled 8-bit audio (e.g. from foobar set to convert to 8-bits) has the one and only problem that's created by having too low a resolution: noise. No distortion, no loss of fine detail, no grittiness or grainy character - just background noise, plain and simple. Human listeners can hear through a surprising amount of noise.

_any_ correctly sampled digital audio has the same issues - a bandwidth limit and a noise limit. 16-bit audio has noise at -96dB FS RMS.

I'm sure you're aware of the extensive threads in the FAQ that cover this subject in horrendous detail.

Of course, given the limitations and issues with field recording, the lower noise floor of 24-bit digital audio is genuinely useful. You can set your levels conservatively, and easily avoid clipping while keeping everything way above the digital noise floor. With very good microphones and pre-amps, and a need to record without compression or processing or even a perfect idea of the levels which will hit the microphone, and wishing to avoiding clipping, 16-bits could be considered an issue.

Cheers,
David.

EDIT: Reading down, this person doesn't understand dither. He's bought the bogus argument that is "masks" distortion, rather than eliminating it. No wonder he's so confused.

EDIT2: Oh dear, he thinks Nyquist is something to do with the limits of human hearing. He thinks noise shaped dither is useful because the noise may be later filtered out.

EDIT3: And it's rather out of date. I think most of us are now managing to run IE and MS Office without it preventing us using our PCs successfully for audio!


No one understands what you've written here.
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Posts in this topic
- Bourne   16bit vs 24bit   Mar 27 2007, 04:02
- - DigitalMan   Hmm, very long article. Seems to be a collection ...   Mar 27 2007, 04:20
- - Bourne   the very topic of the link... he is claiming that...   Mar 27 2007, 04:25
- - greynol   This has been covered to death on this forum alrea...   Mar 27 2007, 09:56
- - 2Bdecided   It's a load of pseudo science. The guy has a h...   Mar 27 2007, 10:00
|- - ccryder   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 27 2007, 04:00) It...   Jul 5 2008, 07:31
|- - Canar   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 4 2008, 23:31) Belie...   Jul 5 2008, 19:11
- - Bourne   @greynol I'm not starting a topic on that sub...   Mar 27 2007, 23:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Bourne @ Mar 27 2007, 15:31) @grey...   Mar 28 2007, 20:45
|- - chelgrian   QUOTE (Bourne @ Mar 27 2007, 23:31) I...   Mar 28 2007, 21:23
- - benski   It appears the site (and the article) are oriented...   Mar 28 2007, 22:08
- - 2Bdecided   Hang on a second benski, There's no argument ...   Mar 29 2007, 11:48
- - Filburt   Hmm, I just skimmed the first part, but the argume...   Mar 29 2007, 20:51
- - AndyH-ha   Who, believing in the gods, and their work in the...   Mar 29 2007, 21:02
- - Pandabear   Bourne - everyone's ears develop at their own ...   Mar 30 2007, 03:12
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Pandabear @ Mar 29 2007, 22:12) No...   Mar 30 2007, 15:45
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (Pandabear @ Mar 30 2007, 02:12) No...   Mar 30 2007, 16:43
- - AndyH-ha   I suspect most of us who visit here are capable of...   Mar 30 2007, 05:49
- - pdq   Let's see, I could believe David Robinson, or ...   Jul 5 2008, 15:52
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 5 2008, 10:52) Let's...   Jul 7 2008, 18:41
- - Mike Giacomelli   I was curious what got Dan Heend so upset after al...   Jul 5 2008, 16:07
- - pdq   "A passage that is 6dB louder than another pa...   Jul 5 2008, 16:22
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 5 2008, 11:22) "A p...   Jul 5 2008, 16:31
||- - pdq   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Jul 5 2008, 11:3...   Jul 5 2008, 16:35
|- - ccryder   QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 5 2008, 10:22) "A p...   Jul 6 2008, 09:04
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 10:04) http:...   Jul 6 2008, 11:17
||- - MichaelW   Cursed are the peacemakers, for they shall be beat...   Jul 6 2008, 12:11
|- - pdq   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 04:04) QUOTE...   Jul 6 2008, 12:21
- - sld   So it IS possible for people who get their Theory ...   Jul 5 2008, 17:56
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (sld @ Jul 5 2008, 18:56) So it IS ...   Jul 5 2008, 19:12
|- - ccryder   QUOTE ' date='Jul 5 2008, 13:12' post=...   Jul 6 2008, 10:43
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 19:43) Might...   Jul 6 2008, 12:50
||- - ccryder   QUOTE (MLXXX @ Jul 6 2008, 06:50) QUOTE (...   Jul 6 2008, 13:35
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 05:43) Regar...   Jul 6 2008, 17:05
- - AndyH-ha   QUOTE One might get a greater appreciation for wha...   Jul 6 2008, 20:23
- - Roseval   The question of sampling rate and bit depth are a ...   Jul 6 2008, 21:11
|- - ccryder   QUOTE (Roseval @ Jul 6 2008, 15:11) The q...   Jul 6 2008, 23:19
|- - Dynamic   Edit: I started typing this before ccryder's r...   Jul 7 2008, 00:34
- - hellokeith   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 17:19) There...   Jul 7 2008, 01:49
- - AndyH-ha   Aside from the fact that it is almost always easy ...   Jul 7 2008, 05:55
|- - ccryder   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 6 2008, 23:55)...   Jul 7 2008, 08:13
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 20:13) #2, t...   Jul 7 2008, 10:38
||- - ccryder   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jul 7 2008, 04:38) QUOT...   Jul 7 2008, 11:58
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 03:13) The r...   Jul 7 2008, 18:51
|- - euphonic   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 00:13) #2, t...   Jul 7 2008, 23:56
|- - ccryder   OK, Gonna try once more to get some of you to unde...   Jul 8 2008, 05:31
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 00:31) Is my...   Jul 8 2008, 17:29
|- - ccryder   QUOTE (euphonic @ Jul 7 2008, 17:56) This...   Jul 8 2008, 05:46
|- - ccryder   The actual realized signal to noise ratio of the r...   Jul 8 2008, 06:27
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 05:46) Reall...   Jul 8 2008, 07:54
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 06:46) QUOTE...   Jul 8 2008, 09:27
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 14:19) a) ...   Jul 7 2008, 08:05
|- - ccryder   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Jul 7 2008, 02:05) QU...   Jul 7 2008, 08:51
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 09:51) That ...   Jul 7 2008, 10:14
|- - ccryder   I never said a word about dither in my last post. ...   Jul 7 2008, 11:47
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 12:47) I nev...   Jul 7 2008, 13:15
- - AndyH-ha   Expectation and belief can, and have repeatedly be...   Jul 7 2008, 12:24
- - AndyH-ha   There is a lot of (mostly one-sided) talk about ra...   Jul 7 2008, 22:31
- - SebastianG   QUOTE Simply put, just about every noise shaping a...   Jul 8 2008, 09:49
- - MLXXX   QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 14:31) Botto...   Jul 8 2008, 13:50
- - AndyH-ha   “properly noise shaped dither” (what I wrote) is n...   Jul 9 2008, 12:42
|- - SebastianG   Hi Andy! QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 9 20...   Jul 9 2008, 14:07
- - AndyH-ha   Here is my ignorance showing. How does one “bit sh...   Jul 9 2008, 22:08
- - Nick.C   If a signal with an amplitude of less than or equa...   Jul 9 2008, 22:12
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Jul 10 2008, 10:12) If a ...   Jul 10 2008, 07:16
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jul 10 2008, 07:16) Doe...   Jul 10 2008, 08:00
- - Chromatix   Let's inject some common sense in to this, sha...   Jul 10 2008, 13:52
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (Chromatix @ Jul 10 2008, 14:52) .....   Jul 10 2008, 15:47
- - Axon   Just to throw another log on the fire: My phono pr...   Jul 10 2008, 16:52
|- - Canar   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 10 2008, 08:52) Just to...   Jul 10 2008, 17:12
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 10 2008, 11:52) Just to...   Jul 10 2008, 17:28
- - Axon   About 10, but still.   Jul 10 2008, 17:33
- - hellokeith   QUOTE (Chromatix @ Jul 10 2008, 07:52) I ...   Jul 10 2008, 19:25
- - greynol   C'mon now. This can be handled via PM. Let...   Jul 10 2008, 19:30
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (hellokeith @ Jul 10 2008, 10:25) H...   Jul 10 2008, 21:08
- - Chromatix   Those in-car numbers look vaguely sensible to me. ...   Jul 11 2008, 11:31
- - 2Bdecided   The very best psychoacoustic experiments aim for 2...   Jul 14 2008, 16:07


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