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What is going on with Vorbis? (or Xiph overall)
rjamorim
post Mar 3 2007, 16:03
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Today I was checking RareWares' links page to find broken links, and happened upon Xiph's page. I noticed the "news" there were 3-4 years old.

So I was wondering, does anyone, by any chance, know what is going on there? Are they working on Vorbis2, or Tarkin, or Theora? Have they disbanded and only the web pages remain? I remember that in Emmett's time, he would feed us news non-stop, mostly from #vorbis (he was a little too loud, matter of factly :B). Now, we listen nothing but crickets.

Do we have some insider here that knows if something is going on there, at all? Maybe Coalson or Valin?

And what the hell is Emmett up to anyway?

Thanks for any info.

R.


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vlada
post Mar 4 2007, 04:29
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Do you remember this thread?
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Emmett
post Mar 4 2007, 06:02
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QUOTE (vlada @ Mar 3 2007, 19:29) *
Do you remember this thread?


I don't, I wasn't around for it. It looks like it starts out with the same kind of thing I keep hearing (Xiph is doing nothing), but ends with a reality (Xiph isn't working on the precise thing you want them to work on). Maybe they're doing great stuff and they're just not really talking about it -- This isn't really a new condition at Xiph. It is the way things are, and the way things have been for a while.

Like I said, I'm a lot more interested in the last mile. I'm interested in working on the toolchain that gets us away from things like DirectShow filters and specific versions of specific applications using specific libraries on specific platforms. It's just not helpful. When I say, 'I want to play this file,' I need to have an answer like, 'You want Application X, you can get it at Website X, and there are copies there for Windows, OS X and Linux.'

I also desperately want that answer to be correct and for the person asking the question to be satisfied with the output of the application. You can't please everyone all the time, but if you have decent last-mile solutions that don't require people to actually know what muxing is, what DirectShow filters are and the difference between something called 'speex' and something called 'granulepos,' these tiny issues from the software-authoring stages of the game become less relevant.

I'll say this again, because I want this to be crystal-clear -- I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing contest with Xiph over your favorite potential feature being implemented in their official releases. I'm a lot more interested in bringing this technology to a place where it's easy for people to author and distribute content with these open and free technologies, and a place where it's easy for people to obtain and view this content.

There's a point at which you have to work with the best of what's there, and not get heavily involved in what I would consider to be codebase minutiae. At the end of the day, it affects me as a producer to the tune of 'nothing,' and to people that view my product to the tune of 'nothing.' It is a binary switch -- It either works or it doesn't, and I'm interested in making it work.

The demands of my company and other companies I work with are not the same demands of most codehackers and specification-junkies. We need authoring tools that work 100% of the time with a minimum investment of time and energy. We cannot be reasonably expected to compile things or hunt for stuff on rarewares for hours, hoping we've got the right lib.

I hope this at least puts some things in perspective in terms of the kind of things I want to work on, and I'm hoping to find a couple of devs interested in helping me out. The last mile is more important than you probably think, and there's a great big world out there of people to whom only the last mile is important.

Emmett
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clb3092
post Mar 4 2007, 09:04
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You know, even if Xiph has slipped into coma OGG oddly enough still seems to be vital and progressing in a very odd way. This seems to be for two reasons. First reason is because of Autovo, who has managed to evolve the codec into something very interesting. Some people seem to think that his changes are really more minor tuning than a technical "revolution." Other people seem to think just the opposite. I don't care about people's opinion of what Autovo has done. I just know that the last version sounds great! When I play back q8.5 recordings on my audio U3 I can hear things like the natural tones of the instruments of great jazz players such as Charlie Mingus or Winston Marsillas. It sure as hell kicks MP3's ass and I honestly can't say if 320kbs AAC is better. No bad for a free lossy codec.

The other reason is the growing MP3 licensing meltdown. Thompson's has raised their licensing fees to unreasonable levels for a pretty crappy codec, MP3. Add to that the recent judgment against Microsoft for 1.6 billion dollars won by lucent. So on top of paying through the nose for licensing crappy mp3 technology, you might still have to pay even more to lucent!!!! Not to mention the possibility that lucent might have a legal claim on YOUR future earnings even though you thought that you legally licensed mp3!!

This IS the sort of environment that can make a content producers find out if the rumors about some guy half way across the planet does have a better way of doing things.
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Posts in this topic
- rjamorim   What is going on with Vorbis? (or Xiph overall)   Mar 3 2007, 16:03
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE And what the hell is Emmett up to anyway? ...   Mar 3 2007, 20:12
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Mar 3 2007, 16:12) He ...   Mar 3 2007, 20:22
- - jorsol   Well I try to follow the progress in Xiph by the s...   Mar 3 2007, 20:47
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (jorsol @ Mar 3 2007, 16:47) and be...   Mar 3 2007, 21:11
||- - jaybeee   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Mar 3 2007, 20:11) Shit...   Mar 3 2007, 21:19
||- - Lyx   QUOTE (jaybeee @ Mar 3 2007, 21:19) QUOTE...   Mar 3 2007, 21:22
|- - kjoonlee   QUOTE (jorsol @ Mar 3 2007, 20:47) Vorbis...   Mar 4 2007, 11:51
|- - xiphmont   QUOTE (kjoonlee @ Mar 4 2007, 06:51) QUOT...   May 11 2007, 23:43
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (xiphmont @ May 12 2007, 00:43) The...   May 13 2007, 17:48
- - Emmett   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Mar 3 2007, 07:03) And ...   Mar 3 2007, 23:59
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Emmett @ Mar 3 2007, 19:59) Maybe ...   Mar 4 2007, 00:17
|- - Emmett   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Mar 3 2007, 15:17) Plan...   Mar 4 2007, 01:22
- - vlada   Do you remember this thread?   Mar 4 2007, 04:29
|- - Emmett   QUOTE (vlada @ Mar 3 2007, 19:29) Do you ...   Mar 4 2007, 06:02
||- - clb3092   You know, even if Xiph has slipped into coma OGG o...   Mar 4 2007, 09:04
||- - eofor   QUOTE (clb3092 @ Mar 4 2007, 09:04) I jus...   Mar 4 2007, 13:07
||- - clb3092   QUOTE (eofor @ Mar 4 2007, 04:07) QUOTE (...   Mar 5 2007, 20:27
||- - Lyx   QUOTE (clb3092 @ Mar 5 2007, 20:27) I did...   Mar 5 2007, 21:37
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (vlada @ Mar 4 2007, 00:29) Do you ...   Mar 4 2007, 13:24
- - Firon   The problem with having aoTuV is that it's not...   Mar 4 2007, 09:12
- - vlada   Well it was me, ho stated that the projects are de...   Mar 4 2007, 14:11
- - Lyx   I made experience with that last-mile thing issue ...   Mar 4 2007, 14:17
- - jorsol   QUOTE (kjoonlee @ Mar 4 2007, 04:51) QUOT...   Mar 4 2007, 18:24
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (jorsol @ Mar 5 2007, 02:24) Ghost ...   Mar 16 2007, 00:26
- - PatchWorKs   The most active Xiph project nowdays seems to be T...   Mar 4 2007, 18:35
|- - Kim_C   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Mar 4 2007, 19:35) Th...   Mar 4 2007, 20:08
|- - Emmett   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Mar 4 2007, 09:35) BT...   Mar 4 2007, 20:16
- - Lych   With all due respect to Vorbis, Theora, etc. Xiph ...   Mar 5 2007, 01:26
- - Firon   QUOTE (Lyx @ Mar 4 2007, 09:17) I doubt t...   Mar 5 2007, 05:52
- - spoon   The last thing Ogg Vorbis needs now is Ogg Vorbis ...   Mar 5 2007, 10:21
|- - Kef   QUOTE (spoon @ Mar 5 2007, 11:21) The las...   Mar 5 2007, 11:45
|- - eofor   As a successor/alternative to mp3, Vorbis has been...   Mar 5 2007, 14:07
- - vinnie97   Yea, all this doom and gloom about Vorbis is disco...   Mar 5 2007, 14:29
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE Since Vorbis is an open format, 3rd party su...   Mar 5 2007, 21:21
- - SebastianG   Hi! I just wanted to say there's currently...   Mar 5 2007, 22:37
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Mar 5 2007, 18:37) Hi...   Mar 12 2007, 23:17
- - Firon   Get someone besides Monty to merge aoyumi's wo...   Mar 6 2007, 07:30
- - gameplaya15143   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Mar 5 2007, 16:37) mu...   Mar 8 2007, 19:59
- - fpi   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Mar 3 2007, 09:03) Toda...   Mar 15 2007, 12:08
- - Justin Ruggles   I see that Xiph is mentoring projects for this yea...   Mar 17 2007, 23:39
- - 3ngel   Hi to all, i was just searching for information ab...   Mar 21 2007, 11:58
- - Triza   I wish Monty would be like Josh for FLAC. The latt...   Mar 22 2007, 22:41
|- - dyneq   QUOTE (Triza @ Mar 22 2007, 17:41) I wish...   Mar 23 2007, 00:08
|- - MedO   QUOTE (Triza @ Mar 22 2007, 22:41) ...Mon...   Mar 23 2007, 11:46
|- - aabxx   Why the heck is anyone complaining? Trust me when...   Apr 6 2007, 16:22
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (aabxx @ Apr 6 2007, 12:22) you mig...   Apr 6 2007, 17:18
|- - Nick E   QUOTE (aabxx @ Apr 6 2007, 09:22) And the...   Apr 7 2007, 16:02
- - vlada   I think this is one of the major problems. There a...   Apr 7 2007, 16:39
- - gameplaya15143   QUOTE (aabxx @ Apr 6 2007, 11:22) it will...   Apr 12 2007, 23:04
- - Synthetic Soul   Discussion about the Rarewares redesign moved to t...   Apr 14 2007, 06:54
- - maikmerten   As already said xiph.org is understaffed - and tho...   Apr 23 2007, 15:57
- - spoon   >This sadly means that there's apparently l...   Apr 23 2007, 19:48
- - vlada   maikmerten I absolutely agree with everything you ...   Apr 24 2007, 18:11
- - spoon   >AoTuV an official Xiph...balked at that You j...   May 13 2007, 17:04
- - vlada   An interesting new initiative: Play Ogg.   May 18 2007, 15:41
- - pepoluan   That's good news! Thanks for the link. I...   May 18 2007, 16:21
|- - SwiftBiscuit   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 18 2007, 11:21) I...   May 18 2007, 20:09
|- - Nick E   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 18 2007, 09:21) Tha...   May 20 2007, 17:43
|- - pepoluan   QUOTE (Nick E @ May 20 2007, 23:43) What ...   May 21 2007, 07:23
- - Fandango   On the http://playogg.org/ page I see no links to ...   May 18 2007, 20:25
|- - Demetris   QUOTE (Fandango @ May 18 2007, 22:25) [.....   May 18 2007, 22:32
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (Demetris @ May 18 2007, 23:32) So,...   May 19 2007, 00:30
- - vlada   Demetris> IMO both sentences are correct. It de...   May 19 2007, 04:22
- - pepoluan   But leaving out Winamp, which is the de facto most...   May 19 2007, 06:18
|- - sonytp50   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 19 2007, 05:18) But...   May 22 2007, 10:44
|- - vlada   QUOTE (sonytp50 @ May 22 2007, 11:44) Als...   May 24 2007, 10:59
- - jorsol   I think that they choose VLC for various reasons.....   May 19 2007, 06:59
|- - vlada   QUOTE (jorsol @ May 19 2007, 07:59) QUOTE...   May 19 2007, 18:15
- - pepoluan   Okay, you have a point there, jorsol.   May 19 2007, 07:44
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 19 2007, 08:44) Oka...   May 19 2007, 17:10
- - PatchWorKs   I still remember this one too... In my opinion vo...   May 19 2007, 08:50
- - Demetris   http://oggvorbis.fc2web.com/link.html It has two ...   May 19 2007, 21:52
|- - haregoo   QUOTE (Demetris @ May 20 2007, 05:52) Wha...   May 20 2007, 03:08
- - Enig123   Ogg community it says. Although I know little Japa...   May 20 2007, 01:13
- - Demetris   Enig123 and haregoo, thanks for the answers! :...   May 20 2007, 13:07
- - vlada   Nick E There are some IE compatibility hacks in th...   May 21 2007, 18:58
- - pepoluan   ... and the "Play Ogg" campaign is now m...   May 22 2007, 07:23
- - tempnegro   could of swore I had a post in here   May 23 2007, 02:03
- - pepoluan   See this: Wired has picked up on the Play Ogg ini...   May 23 2007, 19:32
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 23 2007, 20:32) Wir...   May 23 2007, 23:12
- - gameplaya15143   QUOTE (jorsol @ May 19 2007, 01:59) ...Wi...   May 23 2007, 20:18
- - ckjnigel   Well, most people don't know about VBR and why...   May 24 2007, 16:26
|- - pepoluan   QUOTE (ckjnigel @ May 24 2007, 22:26) Wel...   May 25 2007, 09:23
- - askoff   I think that Vorbis has quite good support already...   May 25 2007, 11:19
- - Spikey   Well, for my money, I find the 'ease of encodi...   May 26 2007, 04:29
|- - vinnie97   QUOTE (Spikey @ May 25 2007, 19:29) If av...   May 26 2007, 11:21
|- - Junon   QUOTE (Spikey @ May 26 2007, 05:29) Incid...   May 26 2007, 15:07
|- - MedO   QUOTE (Junon @ May 26 2007, 16:07) He...   May 27 2007, 15:33
- - pepoluan   Just an anecdote from me: People keep asking me t...   May 27 2007, 17:06
- - Mercurio   QUOTE I think my greatest disappointment is that N...   May 28 2007, 11:22
|- - pepoluan   QUOTE (Mercurio @ May 28 2007, 17:22) QUO...   May 28 2007, 12:34
|- - gottkaiser   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 28 2007, 13:34) Is ...   May 28 2007, 12:45
|- - pepoluan   QUOTE (gottkaiser @ May 28 2007, 18:45) Q...   May 28 2007, 13:02
|- - eofor   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 28 2007, 13:02) QUO...   May 29 2007, 10:50
- - pepoluan   Why Audio Format Matters   May 29 2007, 10:18
- - bawjaws   I don't know if this has been mentioned alread...   May 29 2007, 12:00
|- - eofor   If Ogg Vorbis/Theora goes into HTML 5, that means ...   May 29 2007, 12:45
- - TREX6662k6   lol, no patents? I find that hard to imagine espec...   May 29 2007, 12:59
- - bawjaws   Theora *is* patented. Google or Wikipedia for more...   May 29 2007, 13:18
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