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Burrrn dithering options etc., should I leave them on default?
leokennis
post Feb 9 2007, 11:39
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Hello,

I downloaded Burrrn today because it seemed like a really simple, focussed but good burning app. I wanted to burn my first album from a bunch of FLAC files and noticed all the ReplayGain, Dithering etc. options. I was in dubio:

1-There were default options (medium dithering etc.), and since I'm no audio-expert of any kind I wanted to trust the person that made Burrn that he put those options on default for a reason...

2-But: if I buy the album in store, there wouldn't be any dithering either or not? And if there would be, it would already be in the FLAC's so there would be no reason to add it another time would there?

So what do the "professionals" here do? Add dithering and stuff or not?


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dios-mt
post Feb 9 2007, 11:52
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You should add dither after each processing of audio data.
When you burn the audio data just as it has been on the original CD (like in your flac file) you do not need to add dither.
But if you apply ReplainGain you altered the audio data and should aplly dither.

See here to understand why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_audio
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leokennis
post Feb 9 2007, 11:58
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QUOTE (dios-mt @ Feb 9 2007, 11:52) *
You should add dither after each processing of audio data.
When you burn the audio data just as it has been on the original CD (like in your flac file) you do not need to add dither.
But if you apply ReplainGain you altered the audio data and should aplly dither.

See here to understand why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_audio

Ok...but by default Burrn does not apply gain, but does dither :? I'll levae dither off then...


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Martin H
post Feb 9 2007, 12:09
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No, Burrrn dosen't dither by default, but if you select to run WaveGain on the decoded output by selecting : Pre-processing > "ReplayGain", then Burrrn by default dithers back to 16 bit integer, which indeed is better than truncating back to 16 bit integer, but this behavoir can of course be changed from the preferences.
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leokennis
post Feb 9 2007, 12:14
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Feb 9 2007, 12:09) *
No, Burrrn dosen't dither by default, but if you select to run WaveGain on the decoded output by selecting : Pre-processing > "ReplayGain", then Burrrn by default dithers back to 16 bit integer, which indeed is better than truncating back to 16 bit integer, but this behavoir can of course be changed from the preferences.

Ok. Then the interface is wrong. It offers two times three checkboxes implying they are "equal options" when actually the first checkbox needs to be checked in order to make the other two (or at least the third) do anything...right or not?



If so, the last two checkboxes of each group should have been greyed out untill the first was checked...


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Martin H
post Feb 9 2007, 12:32
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The preferences dialog is not wrong and perfectly fine. Their is a ReplayGain setting in the main program window and then through the preferences dialog, you can change the behavoir of that setting.
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leokennis
post Feb 9 2007, 12:44
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Feb 9 2007, 12:32) *
The preferences dialog is not wrong and perfectly fine. Their is a ReplayGain setting in the main program window and then through the preferences dialog, you can change the behavoir of that setting.

In the main window I have ReplayGain disabled (as it is by default). Still, in the settings windows, I can fiddle with ReplayGain options. Ok, they won't do a darn thing but still I can change them. That's wrong UI design. I should only be able to change options that actually do something. So it should be this:
  • Main window: RG Off/On?
    • Settings windows Album Adjustment: Aditional Gain Off/On?
      • 6dB Hard Limiter Off/On?
      • Dither Off/On?
    • Settings windows Track Adjustment: Aditional Gain Off/On?
      • 6dB Hard Limiter Off/On?
      • Dither Off/On?

Where each level down could only be adjusted if the level above it was "On".


In reality it's this:
  • Main window: RG Off/On?
  • Settings windows Album Adjustment: Aditional Gain Off/On?
  • 6dB Hard Limiter Off/On?
  • Dither Off/On?
  • Settings windows Track Adjustment: Aditional Gain Off/On?
  • 6dB Hard Limiter Off/On?
  • Dither Off/On?

Where you can select/deselect anything, and have no clue if it'll do anything because you don't know you first have to select an option on the same level before the actions of the other checkboxes on the same level do anything. No visual clue whatsoever...


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w1L50n
post Feb 9 2007, 15:49
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If leokennis is right, he has a point.

I don't use Burrrn, so I don't know about this one, but I have seen things like this many times.

I believe it's because experts and programmers are so far removed from the noob end of the spectrum, that they forget what is and isn't intuitive. Some things are so obvious to them, but confuse us mortals. I guess it's part of the learning curve of using open source...and really all it takes is to be told once and the education continues and you can move on.

But nevertheless.....
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Gambit
post Feb 9 2007, 16:22
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You are confusing aditional gain with the actual RG. I'll write a proper explanation later, too tired now and HA cache hates me.

Also, RG is not just On/Off, it's Off/Track/Album. So it's perfectly fine the way it is.


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leokennis
post Feb 10 2007, 14:11
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QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 9 2007, 16:22) *
You are confusing aditional gain with the actual RG. I'll write a proper explanation later, too tired now and HA cache hates me.

Also, RG is not just On/Off, it's Off/Track/Album. So it's perfectly fine the way it is.

Ok a question then:

You see I have dither selected on the screenshot. I have "ReplayGain" and "Additional Gain" disabled. Will the dither setting to anything?
  • If so, you're contradicting Martin H who says: "No, Burrrn dosen't dither by default, but if you select to run WaveGain on the decoded output by selecting : Pre-processing > "ReplayGain", then Burrrn by default dithers back to 16 bit integer". In this case I'd like an explanation why Martin H is wrong.
  • If not, the UI design is wrong since it let's me select an option that doesn't do anything...
So please elaborate smile.gif

This post has been edited by leokennis: Feb 10 2007, 14:11


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Martin H
post Feb 10 2007, 16:34
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Please don't go around telling other people that they are wrong, unless you are absolutely sure that this is the case, and which in this situation it isn't! Gambit is of course correct and so am i! Either you enable ReplayGain or not in the main window and then you can controll the behavoir of this ReplayGain processing through the preferences dialog under "ReplayGain" and hence, if you don't select ReplayGain processing in the main Burrrn window, then the different options listed in the ReplayGain page under the Burrrn preferences is completely ignored.
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leokennis
post Feb 10 2007, 18:24
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Feb 10 2007, 16:34) *
Please don't go around telling other people that they are wrong, unless you are absolutely sure that this is the case, and which in this situation it isn't! Gambit is of course correct and so am i! Either you enable ReplayGain or not in the main window and then you can controll the behavoir of this ReplayGain processing through the preferences dialog under "ReplayGain" and hence, if you don't select ReplayGain processing in the main Burrrn window, then the different options listed in the ReplayGain page under the Burrrn preferences is completely ignored.

D'oh...and thats my problem. The options are completely ignored but still I can select them and change them...and that's bad, wrong, UI design. Maybe I want dithering enabled, so I select it and think it's OK when actually I have to tick another box before it'll actually work...so it gives the user the illusion he/she can change the options when actually he/she can't...so you and Gambit are wrong, concerning the UI.

This post has been edited by leokennis: Feb 10 2007, 18:25


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Gambit
post Feb 10 2007, 18:32
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QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 10 2007, 18:24) *
D'oh...and thats my problem. The options are completely ignored but still I can select them and change them...and that's bad, wrong, UI design. Maybe I want dithering enabled, so I select it and think it's OK when actually I have to tick another box before it'll actually work...so it gives the user the illusion he/she can change the options when actually he/she can't...so you and Gambit are wrong, concerning the UI.

Thank you for telling me how UI design works. Now please go away.


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dreamliner77
post Feb 10 2007, 19:44
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QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 10 2007, 12:24) *
QUOTE (Martin H @ Feb 10 2007, 16:34) *

Please don't go around telling other people that they are wrong, unless you are absolutely sure that this is the case, and which in this situation it isn't! Gambit is of course correct and so am i! Either you enable ReplayGain or not in the main window and then you can controll the behavoir of this ReplayGain processing through the preferences dialog under "ReplayGain" and hence, if you don't select ReplayGain processing in the main Burrrn window, then the different options listed in the ReplayGain page under the Burrrn preferences is completely ignored.

D'oh...and thats my problem. The options are completely ignored but still I can select them and change them...and that's bad, wrong, UI design. Maybe I want dithering enabled, so I select it and think it's OK when actually I have to tick another box before it'll actually work...so it gives the user the illusion he/she can change the options when actually he/she can't...so you and Gambit are wrong, concerning the UI.



So because you can't figure out how to use the program/ui correctly, someone else must be at fault? Seems logical to me ermm.gif


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leokennis
post Feb 10 2007, 22:52
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QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 10 2007, 18:32) *
QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 10 2007, 18:24) *

D'oh...and thats my problem. The options are completely ignored but still I can select them and change them...and that's bad, wrong, UI design. Maybe I want dithering enabled, so I select it and think it's OK when actually I have to tick another box before it'll actually work...so it gives the user the illusion he/she can change the options when actually he/she can't...so you and Gambit are wrong, concerning the UI.

Thank you for telling me how UI design works. Now please go away.

If you think you'll draw me out with this one you're wrong. I am in no way looking for a fight or anything.
QUOTE (dreamliner77 @ Feb 10 2007, 19:44) *
QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 10 2007, 12:24) *

QUOTE (Martin H @ Feb 10 2007, 16:34) *

Please don't go around telling other people that they are wrong, unless you are absolutely sure that this is the case, and which in this situation it isn't! Gambit is of course correct and so am i! Either you enable ReplayGain or not in the main window and then you can controll the behavoir of this ReplayGain processing through the preferences dialog under "ReplayGain" and hence, if you don't select ReplayGain processing in the main Burrrn window, then the different options listed in the ReplayGain page under the Burrrn preferences is completely ignored.

D'oh...and thats my problem. The options are completely ignored but still I can select them and change them...and that's bad, wrong, UI design. Maybe I want dithering enabled, so I select it and think it's OK when actually I have to tick another box before it'll actually work...so it gives the user the illusion he/she can change the options when actually he/she can't...so you and Gambit are wrong, concerning the UI.



So because you can't figure out how to use the program/ui correctly, someone else must be at fault? Seems logical to me ermm.gif

No. I use the program correctly because I "interact" with controls (checkboxes etc.) that are edittable. That those controls do nothing, and for that reason should not be edittable, is the programs fault and not mine.

I want to ask one question: in what way is it correct to offer optional preferences when they will do nothing?

I know it's not the end of the world, it's just strange that some people can't "admit" that there is a small thing wrong with an otherwise great program.

This post has been edited by leokennis: Feb 10 2007, 22:53


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Gambit
post Feb 11 2007, 01:43
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Those are settings for Replaygain. WTF is there to not understand. SETTINGS. Just like there are settings in other applicatins for other things. Not everything you set up in an application you use all the time. A feature is not configurable only when it is enabled.

I don't know how to explain this to you. Those are the settings of the Track and Album mode of Replaygain. They apply when you select Track or Album Replaygain.

Where did you see that an app would disable a settings page when that feature is not selected? You are terribly confused here.

But I like the fact that you still try to convince me and Martin, who is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable members of this board, that WE are the ones who are wrong. And I'm not trying to start a fight, it's just frustrating to waste my time with somebody as arrogant as you.

This post has been edited by Gambit: Feb 11 2007, 01:44


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leokennis
post Feb 11 2007, 14:01
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QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 11 2007, 01:43) *
Those are settings for Replaygain. WTF is there to not understand. SETTINGS. Just like there are settings in other applicatins for other things. Not everything you set up in an application you use all the time. A feature is not configurable only when it is enabled.

I don't know how to explain this to you. Those are the settings of the Track and Album mode of Replaygain. They apply when you select Track or Album Replaygain.

Where did you see that an app would disable a settings page when that feature is not selected? You are terribly confused here.

But I like the fact that you still try to convince me and Martin, who is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable members of this board, that WE are the ones who are wrong. And I'm not trying to start a fight, it's just frustrating to waste my time with somebody as arrogant as you.

I'm not doubting you and Martin H's knowledge, I just think we don't understand each other. That is a common situation, and IMHO it doesn't mean people should be calling each other "arrogant" or suggesting they should "go away".

You say: "Where did you see that an app would disable a settings page when that feature is not selected? You are terribly confused here."

I think I can explain my point with an example from Microsoft Word. In the preferences, you see there is a general option for embedding fonts in your Word document. Furthermore, there are additional options on how to embed those fonts. These additional options of course only have effect if the general option is applied in the first place, so you see the additional options are greyed out until first the general option is selected. This visual clue hints me that those checkboxes are unavailable and won't change anything unless I select the general option first.

General option not selected, additional options greyed out and unavailable:


General option selected, additional options can be set:


Burrrn doesn't follow this principle. Like you say, "Those are the settings of the Track and Album mode of Replaygain. They apply when you select Track or Album Replaygain.". Since they only apply after you set another option ("...select Track or Album Replaygain."), they should be not edittable (and thus greyed out) untill you set that other option.

That is the only "point" I'm trying to make. The fact that Burrrn doesn't give you a (visual) hint that certain settings won't apply untill you select other general options, that other programs do give you those hints, and that I prefer the way those other programs offer their options, which is a small spot on an otherwise great application.


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Gambit
post Feb 11 2007, 16:18
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Do you see the caption of the settings tab that says "Replaygain"?

Do you realize that if it was the way you suggest, you would have to go to the Settings to enable/disable RG each time? Very user friendly.

Just because you don't understand something it doesn't mean that it is wrong.


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leokennis
post Feb 11 2007, 17:43
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QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 11 2007, 16:18) *
[...]
Just because you don't understand something it doesn't mean that it is wrong.

If you insist upon belitteling me, maybe you were right and I should go away to more friendly parts of this forum...

This post has been edited by leokennis: Feb 11 2007, 17:44


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Frank Bicking
post Feb 11 2007, 17:59
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QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 9 2007, 12:14) *
Ok. Then the interface is wrong. It offers two times three checkboxes implying they are "equal options" when actually the first checkbox needs to be checked in order to make the other two (or at least the third) do anything...right or not?



If so, the last two checkboxes of each group should have been greyed out untill the first was checked...

You are wrong.

The first option does not enable or disable ReplayGain. You do that in the main window of Burrrn.

"Additional Gain" changes the target volume from 89 dB to a different value, by adding the value next to it to 89 dB. Enable it and set it to 3 dB, and you get 92 dB, and thus louder CDs. This feature is called "Preamp" in other applications like foobar2000. To apply dithering, it's not required that you enable "Additional Gain". The same applies to the hard limiter. In contrast to what you try to imply here, there are no dependencies between those three options.

Edit: To make it even more obvious:



Burrrn uses preamp, limiter, and dithering settings from:



Burrrn uses preamp, limiter, and dithering settings from:



Burrrn does not apply any additional gain, limiter, or dithering.

--

Conclusion: You cannot apply dithering without enabling ReplayGain as well. That's the reason why the dithering options have been placed into the "ReplayGain" tab and "Track/Album adjustment" groups of the Settings dialog. Again, please do not confuse the volume adjustment provided by ReplayGain with the additional gain setting, which rises or lowers the volume after the ReplayGain processing.

This post has been edited by Frank Bicking: Feb 11 2007, 18:39
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leokennis
post Feb 11 2007, 20:01
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Thanks for this enlightening explanation smile.gif A lot better than being told to go away and being called arrogant.

Edit: Removed xxbox quote

This post has been edited by Gambit: Feb 12 2007, 01:42


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Gambit
post Feb 12 2007, 01:41
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QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 11 2007, 20:01) *
Thanks for this enlightening explanation smile.gif A lot better than being told to go away and being called arrogant.

Excuse me, but you were the one who came here telling us how wrong we all are.

But thank you Frank for the thorough explanation. (See how nice I was? I could write "idiot guide". tongue.gif)


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leokennis
post Feb 12 2007, 09:30
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QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 12 2007, 01:41) *
QUOTE (leokennis @ Feb 11 2007, 20:01) *

Thanks for this enlightening explanation smile.gif A lot better than being told to go away and being called arrogant.

Excuse me, but you were the one who came here telling us how wrong we all are.

[...]

Yes, saying someone's wrong is the whole point of a discussion forum; trying to make a point by sticking to the facts. After all, because of a misunderstanding on my side, I was wrong and I'll happily admit that.

Saying someone's arrogant however, is (or should) not be part of the discussion because it helps no one resolving the facts...

Saying someone's wrong is a fair discussion technique (admitting you (I) were wrong after all is also), saying someone's arrogant is a presidential's election debate technique wink.gif It's low play.

So, in conclusion, after all I was wrong, you were right, but you had no right nor reason to call me arrogant or to say I should go away. In my opinion.

This post has been edited by leokennis: Feb 12 2007, 09:31


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CoolMI
post Dec 31 2010, 11:58
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Hi guys... I apologize for updating this thread after so long, but it is the only pretty detailed one I have found by Google.

I have been reading this thread several times but there are a couple of things I still do not understand... maybe it is becasue the language barrier or, like somebody wrote before, because some things are so obvious to them, but confuse us mortal.... so, once again, please excuse my ignorance smile.gif

Anyway... what I am trying to get is a good "protocol" to burn good quality AUDIO CD.

This is my own method: making an Audio CD compilation I usually extract the audio tracks form the original CD by using EAC. Then if I have to add some MP3s I first convert them into Wave PCM signed 16 bit 44100 Hz.

At this point I have several songs from this different sources, all with the same attribute (all Wave files/16 bit) BUT with different volume levels I want to write to a CD; so I use Goldwave ----> Match volume effect (Root Means Square) to adjust volume levels of each song so they sound similar: I open each file and display the Match Volume effect to see what average value it has, then I apply an overall average value to all the files. To avoid clipping distortion, I use the minimum average across all files. For example, if one file has an average of -18dB and all the other files have a higher average, then use -18dB for all files.

My doubts are:

Am I doing the right thing matching the volume file working on Wave PCM signed 16 bit 44100 Hz files?

If it is wrong, should I convert them into Wave PCM signed 24 bit 44100 Hz (or any other attribute you will advice me),
matching the volume and, BEFORE writing, re-converted them into on Wave PCM signed 16 bit 44100 Hz fies?

If this right, can I do IT faster and especially BETTER by Burrn dithering options? In other words:

1. Extact audio tracks from original CD + MP3S
2. Convert WAVES and MP3s in to Wave PCM signed 24 bit (or any other attribute you will advice me)
3. run Burrn and apply Pre-Processing/Replay Gain/Album Adjustment/DITHER
4. Burn the compilation

Thank you in advance to anyone who can resolve my confusion and HAPPY NEW YEAR! wink.gif

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link68759
post Jun 2 2012, 02:46
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I'm just bringing this up to say that leokennis is absolutely right.

I wanted to burn some flacs to an audio cd, and a little bit of googling brought me to burrrn.

I don't want replaygain.
I see a setting under the replaygain page that is on, and I don't know exactly what it does.
I google burrrn dithering and I am brought right to this topic where people who know a lot about dithering are arguing that it doesn't need to be changed.

This is poor UI design, it should be changed. I could have just looked, saw that replaygain was off and all relevant settings were inaccessible and not have had to research whether or not I was going to screw up one of my CDs. That's the way it should be; I've read your arguments against, and they read like "you're dumb we're elitist, we don't need to improve the usability of this program".

Really the UI template for ALL windows programs with checkboxes are: if it's disabled, it's greyed out; so there is no illusion that the setting will have an effect on the output.

Simple as that. No context, whether it be CD burning, video conversion, ANYTHING: no context whatsoever changes the fact that this is how it should be done.


Consider this a bug report / feature request; that is all.

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