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80 kbps LC AAC listening test, Are PNS and IS useful at 80 kbps?
muaddib
post Jan 8 2007, 14:27
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QUOTE (SirChristof @ Jan 8 2007, 14:07) *
Doing very many ABX tests between them (assuming you hear a difference), better allows you to "rate" them. Without such attention to detail, the test becomes less meaningfull, at least in my opinion.
...
If I did not do many ABX tests to first prepare myself to get accustomed to what I should be hearing, I could simply say 5/5 and move on. When people don't give a full effort, and just listen a couple times then determine "It is transparent", that severely waters down the results from people like me who actually did everything in their power to not only hear the difference, but rate it as honestly as they can.

Your metodology for participating in listening test is meaningful and it would be really nice to have some test with people that are doing just like you described. But how many people would do that? IMO not many even if you pay them.
In public listening test many people don't give as much effort as you. But this does not "water down" your results. Public listening test produce average scores (that is average scores among people interested in doing test which should extrapolate to whole population that listens music). Most people don't hear differences without full effort, but their grades also count.
Also have in mind that in another time in another place in different circuimstances, you wouldn't give exactly the same grades wink.gif People are just not accurate enough.
In short: if you are deciding between 4.6 or 4.7, just give any of those.
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menno
post Jan 15 2007, 13:32
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Again thanks to all who have participated. Unfortunately we still don't have enough results at the moment. We will let the test run a little longer, until 29th of january for now.
Without your help it is not possible to determine if we should enable PNS and/or IS or not.

This post has been edited by menno: Jan 15 2007, 13:33
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starcy
post Jan 16 2007, 11:46
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Why not just user can decide this?
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Jan 16 2007, 12:21
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Because we want to avoid flood of suboptimal encodings (e.g. 192 kbps, PNS and IS ON) smile.gif

If we put PNS and IS in the encoder, they will either be off by default, or there will be a switch to easily disable them because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.
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dand
post Jan 16 2007, 17:13
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QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *
...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...
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IgorC
post Jan 16 2007, 22:50
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QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) *
QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *

...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...

Considering that Apple always goes to very easy and low complexity codecs like ASP without Qpel, GMC, trellis and H.264 only up to not full Main Profile it's not surprise if they doesn't support IS and PNS. Don't talk about SBR.

This post has been edited by IgorC: Jan 16 2007, 22:54
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Garf
post Jan 16 2007, 23:34
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QUOTE (IgorC @ Jan 16 2007, 22:50) *
QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) *

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *

...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...

Considering that Apple always goes to very easy and low complexity codecs like ASP without Qpel, GMC, trellis and H.264 only up to not full Main Profile it's not surprise if they doesn't support IS and PNS. Don't talk about SBR.


Well, this is different. An AAC codec without IS is just broken, period.

And you can't call it "MP4" without PNS, either.

This isn't about some optional extensions, those tools are REQUIRED even in the low-complexity profile.
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dand
post Jan 17 2007, 13:54
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QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 16 2007, 23:34) *
QUOTE (IgorC @ Jan 16 2007, 22:50) *
QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) *

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *

...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...

Considering that Apple always goes to very easy and low complexity codecs like ASP without Qpel, GMC, trellis and H.264 only up to not full Main Profile it's not surprise if they doesn't support IS and PNS. Don't talk about SBR.


Well, this is different. An AAC codec without IS is just broken, period.

And you can't call it "MP4" without PNS, either.

This isn't about some optional extensions, those tools are REQUIRED even in the low-complexity profile.


We should be looking at encoder and decoder separately here. Not supporting a feature in ENcoder is completely different than doing the same in DEcoder (i.e. failing to build a standard-conformant DEcoder).
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Garf
post Jan 17 2007, 18:08
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QUOTE (dand @ Jan 17 2007, 13:54) *
QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 16 2007, 23:34) *

Well, this is different. An AAC codec without IS is just broken, period.

And you can't call it "MP4" without PNS, either.

This isn't about some optional extensions, those tools are REQUIRED even in the low-complexity profile.


We should be looking at encoder and decoder separately here. Not supporting a feature in ENcoder is completely different than doing the same in DEcoder (i.e. failing to build a standard-conformant DEcoder).


IS and PNS (in MPEG-4) are REQUIRED in the DEcoder.

The iPod is not a standard-conformant decoder.
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menno
post Jan 17 2007, 18:45
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I think IS does work, just the PNS gave troubles
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menno
post Jan 25 2007, 16:04
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It would be great if we could get some more results for samples 4,5,7,9,10,11 and 13 wink.gif
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sketchy_c
post Jan 28 2007, 23:20
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I should have read that last post before testing tonight. unsure.gif

This post has been edited by sketchy_c: Jan 28 2007, 23:20
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menno
post Jan 29 2007, 19:38
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Since we still don't have enough results, we will simply let the test run until we do have enough (we do need an answer). I will let you know when we have enough results and from that moment people who are still doing the test will get a week to finish it.
Thanks again to everyone who already participated.
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gameplaya15143
post Jan 31 2007, 01:25
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Cool.. now I just have to stop forgetting this test is going on wacko.gif


--------------------
Vorbis-q0-lowpass99
lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune
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menno
post Feb 1 2007, 08:42
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QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Jan 31 2007, 01:25) *
Cool.. now I just have to stop forgetting this test is going on wacko.gif


bump wink.gif
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IgorC
post Feb 6 2007, 19:41
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German speech sample N5 was very low scored in 48 kbps test. While in this test it's transparent for me almost for all encode modes. Of course, 80 is a higer bitrate but, for example, LAME -V5 and Vorbis at 80 also have some problems with this sample.
Good work.

This post has been edited by IgorC: Feb 6 2007, 19:43
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gameplaya15143
post Feb 9 2007, 02:38
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I got through samples 14-8 before I started to lose my mind headbang.gif (yes I'm going backwards)
I think I started hearing things that weren't even there laugh.gif time for a little break.


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lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune
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Diow
post Feb 9 2007, 03:06
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I'm save my results in .erf but don't save them in .abc now I can't open them [the .erf] how can I open these .erf?


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Firon
post Feb 9 2007, 03:12
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You can't open them. THey're encrypted result files that you need to send to menno.
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Diow
post Feb 9 2007, 12:53
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QUOTE (Firon @ Feb 9 2007, 00:12) *
You can't open them. THey're encrypted result files that you need to send to menno.

Thanks, indeed I Know about this the problem that's I don't save the sessions (I save but delete without want but made this)...


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sketchy_c
post Feb 13 2007, 13:17
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Menno, is this still ongoing? Not sure if the 1.0.7.0 release was dependent on these results.
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menno
post Feb 13 2007, 15:50
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Yes, test is still going on. We are very thankful for everyone submitting their test results. The results of this test will be used for our next release.
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Jerethi
post Mar 4 2007, 01:54
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Currently working my way through the samples. Completed 4 samples so far.


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Diow
post Mar 4 2007, 15:31
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Is the test now ended or still running?


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Jerethi
post Mar 4 2007, 20:01
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QUOTE (Diow @ Mar 4 2007, 07:31) *
Is the test now ended or still running?


My understanding is that it is open until enough people submit their results.


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