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Audibility of Jitter, Proposing a series of tests
cabbagerat
post Dec 27 2006, 14:33
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The threshold of audibility of phase noise in ADC and DAC clocks is a fairly contentious issue in the HiFi and audiophile world. Some sources claim that jitter is clearly audible at low levels, and some claim that high levels of jitter are inaudible. The literature describes several tests, many with conflicting results.

One of the chief difficulties in testing the audibility of jitter is that it requires a complex hardware setup, which means that many listeners would be required to be present for an time consuming (and expensive) on site test. Over the last couple of months I have been thinking about organising a distributed listening test to look at the audibility of jitter in audio applications, based on algorithms for simulating the effects of jitter on signals. These algorithms are fairly well described in RF and telecomms engineering literature, and would be interesting for comparison purposes.

The kind of thing I have in mind is this:
Use samples which are accepted to sound good -> simulate jitter -> perform listening tests -> perform more tests at different levels of jitter depending on results

The purpose of this thread is to get ideas of the Hydrogenaudio community about performing these tests. Some of the things I would appreciate input on are:
  • Would such a test be useful
  • Would the results of such a test be valid?
  • What sort of test procedure would be best?


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Arnold B. Kruege...
post May 26 2010, 20:11
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QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ May 26 2010, 13:59) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 26 2010, 11:09) *
We hear very little about people hearing jitter during LP playback, yet there is jitter in LP playback that is commonly less than 60 dB down.

But Arny, LP jitter is good jitter. You know, the type that Mikey F. prefers. laugh.gif



Yes, high end reviewers are quite the hoot. Not only do they hear faults that aren't there, they fail to hear egregious faults that are there. I true study in the power of perception.

BTW I found a scientific paper about this. It is called:

Golden Ears and Meter Readers: The Contest for Epistemic Authority in Audiophilia
Author(s): Marc Perlman
Source: Social Studies of Science, Vol. 34, No. 5, Special Issue on Sound Studies: New
Technologies and Music (Oct., 2004), pp. 783-807

This is a peer-reviewed scientific paper.

Abstract:

ABSTRACT Scientific claims to knowledge and the uses of technological artifacts are
both inherently contestable, but both are not usually contested together. Consumers
of 'specialty' audio equipment (known as the 'high end'), however, connect both
forms of resistance. These 'audiophiles' construct their own universe of meaning
around their equipment; they cultivate a distinctive vocabulary and set of attitudes.
In this they resemble other groups of users dedicated to supposedly antiquated
technology. But they also engage in controversy to defend themselves against
knowledge-claims that would delegitimize their universe of meaning. These debates
concern recording formats or media (the relative merits of the compact disk [CD] and
long-playing record [LP]), user 'tweaks' of purchased equipment, and the supposed
audibility of differences between different brands of amplifiers, cables, or CD players.
In all of these cases, audiophiles resist the claims of audio engineering by privileging
their personal experiences, and they argue against scientific methodologies that seem
to expose those experiences as illusory. Some of these patterns of epistemic
contestation resemble those in non-musical domains (such as biomedicine). But
audiophiles also make epistemic use of values crucial to their identity as music-lovers.
They appeal to a common understanding of music as an exemplary locus of
subjectivity, emotion, and self-surrender, in order to ward off the criticisms directed
at them from a science they construe as objective, detached, and dispassionate.
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udauda
post May 27 2010, 05:58
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 26 2010, 12:11) *
BTW I found a scientific paper about this. It is called:
Golden Ears and Meter Readers: The Contest for Epistemic Authority in Audiophilia


I just obtained a copy- and it is rather a rhetorical paper that gives an overview on the fight between subjectivists & objectivists, and its long history. Thnx for the recommendation tho.

By the way, I found this powerpoint presentation which goes over most of the studies related the audibility of clock-jitter. Since I found the info extremely valuable, I made a excerption out of it:


Hopefully the authors don't get angry at me because of the unauthorized excerption..

This post has been edited by udauda: May 27 2010, 06:00
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post May 27 2010, 11:48
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How many of the references that went into this page meet TOS 8?

2?

This post has been edited by greynol: May 31 2010, 21:31
Reason for edit: Removed unnecessary full quotation of the previous post.
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udauda
post May 27 2010, 14:00
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 27 2010, 03:48) *
How many of the references that went into this page meet TOS 8?
2?


No need for sarcasm. smile.gif

[1] yes- and it is quite well-known.
[2] yes- done by Dolby.
[3] objective measurements only- no need to meet TOS 8.
[4] yes- and we have discussed it on this thread. Also there is an addendum from the authors.
[5] not referenced above- no need to meet TOS 8.
[6] no- written in 1970, well before David Clark's test in 1982.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Oct 11 2012, 17:00
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QUOTE (udauda @ May 27 2010, 09:00) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 27 2010, 03:48) *
How many of the references that went into this page meet TOS 8?
2?


No need for sarcasm. smile.gif

[1] yes- and it is quite well-known.


I have the paper right here before me, and it says quite clearly that the thresholds of audibility that it plots out were "calculated"

QUOTE
[2] yes- done by Dolby.
[3] objective measurements only- no need to meet TOS 8.
[4] yes- and we have discussed it on this thread. Also there is an addendum from the authors.
[5] not referenced above- no need to meet TOS 8.
[6] no- written in 1970, well before David Clark's test in 1982.


That makes the count of TOS8-compliant papers exactly 2, no?

(no sarcasm intended) ;-)
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Posts in this topic
- cabbagerat   Audibility of Jitter   Dec 27 2006, 14:33
- - Gigapod   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Dec 27 2006, 14:33) T...   Dec 27 2006, 16:27
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Gigapod @ Dec 27 2006, 11:27) QUOT...   Sep 26 2013, 03:48
|- - stv014   Not sure if this is relevant here, but there is cu...   Sep 26 2013, 10:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (stv014 @ Sep 26 2013, 05:56) Not s...   Sep 26 2013, 12:35
|- - stv014   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Sep 26 2013, 13...   Sep 27 2013, 10:53
- - dariju   There is a good article about jitter @ Digital Dom...   Dec 27 2006, 17:07
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (dariju @ Dec 27 2006, 17:07) There...   Dec 27 2006, 17:35
|- - Zster   QUOTE (Gigapod @ Dec 27 2006, 18:35) QUOT...   Dec 28 2006, 11:31
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (Zster @ Dec 28 2006, 11:31) ... He...   Dec 28 2006, 12:30
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (Gigapod @ Dec 27 2006, 07:27) I wo...   Dec 27 2006, 17:28
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Dec 27 2006, 17:28) ....   Dec 27 2006, 18:03
- - Pio2001   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Dec 27 2006, 14:33) W...   Dec 27 2006, 18:39
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Dec 27 2006, 18:39) ... ...   Dec 27 2006, 18:48
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Dec 27 2006, 09:39) The ...   Dec 27 2006, 19:04
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Dec 27 2006, 19:04) ....   Dec 27 2006, 19:25
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (Gigapod @ Dec 28 2006, 03:30) Cabb...   Dec 28 2006, 20:56
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Dec 28 2006, 20:56) ....   Dec 29 2006, 04:37
- - wimms   Jitter matters only during slope of the signal. In...   Dec 29 2006, 16:00
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (wimms @ Dec 29 2006, 16:00) ... C1...   Dec 29 2006, 16:34
- - cabbagerat   The second one of those paper is fascinating. It...   Dec 29 2006, 18:25
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Dec 29 2006, 12:25) T...   Jan 13 2007, 00:11
|- - Gigapod   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 13 2007, 00:11) .....   Jan 13 2007, 00:30
- - krabapple   well, let me offer this 2005 paper for considerati...   Jan 13 2007, 04:32
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 12 2007, 19:32) we...   Jan 13 2007, 08:30
||- - Kees de Visser   For the Dutch speaking and jitter interested reade...   Jan 13 2007, 18:36
|- - Eric Carroll   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 12 2007, 22:32) we...   Mar 3 2007, 07:07
||- - Kees de Visser   A small group of experts on this subject (some fro...   Mar 3 2007, 12:34
|||- - jlohl   QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Mar 3 2007, 12:34...   Mar 4 2007, 10:14
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Eric Carroll @ Mar 3 2007, 06:07) ...   Mar 21 2007, 12:31
||- - udauda   Here's another study on the threshold of jitte...   Aug 14 2009, 22:12
||- - udauda   http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/50/_p...   Aug 14 2009, 22:45
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (udauda @ Aug 14 2009, 17:12) Here...   Aug 16 2009, 11:50
|- - DonnieW   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 12 2007, 22:32) we...   Mar 5 2007, 00:52
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (DonnieW @ Mar 5 2007, 00:52) QUOTE...   Mar 5 2007, 07:00
- - DualIP   For tests, why not generate a simple program that ...   Jan 14 2007, 09:14
- - knutinh   Correlated jitter is probably worse than random ji...   Jan 14 2007, 17:59
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (DualIP @ Jan 14 2007, 00:14) For t...   Jan 16 2007, 09:18
- - sthayashi   Is this the wrong place to ask "What IS Jitte...   Mar 4 2007, 11:32
|- - mcbear   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Mar 4 2007, 11:32) For...   Mar 21 2007, 11:05
- - hlloyge   Well, bumping the old thread - has the test been c...   Feb 9 2010, 19:21
- - John_Siau   QUOTE (udauda @ Aug 14 2009, 17:45) We ha...   May 24 2010, 16:25
- - pdq   John, the post that you quote refers specifically ...   May 24 2010, 16:57
|- - John_Siau   QUOTE (pdq @ May 24 2010, 11:57) John, th...   May 24 2010, 18:15
|- - John_Siau   QUOTE (John_Siau @ May 24 2010, 13:15) We...   May 24 2010, 20:48
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (John_Siau @ May 24 2010, 20:48) Hi...   May 25 2010, 09:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 25 2010, 04:12) QU...   May 25 2010, 14:04
|- - John_Siau   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 25 2010, 09...   May 25 2010, 18:09
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (John_Siau @ May 25 2010, 13:09) Wh...   May 26 2010, 16:09
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 26 2010, 08...   May 26 2010, 18:36
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ May 26 2010, 13:36) ...   May 26 2010, 20:06
- - punkrockdude   I have not read everything but here is a test I di...   Oct 11 2012, 21:01
- - punkrockdude   What's your opinion on the difference in audib...   Oct 14 2012, 13:38
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (punkrockdude @ Oct 14 2012, 08:38)...   Oct 15 2012, 14:48
||- - punkrockdude   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Oct 15 2012, 15...   Oct 22 2012, 19:49
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (punkrockdude @ Oct 22 2012, 14:49)...   Oct 22 2012, 20:34
||- - punkrockdude   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Oct 22 2012, 21...   Oct 22 2012, 21:40
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (punkrockdude @ Oct 14 2012, 13:38)...   Oct 23 2012, 11:14
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 23 2012, 06:14) QU...   Oct 23 2012, 13:41
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Oct 23 2012, 13...   Oct 23 2012, 17:22
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 23 2012, 12:22) QU...   Oct 23 2012, 20:12
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Oct 23 2012, 20...   Oct 24 2012, 10:02
- - punkrockdude   2Bdecided: Interesting about subsamples. So there ...   Oct 23 2012, 12:26
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (punkrockdude @ Oct 23 2012, 07:26)...   Oct 23 2012, 13:32
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (punkrockdude @ Oct 23 2012, 12:26)...   Oct 23 2012, 17:21
|- - Kees de Visser   To illustrate the importance of sub-sample accurac...   Oct 23 2012, 18:21
- - dhromed   File 2 and 3 null out almost perfectly. Amplificat...   Oct 23 2012, 13:25
|- - pdq   QUOTE (dhromed @ Oct 23 2012, 08:25) 4 an...   Oct 23 2012, 16:16
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (pdq @ Oct 23 2012, 16:16) QUOTE (d...   Oct 23 2012, 17:30
|- - pdq   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 23 2012, 12:30) QU...   Oct 23 2012, 18:53
- - krabapple   FWIW, here's a good faith attempt to supply ex...   Sep 24 2013, 17:52
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 24 2013, 12:52) FW...   Sep 26 2013, 03:31
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Sep 25 2013, 22...   Sep 27 2013, 02:59
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 26 2013, 21:59) QU...   Sep 28 2013, 14:32
- - 2Bdecided   I think UltimateMusicSnob is becoming the new Guru...   Sep 27 2013, 13:04
- - Wombat   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 27 2013, 14:04) I ...   Sep 27 2013, 14:38
- - 2Bdecided   Don't joke, a similar thought had crossed my m...   Sep 27 2013, 17:35
- - Wombat   i already made up my mind when he described things...   Sep 27 2013, 19:46
- - greynol   It's difficult to describe the tonality of noi...   Sep 27 2013, 19:56


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