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16 bit vs 24 bit, any samples that work?
AndyH-ha
post Nov 3 2006, 03:19
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There are real differences between 16 bit and 24 bit files, just as there are real differences between uncompressed and mp3. As with the differences between wav and mp3, 16 bit vs 24 bit is often difficult to identify by listening.

Test signals are one thing, but has anyone found any 24 bit music recording that can be successfully identified via ABX testing against a properly resample to 16 bit version of same?
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2Bdecided
post Jan 23 2009, 16:30
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Found it...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gea...ot-audible.html

...interesting thread. Some amazing miscomprehension in there, but still interesting.

I'm not saying you can't hear it. My own algorithm (lossyWAV) says you can. (But I can't!). It's just that 90%+ of people who come to HA claiming to hear a difference between 16-bits and 24-bits, or 44.1kHz and 96kHz, are really hearing problems with their equipment.

Potential equipment "problems" aside, would you be willing to try another ABX or two?

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Jan 23 2009, 16:51
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krabapple
post Jan 24 2009, 01:01
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 23 2009, 10:30) *
Found it...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gea...ot-audible.html

...interesting thread. Some amazing miscomprehension in there, but still interesting.

I'm not saying you can't hear it. My own algorithm (lossyWAV) says you can. (But I can't!). It's just that 90%+ of people who come to HA claiming to hear a difference between 16-bits and 24-bits, or 44.1kHz and 96kHz, are really hearing problems with their equipment.

Potential equipment "problems" aside, would you be willing to try another ABX or two?

Cheers,
David.



Let me get this straight... comparisons were 24bit vs dithered-to-16, and another was 24-bit .wav , converted to 16 vs 320 mp3 made directly from the 24 bit .wav ...and at least TWO people in this tiny sample of subjects managed perfect or near-perfect ABX scores on both -- with the mp3 trial reported being HARDER to ABX than the wordlength comparison??? (Except for the THIRD guy who claims he aced the 320 lossy vs lossless ABX, while failing to score significantly on the wordlength ABX). And another guy got 10/10 on just the wordlength ABX?

But Martin K can't successfully ABX two files made using Chris Johnson's superspecial dither?


blink.gif


I'm not implying nefarious intent on Martin K.s part, but to me these data suggest an obvious control: someone here needs to replicate the sample pairs (take the original 24-bit .wav and convert to 16 bit with TPDF dither; take the 24-bit file and convert it to 320 mp3), and see how those guys 'over there' do at ABX'ing them.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Jan 24 2009, 01:41
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Martin Kantola
post Jan 24 2009, 03:11
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 23 2009, 19:01) *
But Martin K can't successfully ABX two files made using Chris Johnson's superspecial dither?


My result for the "avd" dither was 8/10, as posted in the thread. And yes, I really want to see more people trying this too! Regardless of outcome. But so far many many posts, but very few ABX results.

You are welcome scrutinize my conversions, I'd be happy to correct any mistakes I might have made, but these are very basic operations on a DAW, honestly think I can handle them.

Martin
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MLXXX
post Jan 27 2009, 10:16
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QUOTE (Martin Kantola @ Jan 24 2009, 12:11) *
My result for the "avd" dither was 8/10, as posted in the thread. And yes, I really want to see more people trying this too! Regardless of outcome. But so far many many posts, but very few ABX results.

You are welcome scrutinize my conversions, I'd be happy to correct any mistakes I might have made, but these are very basic operations on a DAW, honestly think I can handle them.

Martin


Martin, congrats for posting the test files, and for the persistence in doing the ABX trials; particularly the 100 trials of the version with 'a little high pass noise'!

I have not tried to ABX the 24bit original against the 16 bit dithered versions (with or without extra noise) because in the past I have found that 24 bit music dithered to 16 bits (with a noise shaped dither) sounds the same to me as the original 24 bits, at normal recording and playback levels.

The effort required for ABX testing can be considerable. In my own case, my ears/brain are most responsive the first time I am presented an AB comparison. If the passage is repeated, my hearing discrimination rapidly diminishes. So to commit myself to an ABX comparison of very similar files I have to set aside a fair stretch of time, to allow my hearing to regain its sensitivity to fine differences.

Before attempting a serious ABX I would like to be assured that the 16 bit dithered version has been derived using methodolgy to the satisfaction of HA Forum technical gurus, e.g. a dither conversion they have run themselves, and preferably that at least one person has successfully ABXd such an 'approved' dithered version. Perhaps that is laziness on my part!

No disrespect intended to yourself, but I can foresee reluctance of the HA community to accept any ABX test result unless all possible perceived doubt has been removed as to the reliability of the methodolgy for performing the dither.

[Out of interest, I did ABX tests of just 4 trials of the truncated version, and 4 trials of the 320kbps mp3 version, relative to the respective 24 bit originals. I found the truncated version relatively easy to distinguish. But the 320kpbs version needed a lot of concentration and 'refresher breaks'. The 4 correct answers I obtained in both cases merely corresponded to a 6.2% likelihood of not guessing. But all I was seeking was broad assurance I could distinguish the files. They were not what I'd call 'serious' ABX tests.]

Cheers

This post has been edited by MLXXX: Jan 28 2009, 12:56
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krabapple
post Jan 27 2009, 18:57
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QUOTE (MLXXX @ Jan 27 2009, 04:16) *
The effort required for ABX testing can be considerable. In my own case, my ears/brain are most responsive the first time I am presented an AB comparison. If the passage is repeated, my hearing discrimination rapidly diminishes. So to commit myself to an ABX comparison of very similar files I have to set aside a fair stretch of time, to allow my hearing to regain its sensitivity to fine differences.


Is it the repetition of A/B comparison itself, or the repetition of the same music in a series of A/B comparisons, that you find fatigueing?

If it's the latter, I wonder if it might make discrimination easier, to prepare a batch of 16 different samples -- and use a different one for each of 16 trials. Then at least each A/B is 'fresh' to the ears.

For ease of preparation, the samples could be 16 different parts of the same track. If that's not a concern, they could be from different tracks (all prepared and vetted to HA standards as you have described)

This post has been edited by krabapple: Jan 27 2009, 18:57
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MLXXX
post Jan 28 2009, 14:14
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 28 2009, 03:57) *
Is it the repetition of A/B comparison itself, or the repetition of the same music in a series of A/B comparisons, that you find fatigueing?

Having not tried the approach you suggest of setting up multiple different parts of the same track in advance I am not absolutely sure.

However I do find that once I have become desensitized by listening to one segment of a track too many times (this may be just 4 times), the use of a different segment only offers a temporary period of being able to discriminate. After that I may find I cannot discriminate any segments of any tracks! (unless of course a segment contains a much more marked difference).

Another factor is that I have found with experience that I cannot just rely on my memory of A and B when listening to X and Y. For example, at the beginning of a listening session I may perceive a lossy Dolby Digital version as somewhat thin -- not as full sounding as an uncompressed version. But later in the session the Dolby Digital may start to sound clearer than the uncompressed version (Dolby can have a "neat and tidy" sound), and the uncompressed version may sound thin in comparison.

So before commiting to a proposed answer I find now I have to take the precaution of replaying the A and B to make sure my hearing has not altered. This adds to the listening load per entered ABX response.

In the past, I found that on some occasions I would enter up to 5 incorrect answers in a row. Quite frustrating! This I eventually realized was because I was relying on my memory of the difference in sound of A and B (e.g. A is the "brighter" sound). During the course of the ABX trial, the fatigue had caused a juxtaposition in the relative perceived sound of A and B.

In the case of 'brightness", I could conjecture that what initially sounded "brighter" may have been brighter because of the presence of high frequency content towards the upper limit of my hearing. As time wore on, and with my ears being exposed to a great deal of high frequency content, my hearing in that range may have become desensitized, so that the character of "brightness" was lost.

These sorts of extraneous effects might normally go completely unnoticed. It's just the samples we try to ABX are sometimes very close to being indistinguishable, so that even minor changes in our hearing as a session progresses have the potential to lead us into error.

This post has been edited by MLXXX: Jan 28 2009, 17:42
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Posts in this topic
- AndyH-ha   16 bit vs 24 bit   Nov 3 2006, 03:19
- - Mike Giacomelli   I'd imagine ABX would be possible if you found...   Nov 3 2006, 03:25
- - pdq   I recall a test here some years back to try to see...   Nov 3 2006, 05:33
- - Aetmos   If the clip is properly dithered, this doesn't...   Nov 3 2006, 06:22
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (Aetmos @ Nov 2 2006, 21:22) If the...   Nov 3 2006, 07:31
|- - Aetmos   QUOTE Welcome to HA. I see this is your first post...   Nov 3 2006, 16:17
- - AndyH-ha   I agree that a good sample, if it exist in music, ...   Nov 3 2006, 09:36
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Nov 3 2006, 00:36)...   Nov 3 2006, 16:25
- - Axon   I suppose it's quite easy to construct a track...   Nov 3 2006, 17:48
- - Axon   Also, how contrived can the listening environment ...   Nov 3 2006, 18:03
- - AndyH-ha   The question isn't whether or not it is possib...   Nov 3 2006, 20:18
- - Axon   Well.. how much dynamic range can you coax out of ...   Nov 3 2006, 20:38
- - AndyH-ha   I'm sorry, that went over my head. What is the...   Nov 3 2006, 21:21
- - outscape   haha nothing.. see 24 bits is purist technology. i...   Nov 3 2006, 22:23
- - greynol   I'd wager that in order to distinguish the dif...   Nov 3 2006, 22:41
- - Axon   OSHA's recommendations for 120db is that it sh...   Nov 4 2006, 01:11
- - AndyH-ha   But are you talking about real music or, effective...   Nov 4 2006, 01:56
- - Axon   My point is that you don't need a "test s...   Nov 4 2006, 02:21
- - AndyH-ha   OK, you need more than the dynamic range of 16 bit...   Nov 4 2006, 04:09
- - Iain   I think the best volume for the test would be ...   Nov 12 2006, 17:14
- - AndyH-ha   Without cryogenic cooling the intrinsic noise of e...   Nov 12 2006, 19:23
- - SebastianG   I think it's a good idea to mention the import...   Nov 13 2006, 13:30
- - AndyH-ha   QUOTE I think it's a good idea to mention the ...   Nov 14 2006, 03:43
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Nov 14 2006, 03:43...   Nov 15 2006, 14:16
- - SirChristof   If you have decent equipment and a quiet environme...   Feb 15 2007, 09:40
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (SirChristof @ Feb 15 2007, 09:40) ...   Feb 15 2007, 22:15
- - AndyH-ha   Yes, it is easy to create test tones that demonstr...   Feb 15 2007, 11:52
- - SirChristof   The vast majority of all music most of us have acc...   Feb 15 2007, 20:17
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (SirChristof @ Feb 15 2007, 14:17) ...   Feb 16 2007, 06:07
- - SometimesWarrior   These articles on ff123's website may be of in...   Feb 15 2007, 21:41
- - greynol   QUOTE (SirChristof @ Feb 15 2007, 00:40) ...   Feb 15 2007, 21:48
- - SirChristof   Greynol, What I meant to imply by "at low le...   Feb 15 2007, 22:02
- - AndyH-ha   As far as I can see, the ff123 page does not provi...   Feb 16 2007, 08:17
|- - Kees de Visser   At least one of the engineers I've asked seems...   Feb 16 2007, 11:01
- - muaddib   IMO it is better to keep samples much shorter: 10-...   Feb 16 2007, 11:54
- - 2Bdecided   There are a few 24/96 and 24/44.1 files here: http...   Feb 16 2007, 12:07
- - AndyH-ha   Setting aside for the moment whether this donated ...   Feb 16 2007, 12:22
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Feb 16 2007, 12:22...   Feb 16 2007, 15:10
|- - Kees de Visser   An ABX test to compare 16 and 24 bit dithered audi...   Feb 19 2007, 23:00
- - AndyH-ha   I believe the resampling is more important than th...   Feb 20 2007, 00:30
- - MLXXX   Hi everyone. A year has passed since the previous...   Feb 25 2008, 16:52
- - AndyH-ha   "sounding better" is a subjective evalua...   Feb 26 2008, 00:52
- - MLXXX   I am new to ABXing but I think that for playing 24...   Feb 26 2008, 15:25
- - .halverhahn   Even it is comparing apples with oranges: Do you ...   Feb 26 2008, 17:28
- - digital   Wow: Nov 2nd 2006 to Feb 27th, 2008 and still wai...   Feb 27 2008, 10:37
- - knutinh   Since DVD-A can now be ripped, having 24/96 stereo...   Feb 27 2008, 10:43
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 27 2008, 10:43) Caut...   Feb 27 2008, 11:51
|- - bubbleguuum   QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Feb 27 2008, 11:5...   Feb 27 2008, 20:32
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (volvme+ @ Feb 28 2008, 04:27)...   Feb 28 2008, 10:11
- - GeSomeone   I remember remarks (don't know where) that ind...   Feb 27 2008, 12:10
- - knutinh   I think that the difference between 12 bits and 16...   Feb 27 2008, 15:00
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 28 2008, 00:00) I th...   Feb 27 2008, 16:59
- - volvme+   Sorry for interrupting your conversation, but I do...   Feb 27 2008, 19:27
- - MLXXX   AndyH, perhaps you might be kind enough to answer ...   Mar 3 2008, 07:27
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (MLXXX @ Mar 2 2008, 22:27) Being a...   Mar 3 2008, 10:43
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Mar 3 2008, 19:43) ~ ...   Mar 3 2008, 13:48
|- - Soap   QUOTE (MLXXX @ Mar 3 2008, 07:48) When I ...   Mar 3 2008, 14:11
|- - MLXXX   Thanks, Soap. I should have been more precise. Wh...   Mar 3 2008, 15:06
- - SebastianG   Hi! I'd like to remind you that there...   Mar 3 2008, 11:02
- - AndyH-ha   I know this isn't the only time I raised the t...   Mar 3 2008, 12:03
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Mar 3 2008, 02:02) I...   Mar 3 2008, 13:25
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (MLXXX @ Mar 3 2008, 04:48) If I am...   Mar 3 2008, 15:23
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Mar 4 2008, 00:23) Wi...   Mar 3 2008, 15:35
- - cabbagerat   QUOTE (MLXXX @ Mar 3 2008, 06:35) QUOTE (...   Mar 3 2008, 16:17
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Mar 4 2008, 01:17) ~ ...   Mar 4 2008, 16:25
- - AndyH-ha   I generally issue this type of challenge when some...   Mar 4 2008, 19:45
- - MLXXX   I've a added a 24-bit 48KHz original, and 16-b...   Mar 10 2008, 16:00
- - Pio2001   Hello, In september, I did an ABX between a 96 kHz...   Nov 26 2008, 22:25
|- - Canar   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Nov 26 2008, 13:25) Voxe...   Nov 27 2008, 00:27
||- - Dynamic   QUOTE (Canar @ Nov 27 2008, 00:27) QUOTE ...   Nov 27 2008, 05:27
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Nov 26 2008, 22:25) I go...   Nov 27 2008, 10:32
- - Pio2001   Thank you for the precisions about dither. This is...   Nov 27 2008, 19:48
- - Canar   I fully recognize that, and want to thank you agai...   Nov 27 2008, 21:18
- - solive   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Nov 2 2006, 18:19)...   Jan 5 2009, 01:28
- - greynol   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showt...   Jan 5 2009, 01:38
|- - Martin Kantola   Greetings, found your forum recently, so here...   Jan 21 2009, 22:04
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Martin Kantola @ Jan 21 2009, 22:0...   Jan 22 2009, 07:37
- - 2Bdecided   I can't ABX it. I agree it's a perfectly g...   Jan 22 2009, 13:45
- - AndyH-ha   I m going to see if I can borrow a fast connectio...   Jan 22 2009, 22:12
|- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jan 22 2009, 16:12...   Jan 23 2009, 05:01
|- - Ron Jones   QUOTE (Martin Kantola @ Jan 22 2009, 20:0...   Jan 23 2009, 05:58
||- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (Ron Jones @ Jan 22 2009, 23:58) As...   Jan 23 2009, 06:23
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Martin Kantola @ Jan 23 2009, 04:0...   Jan 23 2009, 11:47
|- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 23 2009, 05:47) I ...   Jan 23 2009, 16:11
- - Axon   18/32 - there's a harshness in the left channe...   Jan 23 2009, 07:56
- - 2Bdecided   Found it... http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-muc...   Jan 23 2009, 16:30
|- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 23 2009, 10:30) My...   Jan 23 2009, 18:41
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 23 2009, 10:30) Fo...   Jan 24 2009, 01:01
|- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 23 2009, 19:01) Bu...   Jan 24 2009, 03:11
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Martin Kantola @ Jan 23 2009, 21:1...   Jan 25 2009, 00:08
||- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 24 2009, 18:08) An...   Jan 25 2009, 00:28
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (Martin Kantola @ Jan 24 2009, 12:1...   Jan 27 2009, 10:16
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (MLXXX @ Jan 27 2009, 04:16) The ef...   Jan 27 2009, 18:57
|- - MLXXX   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jan 28 2009, 03:57) Is...   Jan 28 2009, 14:14
- - 2Bdecided   Here you go... http://rapidshare.de/files/4332135...   Jan 23 2009, 17:25
|- - Martin Kantola   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 23 2009, 11:25) He...   Jan 24 2009, 07:13
- - 2Bdecided   Thank you Martin. Putting noise in the last 8 bit...   Jan 24 2009, 21:09
- - 2Bdecided   Remember those stats are only true for the situati...   Jan 25 2009, 17:38
|- - Martin Kantola   Thanks for the info David, I'm completely new ...   Jan 25 2009, 17:59
- - AndyH-ha   This was asked more than once but there was no res...   Jan 29 2009, 11:05
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