IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Windows XP k mixer vs. whatever is in Vista
bidz
post Feb 4 2007, 20:40
Post #26





Group: Members
Posts: 351
Joined: 27-December 02
From: Norway
Member No.: 4258



The DRM system in Vista is only active if you playback protected content. And as a rule of thumb, everyone concerned about DRM should stay away from any protected content anyway, so i don't see the problem here.

If you don't like DRM, don't use or buy protected (DRM) content, it's as easy as that!

As for Vista's soundsystem giving worse or better sound than XP's i have no idea. I am however sticking with XP a few months more simply because i use alot of audio programs that rely on stable device drivers and such, which is not available for Vista yet (Cubase SX3, FL Studio, Reason 3, ReCycle, Sonar 6 Producer Edition, ProTools 7.3 M-Powered, Ableton Live and Hypersonic 2).

This post has been edited by bidz: Feb 4 2007, 20:43


--------------------
myspace.com/borgei - last.fm/user/borgei
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jebus
post Feb 4 2007, 20:40
Post #27





Group: Developer
Posts: 1293
Joined: 17-March 03
From: Calgary, AB
Member No.: 5541



QUOTE (Firon @ Feb 4 2007, 12:27) *
Jebus: HD DVD works just fine on XP. So does Blu-Ray, for that matter.


OK, so you can... with the same restrictions as Vista. I requested that someone show me something you can do in XP that you CAN'T in vista, due to "all the DRM they added".

And no, you can't legally watch HD-DVD (or even DVDs) in Linux.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dogbert
post Feb 4 2007, 20:47
Post #28





Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 5-October 03
Member No.: 9165



QUOTE (bidz @ Feb 4 2007, 20:40) *
The DRM system in Vista is only active if you playback protected content. And as a rule of thumb, everyone concerned about DRM should stay away from any protected content anyway, so i don't see the problem here.

In Windows, staying away from DRM is as hard as staying away from the Internet Explorer.

Besides, both HD-DVD and Bluray aren't "protected" anymore, and even the DRM stuff that Microsoft's very own Zune player employs has been cracked.


--------------------
http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
bidz
post Feb 4 2007, 20:56
Post #29





Group: Members
Posts: 351
Joined: 27-December 02
From: Norway
Member No.: 4258



QUOTE (Dogbert @ Feb 4 2007, 11:47) *
In Windows, staying away from DRM is as hard as staying away from the Internet Explorer.


That's pure BS. How can you say that? Where do you encounter so much DRM'ed stuff in Windows compared to other operating systems?

iTunes is probably the biggest reason as to why DRM is so spread around as it is today, and hey, it's not a Microsoft product (but it is available on a Microsoft OS however).

The DRM system in Vista is only active IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE PROTECTED CONTENT. You have the choice. On Linux however, you don't even have that choice!

This post has been edited by bidz: Feb 4 2007, 20:57


--------------------
myspace.com/borgei - last.fm/user/borgei
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dogbert
post Feb 4 2007, 21:48
Post #30





Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 5-October 03
Member No.: 9165



QUOTE (bidz @ Feb 4 2007, 20:56) *
That's pure BS. How can you say that? Where do you encounter so much DRM'ed stuff in Windows compared to other operating systems?

WMP, drivers, kernel architecture etc.
A lot of resources have been wasted on DRM, and a lot of CPU cycles will be burnt due to DRM, no matter if you use it in the end or not.

QUOTE
iTunes is probably the biggest reason as to why DRM is so spread around as it is today, and hey, it's not a Microsoft product (but it is available on a Microsoft OS however).

Yeah, iTunes is an application, Windows is an operating system - there's a tiny little difference.
The intention to implement DRM deep down into the operating system is clear: it's a more "secure" approach than just relying on the security of an application. By doing that, Microsoft tries to compete with Apple/iTunes in terms of security - they want to run their own infrastructure, just like Jebus noticed.
In the end, the idea of locking out the user from his system is pretty bad, no matter how you twist it.

QUOTE
The DRM system in Vista is only active IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE PROTECTED CONTENT. You have the choice. On Linux however, you don't even have that choice!

That's both factually wrong.

This post has been edited by Dogbert: Feb 4 2007, 21:49


--------------------
http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
rjamorim
post Feb 5 2007, 01:39
Post #31


Rarewares admin


Group: Members
Posts: 7515
Joined: 30-September 01
From: Brazil
Member No.: 81



QUOTE (Jebus @ Feb 4 2007, 16:40) *
And no, you can't legally watch HD-DVD (or even DVDs) in Linux.


I see you are really knowledgeable, sire! May I suggest you just give up posting on this thread and move on to a topic you actually know about?

http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/LinDVD.jsp


--------------------
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jeffster
post Feb 5 2007, 15:43
Post #32





Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 27-March 02
From: New Zealand
Member No.: 1628



QUOTE (bidz @ Feb 5 2007, 07:56) *
The DRM system in Vista is only active IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE PROTECTED CONTENT. You have the choice.

Umm... maybe you haven't seen this paper on Vista by Peter Gutmann yet?

Here is a very small extract...

"device drivers are required to poll the underlying hardware every 30ms for digital outputs and every 150 ms for analog ones to ensure that everything appears kosher. This means that even with nothing else happening in the system, a mass of assorted drivers has to wake up thirty times a second just to ensure that... nothing continues to happen."

"In addition to this polling, further device-specific polling is also done, for example Vista polls video devices on each video frame displayed in order to check that all of the grenade pins (tilt bits) are still as they should be. We already have multiple reports from Vista reviewers of playback problems with video and audio content, with video frames dropped and audio stuttering even on high-end systems."

Kinda makes you think, doesn't it. blink.gif
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
spockep
post Feb 5 2007, 18:28
Post #33





Group: Members
Posts: 120
Joined: 8-November 06
Member No.: 37320



QUOTE (bidz @ Feb 4 2007, 15:40) *
The DRM system in Vista is only active if you playback protected content. And as a rule of thumb, everyone concerned about DRM should stay away from any protected content anyway, so i don't see the problem here.

If you don't like DRM, don't use or buy protected (DRM) content, it's as easy as that!

Thats a nice thought but 99% of consumers aren't aware of DRM. So is it fair to sell things to an unaware public? And to those that are aware, how can you be sure if DRM is not part of what you are purchasing? i.e. Sony rootkit scandal. No offense but it almost sounds like you work for MS.

DRM is a major problem across the board for consumers. And I can't imagine how bad it would be if there wasn't people "bitching" about it. Anyone remember when MS announced that they were dropping tons of features for their upcoming OS codenamed "longhorn"? Could it be because of all the DRM that was decided to be programmed in? Therefore limiting the time they had to get it all done.

This post has been edited by spockep: Feb 5 2007, 18:30
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
sld
post Feb 5 2007, 19:36
Post #34





Group: Members
Posts: 1016
Joined: 4-March 03
From: Singapore
Member No.: 5312



QUOTE (mugen @ Feb 4 2007, 16:08) *
How do I get KS working in Vista? With a Realtek ALC882, no devices are listed for KS output in Foobar - only DS.

You have to download the KS plugin from the Optional Components link at Foobar2000.com .
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
CSMR
post Feb 5 2007, 20:38
Post #35





Group: Members
Posts: 758
Joined: 10-May 04
Member No.: 14009



QUOTE (spockep @ Feb 5 2007, 09:28) *
Thats a nice thought but 99% of consumers aren't aware of DRM. So is it fair to sell things to an unaware public? And to those that are aware, how can you be sure if DRM is not part of what you are purchasing? i.e. Sony rootkit scandal. No offense but it almost sounds like you work for MS.

People who are slightly technically minded will understand what the internet store tells them. They will understand when they are told "you have the right to play this ten times" or whatever. Not difficult. If the store doesn't tell them then I would think it is doing something which would be illegal in most countries.

People who can't even understand this will know from their friends or the media if they notice problems arising from DRM. So these people will get some relevant information from some channels... not the best channels but the channels they would use to make any decision about what to buy.

QUOTE (Dogbert @ Feb 3 2007, 16:46) *
Contrary to popular belief, the kmixer of XP and 2k doesn't change a thing when you move the wave volume slider to the max. DTS encoded wave files can be played through WaveOut/DSound and through the kernel mixer without any loss.

And I should know, I've developed a driver for the C-Media 8738/8768 which just can do that stunt.

No. Windows has a mixer. The mixer has to take what can potentially be several sources and mix them. So no one can be at full volume, even if it is the only thing playing, because then if the system beeps for example you either have the possibiliy of clipping or you have to reduce the volume of what is playing at the same time. Not unreasonably, windows doesn't do this.
QUOTE
The mixing engine of Vista works with 32bit float samples, so there's actually some information lost in the conversion. But there is a so called "exclusive mode" which is available through the WASAPI. It should give you bitperfect output, albeit I haven't seen software which actually support it (yet).

That's right.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dogbert
post Feb 5 2007, 20:48
Post #36





Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 5-October 03
Member No.: 9165



QUOTE (CSMR @ Feb 5 2007, 20:38) *
No. Windows has a mixer. The mixer has to take what can potentially be several sources and mix them. So no one can be at full volume, even if it is the only thing playing, because then if the system beeps for example you either have the possibiliy of clipping or you have to reduce the volume of what is playing at the same time. Not unreasonably, windows doesn't do this.

Ahh, so either I am lying, or I am in a delusional state of mind . Yeah, that must be it.
Seriously, try it yourself if you don't believe me. A cmedia card with digital outputs costs ~15 USD.

QUOTE
You have to download the KS plugin from the Optional Components link at Foobar2000.com

Or not. The Realtek drivers use the WaveRT model afaik, so kernel streaming isn't supported at all.


--------------------
http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
chelgrian
post Feb 5 2007, 21:02
Post #37





Group: Members
Posts: 316
Joined: 27-April 03
Member No.: 6228



QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 5 2007, 01:39) *
I see you are really knowledgeable, sire! May I suggest you just give up posting on this thread and move on to a topic you actually know about?

http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/LinDVD.jsp


How about something consumers can actually buy rather than something which is available for OEM licensing only. The only reason Intervideo got a CSS license at all for LinDVD was that they agreed that they would only develop it for the OEM market.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JunkieXL
post Feb 5 2007, 21:05
Post #38





Group: Members
Posts: 359
Joined: 3-April 05
Member No.: 21165



QUOTE (jeffster @ Feb 5 2007, 07:43) *
Kinda makes you think, doesn't it. blink.gif

Kinda makes me think I'll be switching to another OS mfg rather than upgrading XP...
JXL
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Martin H
post Feb 5 2007, 22:48
Post #39





Group: Members
Posts: 857
Joined: 5-March 05
From: Denmark
Member No.: 20365



Hi Dogbert smile.gif

Are you saying that the person who wrote the following quote is delusional ? The info is supposed to come from Microsoft itself and i can't really see the point in making this stuff up, personally. Some manufacturers are making drivers which aren't completely WDM compatible(isn't using MS guideliness 100%) and hence, can archieve bit-perfect output through these interfaces also - Could that be the case also with your driver ?

QUOTE (Black Magic)
KMixer issue resolved

Here's an update to the KMixer issue.

Some of the design goals for the KMixer that affects this issue are:
1) Create a standard interface to the audio device
2) Handle multiple asynchronous streams of audio
3) Handle streams of different sampling rates
4) Efficient, low CPU usage (keep data streams moving, even on slower systems)
5) Volume control

In order to meet these goals, the KMixer can not guarantee bit perfect playback. Hence it does not support non-PCM streams. The DTS CD (masquerading as a PCM stream) is corrupted in the process. DVD and CD players don't need to meet the above requirements, so they simply pass the stream along. DTS really should have standardized their format. Regardless, the bit manipulation occurs because of volume control.

Since most PCM data is 16 bits, on MMX systems the KMixer uses 16 bit math to take advantage of the SIMD parallelism of MMX. 15 bits are used for multiplication and 1 bit for sign. This means that the KMixer can not represent an amplitude of 1.0. The best it can do is 7FFF/8000. So on MMX systems, when the volume is set to 0dB attenuation, KMixer still attenuates the signal slightly - so the bits are changed.

On non-MMX systems, the KMixer uses floating point math to handle volume. This results in higher CPU usage, but allows the KMixer to reach an amplitude of 1.0. The floating point numbers are then converted back to integers (because that's what the sound card is connected with) and ends up dithering the stream in the process.

When bit perfect playback is necessary, Kernel Streaming is recommended.

Essentially, it comes down to the following:
1) The KMixer does not support non-PCM streams (which the DTS CDs are)
2) A 1/8000 volume attenuation is extremely small. Can anyone hear really hear it? Refer back to KikeG's measured ratings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...886#post2493886

I recommend continuing to use Kernel Streaming for your DTS CDs. For PCM data, it is not necessary.


Source : http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthr...mp;pagenumber=7

This post has been edited by Martin H: Feb 5 2007, 23:08
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
CSMR
post Feb 5 2007, 22:52
Post #40





Group: Members
Posts: 758
Joined: 10-May 04
Member No.: 14009



QUOTE (Dogbert @ Feb 5 2007, 11:48) *
Ahh, so either I am lying, or I am in a delusional state of mind . Yeah, that must be it.
Seriously, try it yourself if you don't believe me. A cmedia card with digital outputs costs ~15 USD.

So what happens if a second application tries to play sound? Is there clipping, or is volume reduced?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dogbert
post Feb 5 2007, 23:08
Post #41





Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 5-October 03
Member No.: 9165



QUOTE (CSMR @ Feb 5 2007, 22:52) *
So what happens if a second application tries to play sound? Is there clipping, or is volume reduced?

If a second application opens and plays a stream, both streams are mixed together - and if the first application is playing a DTS encoded wave stream, for instance, there's generally white noise mixed with the second stream.

Martin H, all I can say for sure is that DTS encoded FLACs play here just fine through DirectSound/WaveOut, without crackling or other pertubations. Possible explanations are that the kmixer might use SSE in favour of MMX, or that the kernel mixer is just forwarding a stream if it's the only one being played.


--------------------
http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
CSMR
post Feb 5 2007, 23:21
Post #42





Group: Members
Posts: 758
Joined: 10-May 04
Member No.: 14009



Yes and when they are mixed together, is the volume of the first reduced or is there sometimes clipping? One of these would have to hold if you are right.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dogbert
post Feb 5 2007, 23:50
Post #43





Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 5-October 03
Member No.: 9165



QUOTE (CSMR @ Feb 5 2007, 23:21) *
Yes and when they are mixed together, is the volume of the first reduced or is there sometimes clipping? One of these would have to hold if you are right.


I don't have a scope here, and my hearing is way too bad to decide whether the mixing lowers the volume of both streams.


--------------------
http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
rjamorim
post Feb 6 2007, 01:39
Post #44


Rarewares admin


Group: Members
Posts: 7515
Joined: 30-September 01
From: Brazil
Member No.: 81



QUOTE (chelgrian @ Feb 5 2007, 17:02) *
QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 5 2007, 01:39) *

I see you are really knowledgeable, sire! May I suggest you just give up posting on this thread and move on to a topic you actually know about?

http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/LinDVD.jsp


How about something consumers can actually buy rather than something which is available for OEM licensing only.


Doesn't matter. He claimed DVDs can't be legally played on Linux, I proved they can. End of story.

QUOTE
The only reason Intervideo got a CSS license at all for LinDVD was that they agreed that they would only develop it for the OEM market.


Wrong. They insist on OEM market because they can't be arsed to guarantee compatibility to every single major distro out there. Think about the dependency hell. In the OEM market, they have much better control of the system that will be running LinDVD.

The DVD Forum would actually love to have someone developing a licensed DVD player for Linux. That would pretty much invalidate Linux users' claims that they are using illegal software (libdvdcss) because they have no access to legal alternatives on their platform.


--------------------
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tgoose
post Feb 7 2007, 00:25
Post #45





Group: Members
Posts: 407
Joined: 12-April 05
Member No.: 21399



Is it really illegal to watch DVDs using OSS? I was pretty sure it's only the distribution of compiled software that could be an issue.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th July 2014 - 12:38