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GAPLESS Playback now in iPods - New!, Apple just announced today! GAPLESS playback...!
Maurits
post Sep 29 2006, 00:18
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QUOTE (maggior @ Sep 28 2006, 20:21) *
Can somebody verify with 100% certainty that it is NOT necessary to put all files of a gapless album on the command line of LAME when encoding? Anything that I've read indicates that you have to, but I'm new to LAME, so I may have missed something. I know that --nogap is no longer required, but I'm not sure about the files on the command line issue.

Thanks!!

What I can say is:
  • I've never heard of this necessity
    therefore
  • I've never used LAME in this fashion
    and still
  • I've yet to come across the first LAME MP3 that is not gapless in iTunes
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tycho
post Sep 29 2006, 08:46
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QUOTE (garym @ Sep 28 2006, 11:07) *
QUOTE (grommet @ Sep 28 2006, 12:16) *

QUOTE (tycho @ Sep 26 2006, 09:15) *
there is a firmware bug (v1.0.1) which makes it impossble to search within long tracks (more than 5-6 minutes)
2G nano 1.0.2. firmware should fix that.


The issue I raised before about "playing song all the way through" to insure gapless works is true on my 5G 60GB ipod with most current 1.2 update. The issue is not the ability to search long tracks, but the way it sometimes (not always) throws off the gapless transition.


With the firmware 1.0.2 on my 2G nano, it all seems to work flawlessly. I've been through 7 of my Pink Floyd albums, where most tracks have gapless transitions. No problem when I scroll to the end of the songs for checking gapless-ness.

I rip as tracks with lame -V4 --vbr-new, and tag with both id3v1 and id3v2. Also APE tags are added if I do mp3gain after encoding - none of the tags have affected the gapless playback.
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garym
post Sep 29 2006, 12:39
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QUOTE (tycho @ Sep 29 2006, 01:46) *
QUOTE (garym @ Sep 28 2006, 11:07) *

QUOTE (grommet @ Sep 28 2006, 12:16) *

QUOTE (tycho @ Sep 26 2006, 09:15) *
there is a firmware bug (v1.0.1) which makes it impossble to search within long tracks (more than 5-6 minutes)
2G nano 1.0.2. firmware should fix that.


The issue I raised before about "playing song all the way through" to insure gapless works is true on my 5G 60GB ipod with most current 1.2 update. The issue is not the ability to search long tracks, but the way it sometimes (not always) throws off the gapless transition.


With the firmware 1.0.2 on my 2G nano, it all seems to work flawlessly. I've been through 7 of my Pink Floyd albums, where most tracks have gapless transitions. No problem when I scroll to the end of the songs for checking gapless-ness.

I rip as tracks with lame -V4 --vbr-new, and tag with both id3v1 and id3v2. Also APE tags are added if I do mp3gain after encoding - none of the tags have affected the gapless playback.


I suspect the difference between your experience with the nano and mine with the 5G is that the 5G is a harddrive based system.
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Chungalin
post Oct 13 2006, 01:00
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Looks like the key of gapless playing in iPod is the "iTunSMPB" comment tag. The 4th hex value (64bits) is the real sample count, that is always less than the physical sample count encoded in the MP3 file. Somehow, with the other two values it defines a "window" inside the file in order to avoid the boundary conditions. Furthermore, seems that this 64 bit value is always multiple of 588, the number of samples contained in a CD frame or sector.

Another interesting comment tag is "iTunes_CDDB_1", contaninig the original CD TOC info in this order:
- CDDB ID
- Leadout sector LBA address
- Number of tracks
- For each track: starting track sector LBA address

This info can be very useful to reconstruct the source CD TOC so it generates the same CDDB ID after burning.
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Jojo
post Oct 14 2006, 00:12
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I just noticed that the iPod does not read the lame header (or has problems with too high enc_delay), because songs cut with pcutmp3 don't start where they are supposed to start. bummer sad.gif


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greynol
post Oct 14 2006, 01:28
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Just because it as problems with tracks split with pcutmp3 does not mean that it does not read the lame header. It's already been verified by several people that lame playback is indeed truly gapless.

How can this be if it doesn't read the lame header?

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 14 2006, 01:28


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Fuchal
post Oct 14 2006, 01:33
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On my 5G 60GB iPod, I mostly play LAME mp3 tracks, and they have played back gapless.
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krazy
post Oct 14 2006, 07:44
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QUOTE (Jojo @ Oct 14 2006, 07:12) *
I just noticed that the iPod does not read the lame header (or has problems with too high enc_delay), because songs cut with pcutmp3 don't start where they are supposed to start. bummer sad.gif

It appears to be a bug in itunes. A discussion of similar problems (with fb2k 0.8.3) is in the pcutmp3 thread. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=35654

I guess that if musicmusic adds support for writing gapless data to the ipod database in foo_dop, pcutmp3 files could be added with the correct length? unsure.gif
Discussion here: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=432119
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ezra2323
post Oct 16 2006, 00:12
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Based on everyone's observations, we know both iTunes AAC and LAME MP3 play glapless. Does anyone know about Fraunhofer MP3?
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garym
post Oct 16 2006, 04:46
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QUOTE (ezra2323 @ Oct 15 2006, 17:12) *
Based on everyone's observations, we know both iTunes AAC and LAME MP3 play glapless. Does anyone know about Fraunhofer MP3?


I have many fraunhofer mp3s that now play gaplessly on itunes and the ipod itself (5G). Coded with the codec in MMJB 7.5. For example, live concerts play with no gap and things like side 2 of Abbey Road play gapless. So, on my end the Fraunhofer mp3's work gaplessly.

Interestingly enough (as I've posted elsewhere with no responses), the fraunhofer mp3's do not play perfectly gaplessly on fb2k or winamp. My conjecture is virtually all these fraunhofer files have slight variations in time as reported by "verify integrity" within fb2k. These are all CBR 192, and the reported time error is tiny. Itunes plays fine gaplessly on these files. I suspect that the ITUNES scanning of the files for gapless info somehow stores the needed info in the itunes library. So they work gaplessly in itunes/ipod. But since they are not LAME encoded, and for some strange reason all have incorrect time errors (note I'm talking about 20,000 files here), fb2k and winamp doesn't deal with the gaps. What happens is that I get a very, very small hiccup as it moves from one song to another...that is "almost" gapless but not quite. I do NOT get this on the same songs in ITUNES.

On songs that I've encoded with LAME (last 3 years of stuff), I get gapless on itunes/ipod and fb2k and winamp. So it is definitely something with the fraunhoffer files. Any thoughts on why all 20,000 of these files get time difference warnings from "verify integrity" within fb2k???
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grommet
post Oct 16 2006, 07:50
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garym, iTunes 7 has some (currently undocumented) logic to eliminate the gaps on content that isn't gapless by design. That's part of the "magic" it does when evaluating your content for gapless playback. In your case, iTunes seems to do a very good job at gap elimination for FhG MP3 content... just like pre-existing iTunes MP3 and AAC encodes.

foobar2000 only supports "true" gapless MP3, using the additional LAME header info.
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kwanbis
post Oct 18 2006, 04:46
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iTunes just told me that firmware 1.3 for my nano was available

iPod Software 1.3 for iPod nano

Support for additional Nike + iPod voice kits

Bug fixes


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shifuimam
post Oct 20 2006, 18:48
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hey all - I hope this hasn't been 100% covered yet (I don't have enough time in a day to look through all 12 pages of this thread...sorry!)

I've got a 60GB Photo running the latest firmware. I enabled gapless on some tracks in iTunes, but they're MP3s (not AAC or MP4), and I have no idea what encoder was used for them.

My understanding is that gapless will NOT work on MP3s that were not encoded using iTunes, correct?

That's how it would appear at this point. I'm testing with some techno albums, and there's a definite gap between tracks.

I'm starting to think my only option is to re-encode everything in iTunes...which would take awhile considering I'm up to 40GB of music. sad.gif
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Sebastian Mares
post Oct 20 2006, 21:53
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I think LAME MP3s also work, but I am not 100% sure since I use AAC only.


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Maurits
post Oct 20 2006, 22:03
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I'd choose either iTunes AAC encoder or LAME MP3 encoder. Both are native gapless in iTunes. You could use iTunes MP3 encoder but is has no benefit whatsoever over LAME while its quality is generally considered lower than LAME.

Mind you, gapless should even work rather well on MP3's not made by iTunes or LAME although it's not as perfect as the genuine stuff.
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greynol
post Oct 20 2006, 22:27
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This thread is well worth looking over. This stuff has already been covered in graat detail. Even someone from Apple has taken the time to contribute.

Otherwise it's only going to get longer with people asking the same questions over and over because they'd rather do this than make any kind of effort.


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Axon
post Oct 20 2006, 23:57
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I was working on a summary thread. Sticky, anybody?
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kritip
post Nov 2 2006, 00:19
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Haven't tested yet or noticed any previous mention but i just got a 1.3 update for my older nano, "bug fixes", lets hope its gapless smile.gif
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kornchild2002
post Nov 2 2006, 03:06
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QUOTE (shifuimam @ Oct 20 2006, 11:48) *
hey all - I hope this hasn't been 100% covered yet (I don't have enough time in a day to look through all 12 pages of this thread...sorry!)

I've got a 60GB Photo running the latest firmware. I enabled gapless on some tracks in iTunes, but they're MP3s (not AAC or MP4), and I have no idea what encoder was used for them.

My understanding is that gapless will NOT work on MP3s that were not encoded using iTunes, correct?

That's how it would appear at this point. I'm testing with some techno albums, and there's a definite gap between tracks.

I'm starting to think my only option is to re-encode everything in iTunes...which would take awhile considering I'm up to 40GB of music. sad.gif


This is NOT true. iTunes is pretty much able to play any properly encoded mp3 or AAC file gaplessly. There were some initial problems with Nero AAC files but I think that has been fixed. I currently have iTunes 7.0.2 and a older 5G iPod model with the latest firmware. Most of my library is encoded with Lame 3.97 (final) at -V 2 --vbr-new and all of my Lame 3.97 files playback gaplessly. I have some older iTunes AAC content, Nero AAC, FhG mp3s, and mp3s made from older versions of Lame. I have yet to come across a file that didn't playback gaplessly. If you are having issues with your music not playing back gaplessly, then the mp3s might be corrupt or you need to download the new version of iTunes released a couple of days ago. Make sure to go to itunes.com as the iTunes update module currently does not detect iTunes 7.0.2.
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singaiya
post Nov 2 2006, 04:19
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Kornchild,
In this thread, you say that Nero AAC seems gapless since itunes 7.0.1. This isn't true on the one live album I tested with (using 7.0.1.8). It may seem gapless if you're not paying attention, but a small gap is definitely still present; I checked against foobar 0.8.3 behavior of the same Nero AAC files.

Haven't tried with 7.0.2, but I'm not going to do the full download just to find out.
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me7
post Nov 2 2006, 09:56
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QUOTE (singaiya @ Nov 2 2006, 04:19) *
Kornchild,
In this thread, you say that Nero AAC seems gapless since itunes 7.0.1. This isn't true on the one live album I tested with (using 7.0.1.8). It may seem gapless if you're not paying attention, but a small gap is definitely still present; I checked against foobar 0.8.3 behavior of the same Nero AAC files.

Haven't tried with 7.0.2, but I'm not going to do the full download just to find out.


I tried it, still not gapless with Nero AAC. I guess it will never be to help promote their own AAC encoder.
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tycho
post Nov 2 2006, 10:40
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QUOTE (me7 @ Nov 2 2006, 00:56) *
QUOTE (singaiya @ Nov 2 2006, 04:19) *

Kornchild,
In this thread, you say that Nero AAC seems gapless since itunes 7.0.1. This isn't true on the one live album I tested with (using 7.0.1.8). It may seem gapless if you're not paying attention, but a small gap is definitely still present; I checked against foobar 0.8.3 behavior of the same Nero AAC files.

Haven't tried with 7.0.2, but I'm not going to do the full download just to find out.


I tried it, still not gapless with Nero AAC. I guess it will never be to help promote their own AAC encoder.

Well, I guess Nero could make an update to their encoder and add the gapless meta info in the same format as the iTunes encoder uses, which would make them gapless compatible. That's up to Nero.
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kornchild2002
post Nov 2 2006, 13:55
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QUOTE (singaiya @ Nov 1 2006, 21:19) *
Kornchild,
In this thread, you say that Nero AAC seems gapless since itunes 7.0.1. This isn't true on the one live album I tested with (using 7.0.1.8). It may seem gapless if you're not paying attention, but a small gap is definitely still present; I checked against foobar 0.8.3 behavior of the same Nero AAC files.

Haven't tried with 7.0.2, but I'm not going to do the full download just to find out.


That is strange as I have 3 albums encoded with Nero's latest AAC encoder, all of them are gapless. Sometimes, the first time I played them, there would be a very small gap. Now, anytime I go back and play the files on my iPod or in iTunes, they playback gaplessly. I guess the issues with Nero AAC haven't completely disappeared. I may have to go and test some other albums (like Tool's Lateralus) using Nero's AAC encoder and iTunes 7.0.2.
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Maurits
post Nov 2 2006, 14:36
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Nov 2 2006, 13:55) *
QUOTE (singaiya @ Nov 1 2006, 21:19) *

Kornchild,
In this thread, you say that Nero AAC seems gapless since itunes 7.0.1. This isn't true on the one live album I tested with (using 7.0.1.8). It may seem gapless if you're not paying attention, but a small gap is definitely still present; I checked against foobar 0.8.3 behavior of the same Nero AAC files.

Haven't tried with 7.0.2, but I'm not going to do the full download just to find out.


That is strange as I have 3 albums encoded with Nero's latest AAC encoder, all of them are gapless. Sometimes, the first time I played them, there would be a very small gap. Now, anytime I go back and play the files on my iPod or in iTunes, they playback gaplessly. I guess the issues with Nero AAC haven't completely disappeared. I may have to go and test some other albums (like Tool's Lateralus) using Nero's AAC encoder and iTunes 7.0.2.

Well, since iTunes apparently doesn't read NeroAAC's gapless data it reverts to its 'magic guessing procedure' to get this data. This may sometimes be 99% right (inaudible), sometimes 80% right (barely audible) and sometimes 40% right (clearly audible).

That might explain why results vary among users. I think Apple did a pretty good job on this 'magic guessing procedure', it's just not 100% right all of the time.
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clunesy
post Nov 2 2006, 18:01
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What if, like me, you don't give a monkeys, and you just want to use itunes to loads videos onto a 5G that you've already loaded exactly how you want with a custom database from ape tags, using foo_pod ? How much would it be to ask to be able to completely disable the feature, so that itunes doesn't wade in and completely screw up the tags in your itunesDB ? Stuck on itunes 6.0.5 until there is a workaround. (Do the 2nd gen 5G's work with itunes 6.0.5 out of interest?)

Niels

This post has been edited by clunesy: Nov 2 2006, 18:02
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