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80 kbps LC AAC listening test, Are PNS and IS useful at 80 kbps?
menno
post Dec 21 2006, 11:20
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Dear All,

I would like to announce that the 80 kbps test of upcoming Nero AAC encoder has just started. The purpose of this test is to determine if PNS (Perceptual Noise Substitution) or IS (Intensity Stereo) gives any advantage when used at 80 kbps.
With this test, I wish to include true audiophile and scientific community into making the LC-AAC solutions even better in the future. Many thanks in advance for your help!
Test runs for 18 days, until January 8th 2007.

Which codecs are tested?

Following codecs are being tested:

- LC-AAC 80 kbps CBR No PNS no IS
- LC-AAC 80 kbps CBR No PNS, using IS
- LC-AAC 80 kbps CBR No IS, using PNS
- LC-AAC 80 kbps CBR Using both PNS and IS
- Hidden codec 1 80 kbps
- Hidden codec 2 (high anchor)
- Hidden codec 3 (low anchor)


How to Test

1. Download http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/5647513/ABC_HR.ZIP.html
2. Extract ABC_HR.ZIP in folder of your choice
3. Read Readme.txt from ABC_HR.ZIP
4. Download samples for the test (links are in ABC_HR.ZIP and in next post), and extract them in the directory where ABC_HR.zip was extracted
5. When you download and extract all the samples, execute the decode_all.bat files from bin folder. This will decode all the files and prepare the test
6. Now everything is ready for the test
7. Open ABC/HR by executing abchr.jar - and, to test each sample, open up the individual .ecf files. Each test set (Sample1, Sample2,) has an .ecf file for each sample
8. From now on, typical ABC/HR methodology applies, you need to judge the quality of individual files - save the results after you're done, and send the files to me, either by PP or directly to: mbakker (at) nero.com (replace at with @ to get an e-mail address)

Links to samples coming in the next post...

Happy Testing smile.gif


Here are the samples for the test. Samples from previous Mares and Robertos test at 48 kbps and 128 kbps were chosen. Test with lowest scores on those tests were chosen. This is because even at 48 kbps for many people it was hard to distinguish encoded samples from the original. Also most genres of music are present.

http://s19.quicksharing.com/v/9204458/Sample1.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/801115/Sample2.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/7815217/Sample3.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/3713672/Sample4.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/5514459/Sample5.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/5814487/Sample6.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/7761119/Sample7.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/3128033/Sample8.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/5707785/Sample9.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/8088598/Sample10.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/6741335/Sample11.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/1364761/Sample12.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/5209480/1Sample13.zip.html
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/1426353/Sample14.zip.html
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starcy
post Jan 16 2007, 11:46
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Why not just user can decide this?
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Jan 16 2007, 12:21
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Because we want to avoid flood of suboptimal encodings (e.g. 192 kbps, PNS and IS ON) smile.gif

If we put PNS and IS in the encoder, they will either be off by default, or there will be a switch to easily disable them because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.
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dand
post Jan 16 2007, 17:13
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QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *
...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...
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IgorC
post Jan 16 2007, 22:50
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QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) *
QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *

...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...

Considering that Apple always goes to very easy and low complexity codecs like ASP without Qpel, GMC, trellis and H.264 only up to not full Main Profile it's not surprise if they doesn't support IS and PNS. Don't talk about SBR.

This post has been edited by IgorC: Jan 16 2007, 22:54
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Garf
post Jan 16 2007, 23:34
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QUOTE (IgorC @ Jan 16 2007, 22:50) *
QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) *

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *

...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...

Considering that Apple always goes to very easy and low complexity codecs like ASP without Qpel, GMC, trellis and H.264 only up to not full Main Profile it's not surprise if they doesn't support IS and PNS. Don't talk about SBR.


Well, this is different. An AAC codec without IS is just broken, period.

And you can't call it "MP4" without PNS, either.

This isn't about some optional extensions, those tools are REQUIRED even in the low-complexity profile.
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dand
post Jan 17 2007, 13:54
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QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 16 2007, 23:34) *
QUOTE (IgorC @ Jan 16 2007, 22:50) *
QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) *

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21) *

...because one very widespread portable player (Apple iPod) appears not to support them well.

This is so hard to believe... Can't they (Apple) just fix this and issue a firmware update...

Considering that Apple always goes to very easy and low complexity codecs like ASP without Qpel, GMC, trellis and H.264 only up to not full Main Profile it's not surprise if they doesn't support IS and PNS. Don't talk about SBR.


Well, this is different. An AAC codec without IS is just broken, period.

And you can't call it "MP4" without PNS, either.

This isn't about some optional extensions, those tools are REQUIRED even in the low-complexity profile.


We should be looking at encoder and decoder separately here. Not supporting a feature in ENcoder is completely different than doing the same in DEcoder (i.e. failing to build a standard-conformant DEcoder).
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Garf
post Jan 17 2007, 18:08
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QUOTE (dand @ Jan 17 2007, 13:54) *
QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 16 2007, 23:34) *

Well, this is different. An AAC codec without IS is just broken, period.

And you can't call it "MP4" without PNS, either.

This isn't about some optional extensions, those tools are REQUIRED even in the low-complexity profile.


We should be looking at encoder and decoder separately here. Not supporting a feature in ENcoder is completely different than doing the same in DEcoder (i.e. failing to build a standard-conformant DEcoder).


IS and PNS (in MPEG-4) are REQUIRED in the DEcoder.

The iPod is not a standard-conformant decoder.
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Posts in this topic
- menno   80 kbps LC AAC listening test   Dec 21 2006, 11:20
- - dand   Good idea to clarify the is&pns issues. Mysel...   Dec 21 2006, 12:20
- - Sebastian Mares   Can anyone confirm that downloads work only with I...   Dec 21 2006, 12:42
|- - menno   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Dec 21 2006, 12...   Dec 21 2006, 12:45
||- - Sebastian Mares   QUOTE (menno @ Dec 21 2006, 12:45) QUOTE ...   Dec 21 2006, 13:14
||- - IgorC   menno Only LC is included to test? Is the reason ...   Dec 21 2006, 15:57
||- - menno   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 21 2006, 15:57) menno ...   Dec 22 2006, 08:45
|- - Maurits   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Dec 21 2006, 11...   Dec 21 2006, 12:50
- - guruboolez   Opera 9.1 is OK too.   Dec 21 2006, 12:59
- - spockep   So in short you just need the .erf files zipped th...   Dec 21 2006, 19:37
|- - menno   QUOTE (spockep @ Dec 21 2006, 19:37) So i...   Dec 22 2006, 13:03
- - Firon   Quicksharing isn't loading for me at all... Ca...   Dec 22 2006, 05:47
- - halb27   Can a user expect that his LC decoder (for instanc...   Dec 22 2006, 10:14
|- - menno   QUOTE (halb27 @ Dec 22 2006, 10:14) Can a...   Dec 22 2006, 10:25
- - muaddib   Here, I have uploaded all the files to zshare: ab...   Dec 22 2006, 10:45
- - muaddib   For most of the tests it is hard for me to determi...   Dec 22 2006, 11:02
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (muaddib @ Dec 22 2006, 02:02) For ...   Dec 23 2006, 03:39
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 23 2006, 03:39) QUOTE ...   Dec 23 2006, 20:47
- - SirChristof   My main problem is, in order to properly prepare m...   Jan 5 2007, 09:07
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (SirChristof @ Jan 5 2007, 09:07) M...   Jan 8 2007, 10:49
- - menno   First of all, thanks to everyone who has already c...   Jan 5 2007, 11:43
|- - IgorC   menno Can you confirm if you received my results? ...   Jan 6 2007, 20:51
|- - menno   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jan 6 2007, 20:51) menno C...   Jan 7 2007, 11:16
- - menno   Because we didn't get so many results yet, we ...   Jan 8 2007, 13:35
- - SirChristof   QUOTE (muaddib @ Jan 8 2007, 04:49) IMO i...   Jan 8 2007, 14:07
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (SirChristof @ Jan 8 2007, 14:07) D...   Jan 8 2007, 14:27
- - menno   Again thanks to all who have participated. Unfortu...   Jan 15 2007, 13:32
- - starcy   Why not just user can decide this?   Jan 16 2007, 11:46
|- - Ivan Dimkovic   Because we want to avoid flood of suboptimal encod...   Jan 16 2007, 12:21
|- - dand   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Jan 16 2007, 12:21...   Jan 16 2007, 17:13
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (dand @ Jan 16 2007, 08:13) QUOTE (...   Jan 16 2007, 22:50
|- - Garf   QUOTE (IgorC @ Jan 16 2007, 22:50) QUOTE ...   Jan 16 2007, 23:34
|- - dand   QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 16 2007, 23:34) QUOTE (...   Jan 17 2007, 13:54
|- - Garf   QUOTE (dand @ Jan 17 2007, 13:54) QUOTE (...   Jan 17 2007, 18:08
- - menno   I think IS does work, just the PNS gave troubles   Jan 17 2007, 18:45
- - menno   It would be great if we could get some more result...   Jan 25 2007, 16:04
- - sketchy_c   I should have read that last post before testing t...   Jan 28 2007, 23:20
- - menno   Since we still don't have enough results, we w...   Jan 29 2007, 19:38
- - gameplaya15143   Cool.. now I just have to stop forgetting this tes...   Jan 31 2007, 01:25
|- - menno   QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Jan 31 2007, 01:2...   Feb 1 2007, 08:42
|- - IgorC   German speech sample N5 was very low scored in 48...   Feb 6 2007, 19:41
- - gameplaya15143   I got through samples 14-8 before I started to los...   Feb 9 2007, 02:38
- - Diow   I'm save my results in .erf but don't save...   Feb 9 2007, 03:06
- - Firon   You can't open them. THey're encrypted res...   Feb 9 2007, 03:12
|- - Diow   QUOTE (Firon @ Feb 9 2007, 00:12) You can...   Feb 9 2007, 12:53
- - sketchy_c   Menno, is this still ongoing? Not sure if the 1.0...   Feb 13 2007, 13:17
- - menno   Yes, test is still going on. We are very thankful ...   Feb 13 2007, 15:50
- - Jerethi   Currently working my way through the samples. Com...   Mar 4 2007, 01:54
- - Diow   Is the test now ended or still running?   Mar 4 2007, 15:31
|- - Jerethi   QUOTE (Diow @ Mar 4 2007, 07:31) Is the t...   Mar 4 2007, 20:01
- - menno   We now have about enough results, test will end on...   Mar 5 2007, 10:43
- - The Sheep of DEATH   So how did it go? (I mean, were you able to answ...   Mar 15 2007, 16:55


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