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WOW, Monkey's Audio is still the best, Ya better believe it
adlai
post Sep 22 2006, 23:35
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I did a comparison between Flac, Wavpack, and Monkey's Audio. I'm a longtime MAC user, but I've been considering replacing it with something else.

Monkey's Audio still has the smallest file sizes, and the fastest compression. On a test sample, the FLAC file was around 53 MB, the Wavpack was 51, and the Monkey's Audio was 47. Additionally, the monkey's audio on a whole encoded at a faster rate.

Yes, I know that FLAC and Wavpack have features that MAC doesn't, most noticably lossy and better seeking. However, I use lossless only for archival purposes-- I rarely actually listen to the files, and so, I have to say that monkey's audio is still the best smile.gif
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bryant
post Sep 24 2006, 22:58
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There are a few things I'd like to add to this topic. First, thanks to Guru for doing these tests. I suspect that the authors of the various encoders have also done tests like these, but it's nice to have someone outside who doesn't already know the best (and worse) places to corrupt the file.

This brings me to a caveat, and that is that there is a certain amount of luck to this procedure. It's kind of like poking someone with a stick; most of the time you'd get them in the leg or the arm, but if you were really lucky you would get them in the eye and cause real trouble. Guru sent me a file some time about ago that had the first block corrupt. It played fine (minus the first block), but because I had the overall length encoded there, and didn't properly handle the case of it being missing, I reported an absurd runtime. I recently got a WavPack file that had a corruption that causes a GPF.

The only way a test like this could be truly fair is to introduce hundreds of random errors and see what percentage cause various levels of damage. Obviously a decoder should be written in such a way that no error can cause the whole file to be corrupt, but there can always be an unforeseen problem that trips the decoder up so badly (like my GPF above) that continuing is impossible. I agree with greynol that this entry in the wiki should probably not be a binary option.

As for WavPack, I am actually in the process of improving the robustness of the decoder, which is what has delayed version 4.4 somewhat. The decoding of hybrid lossless files is currently pretty fragile, and there are some problems with regular files like what Guru and I found.

Also, WavPack currently has a CRC in each block for the decoded audio data, but I have been considering adding a CRC to cover the entire block. This would improve the robustness because I could ignore bad blocks straight away rather than try to parse through them and possibly get tripped up, and it would also allow a "quick verify" option that Guru requested long ago.

Finally, in fairness to Matt, I believe that the Monkey's Audio format (and the decoder) were designed long before this hysteria with "error robustness" started. The WavPack format back then would not tolerate a single bit error, and would in fact sometimes play full volume white noise until the end of the track! This kind of back and forth competition and learning is why the lossless encoders are as good as they are today, and why we're not all still using Shorten... smile.gif
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pest
post Sep 24 2006, 23:28
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QUOTE
Also, WavPack currently has a CRC in each block for the decoded audio data, but I have been considering adding a CRC to cover the entire block.


in my opinion the following is optimal. a crc32 for every entire block to check for io-errors
and a forced md5 on the whole file to evaluate possible decoding errors.
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Posts in this topic
- adlai   WOW, Monkey's Audio is still the best   Sep 22 2006, 23:35
- - pest   QUOTE that monkey's audio is still the best ...   Sep 22 2006, 23:44
- - HbG   I'm not so sure about the fastest. Flake is a ...   Sep 22 2006, 23:48
|- - Shade[ST]   And wait until you try out TAK (Yalac)   Sep 23 2006, 01:01
- - kanak   Totally agree with shade. i'm so excited by th...   Sep 23 2006, 04:07
- - Mangix   OptimFROG should be able to compress better than M...   Sep 23 2006, 04:13
- - LANjackal   QUOTE (adlai @ Sep 22 2006, 18:35) Yes, I...   Sep 23 2006, 06:48
|- - Duble0Syx   QUOTE (LANjackal @ Sep 22 2006, 21:48) QU...   Sep 23 2006, 07:38
- - halb27   When I did lossless archiving I was very happy wit...   Sep 23 2006, 09:43
- - evereux   Here's some informative links on Lossless code...   Sep 23 2006, 09:44
|- - halb27   QUOTE (evereux @ Sep 23 2006, 10:44) Here...   Sep 23 2006, 10:03
- - guruboolez   QUOTE (adlai @ Sep 23 2006, 00:35) Monkey...   Sep 23 2006, 09:57
- - Leo 69   QUOTE Error handling (decoding after media corrupt...   Sep 23 2006, 10:09
|- - seanyseansean   QUOTE (Leo 69 @ Sep 23 2006, 10:09) QUOTE...   Sep 23 2006, 10:21
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Leo 69 @ Sep 23 2006, 11:09) QUOTE...   Sep 23 2006, 10:32
- - spoon   >c4000/5000 profiles only files are usually suf...   Sep 23 2006, 11:05
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (spoon @ Sep 23 2006, 07:05) The wh...   Sep 23 2006, 17:35
|- - greynol   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Sep 23 2006, 09:35) Nop...   Sep 23 2006, 18:00
|- - Steve J.   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Sep 23 2006, 11:35) QUO...   May 2 2007, 19:30
|- - kanak   QUOTE (Steve J. @ May 2 2007, 13:30) QUOT...   May 2 2007, 20:04
|- - Keykey   QUOTE (Steve J. @ May 2 2007, 20:30) Anyo...   May 2 2007, 21:24
- - guruboolez   I got completely different results with FLAC/WavPa...   Sep 23 2006, 11:23
|- - greynol   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Sep 23 2006, 03:23) I...   Sep 23 2006, 17:27
- - askoff   MAC doesn't seem to be available for Linux or ...   Sep 23 2006, 13:06
- - guruboolez   Monkey's code is avaible since 2003 or 2004. L...   Sep 23 2006, 13:09
|- - IgorC   Well. Monkey is 5% more efficient than FLAC SVN 20...   Sep 23 2006, 14:44
|- - MedO   QUOTE (IgorC @ Sep 23 2006, 15:44) Well. ...   Sep 23 2006, 15:23
- - askoff   I see. I haven't seen that before. Well I have...   Sep 23 2006, 14:40
- - LoFiYo   If you are worried about the filesize only, LA may...   Sep 23 2006, 16:51
- - shadowking   Yeah, way too paranoid - unless you sold your CD...   Sep 23 2006, 18:14
- - greynol   Some people are under the assumption that it is im...   Sep 23 2006, 18:18
- - guruboolez   Decoding is possible but the loss is more importan...   Sep 23 2006, 18:41
- - greynol   I know what you said, guruboolez; and in light of ...   Sep 23 2006, 18:51
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 23 2006, 19:51) I kn...   Sep 23 2006, 19:06
- - greynol   You are talking in shades of gray. That portion o...   Sep 23 2006, 19:47
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 23 2006, 20:47) No m...   Sep 23 2006, 20:03
- - greynol   QUOTE Is "BS FUD" a simple synonymous of...   Sep 23 2006, 20:24
|- - sld   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 24 2006, 03:24) We...   Sep 23 2006, 23:04
|- - Digisurfer   QUOTE (sld @ Sep 23 2006, 16:04) In the s...   Sep 26 2006, 04:08
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Digisurfer @ Sep 26 2006, 05:08) F...   Sep 26 2006, 06:36
- - Digisurfer   I've been using Monkey's Audio for close t...   Sep 23 2006, 21:09
- - greynol   Do you honestly want me to start citing all the un...   Sep 24 2006, 00:46
|- - beto   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 23 2006, 20:46) Now,...   Sep 24 2006, 14:09
- - Duble0Syx   I think the whole point of this topic is basically...   Sep 24 2006, 01:17
- - greynol   Barring how one would subjectively weight certain ...   Sep 24 2006, 01:55
|- - jido   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 23 2006, 16:55) I am...   Sep 24 2006, 12:02
- - Destroid   MAC is still the best lossless codec (that I can r...   Sep 24 2006, 03:33
- - guruboolez   I've just checked MAC 4.01 latest build error ...   Sep 24 2006, 14:20
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Sep 24 2006, 15:20) R...   Sep 24 2006, 14:48
- - guruboolez   Hmmm... I forgot to mention that I tried with MAC....   Sep 24 2006, 14:56
- - spoon   I would like to see the test with FLAC as well. ...   Sep 24 2006, 15:12
- - guruboolez   Just transcode one reference file into FLAC format...   Sep 24 2006, 15:19
- - Fandango   Interestingly this is what the "File Integrit...   Sep 24 2006, 15:22
|- - haregoo   It seems that FB2K's wv decoder can't dete...   Sep 24 2006, 16:11
- - guruboolez   I just tried with FLAC. Due to what seems to be a ...   Sep 24 2006, 15:45
|- - Fandango   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Sep 24 2006, 16:45) E...   Sep 24 2006, 16:18
- - greynol   I tried the MAC sample and verified the results. ...   Sep 24 2006, 19:16
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 24 2006, 20:16) To m...   Sep 24 2006, 19:31
||- - pest   The reason why Monkey uses large frames (up to 4s ...   Sep 24 2006, 19:47
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 24 2006, 20:16) To m...   Sep 24 2006, 19:53
|- - greynol   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Sep 24 2006, 11:53) ...   Sep 25 2006, 07:06
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 25 2006, 08:06) I do...   Sep 25 2006, 17:02
- - Leo 69   guruboolez, how would your experiment with manuall...   Sep 24 2006, 20:01
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Leo 69 @ Sep 24 2006, 21:01) gurub...   Sep 24 2006, 20:16
- - spoon   In real life if you get a bad hard drive you will ...   Sep 24 2006, 20:29
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (spoon @ Sep 24 2006, 21:29) In rea...   Sep 24 2006, 20:37
- - Leo 69   Well, the reasons for avoiding Monkey's audio ...   Sep 24 2006, 21:38
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Leo 69 @ Sep 24 2006, 22:38) Well,...   Sep 24 2006, 21:49
- - bryant   There are a few things I'd like to add to this...   Sep 24 2006, 22:58
|- - pest   QUOTE Also, WavPack currently has a CRC in each bl...   Sep 24 2006, 23:28
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (bryant @ Sep 24 2006, 23:58) This ...   Sep 24 2006, 23:35
|- - adlai   You know, now that you speak of it... Last year,...   Sep 25 2006, 01:18
- - CyberFoxx   Just thought I'd toss in my $0.02CDN. Mo...   Sep 25 2006, 02:31
- - jcoalson   one more note is that a thorough test should also ...   Sep 25 2006, 06:55
- - spoon   >One worth mentioning here is that it keeps a m...   Sep 25 2006, 08:16
- - greynol   Yes, I made a blanket statement that MAC could be ...   Sep 25 2006, 18:00
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 25 2006, 19:00) My p...   Sep 25 2006, 18:52
- - greynol   QUOTE Don't forget that there's no compara...   Sep 25 2006, 19:15
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 25 2006, 20:15) I gu...   Sep 25 2006, 19:22
- - greynol   I remember looking at it when it first appeared an...   Sep 25 2006, 19:26
- - Maglor   Hi all! I've been reading a lot of posts l...   Mar 24 2007, 14:31
- - Agrajag   Guys, glad to see this being discussed. I have ab...   Mar 28 2007, 06:33
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (Agrajag @ Mar 28 2007, 00:33) Do I...   Mar 28 2007, 16:25
|- - Agrajag   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Mar 28 2007, 07:25) wha...   Mar 28 2007, 19:22
- - halb27   Practical considerations are the most of concern, ...   Mar 28 2007, 11:51
- - jcoalson   compare http://flac.sourceforge.net/links.html#har...   Mar 28 2007, 22:03
|- - Agrajag   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Mar 28 2007, 13:03) com...   Mar 29 2007, 23:36
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (Agrajag @ Mar 29 2007, 17:36) Uh, ...   Mar 30 2007, 00:25
|- - yvin Eikeland   Hi, I'm one of the guys to blame for the lacki...   Apr 12 2007, 09:04
- - rt87   Every codec have different adventages when compari...   Apr 25 2007, 09:05
- - heiger   the smaller the best ????   May 1 2007, 19:22
- - MisterMeow   Monkey Audio is great! I love the *.ape exten...   May 2 2007, 13:36
- - shadowking   Well I've decided that the small gains in comp...   May 2 2007, 14:17
- - greynol   OptimFROG? It ought to be called OptimTURTLE. I...   May 2 2007, 16:04
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (greynol @ May 2 2007, 16:04) I tra...   May 2 2007, 18:48
|- - greynol   QUOTE ' date='May 2 2007, 10:48' post=...   May 3 2007, 02:35
|- - TBeck   QUOTE (greynol @ May 3 2007, 02:35) Not j...   May 3 2007, 02:43
- - pepoluan   I have been an OptimFROG lover... but yes I teeth ...   May 2 2007, 17:31
|- - kanak   QUOTE (pepoluan @ May 2 2007, 11:31) I ha...   May 2 2007, 19:24
- - shadowking   Classical music comparison. TAK P2e 'normal...   May 3 2007, 07:59
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