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GAPLESS Playback now in iPods - New!, Apple just announced today! GAPLESS playback...!
tycho
post Sep 27 2006, 19:57
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QUOTE (Rochey @ Sep 27 2006, 09:43) *
I've just split an mp3/cue with pcutmp3 and found that it plays gapless in foobar2k but not on itunes 7 or the ipod 5G 80gb.

My understanding is that both itunes 7 (ipod) and foobar2k use the lame tag for the gapless info, so why is it gapless in foobar2k and not on the Ipod (itunes 7)?

Only SebastianG is able to tell if the lame tags with the gapless info is written exactly as lame does it itself, but if Foobar2k works, in theory iTunes should get it right too.

Are you sure iTunes "searched for gapless info" before it transfered files to your ipod?

You may also try to retransfer them with the new Winamp 5.30. Make sure to go to the preferences in the Portable -> iPod -> Advanced, and scan for gapless info there before transfering.
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benski
post Sep 27 2006, 20:13
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QUOTE (tycho @ Sep 27 2006, 14:57) *
You may also try to retransfer them with the new Winamp 5.30. Make sure to go to the preferences in the Portable -> iPod -> Advanced, and scan for gapless info there before transfering.

This is only necessary for old files already on the ipod.
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Rochey
post Sep 27 2006, 21:22
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Just been playing some more and found that the first track that I cut with pcutmp3 is gapless to the second on both itunes and the ipod but the next 3 or 4 I tried had a slight gap, strange?!

Can I upload the album to my ipod using winamp 5.3 and not disturb any of the itunes info as I'd hate to upload my library again?
Also does winamp deal with the gapless differently to itunes?

cheers

Rochey
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benski
post Sep 27 2006, 22:09
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QUOTE (Rochey @ Sep 27 2006, 16:22) *
Can I upload the album to my ipod using winamp 5.3 and not disturb any of the itunes info as I'd hate to upload my library again?
Also does winamp deal with the gapless differently to itunes?


You can use the same ipod with both Winamp and iTunes. However, it's probably best to use only one or the other (or else back up your itunesdb file often smile.gif
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kwanbis
post Sep 27 2006, 22:25
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iTunes 7.0.1 is released.


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Rochey
post Sep 28 2006, 00:19
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It's really starting to frustrate me now.

All the cd's that I rip manually using EAC and Lame 3.96.1 all appear to be gapless on both my ipod 5G 80gb and itunes 7. This is great.

I have got a couple of continuous mp3's which I have split using the .cue file and pcutmp3. Now when I play these newly split mp3's in itunes SOMETIMES they are gapless and other times they are not (it seems totally inconsistant). And then on top of that the Ipod NEVER seems to be gapless on these newly made mp3's!!! How frustrating!!!

It's great that the Ipod has gapless and now that it does I want all my mp3's to work. Maybe I'm asking too much.

I haven't tried using winamp 5.3 as I don't want to have to re-download all my mp3's, although I will test if anyone thinks that winamp does the gapless differently.

If anyone can help it would be greatly apprieciated.

Also another route I was thinking is mounting the mp3 and cue as an image and ripping it using EAC but I don't think that there is anything out there that supports this. If anyone has heard of any tool that does this then please let me know.

I look forward to the replys.

Rochey
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benski
post Sep 28 2006, 00:22
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QUOTE (Rochey @ Sep 27 2006, 19:19) *
I have got a couple of continuous mp3's which I have split using the .cue file and pcutmp3. Now when I play these newly split mp3's in itunes SOMETIMES they are gapless and other times they are not (it seems totally inconsistant). And then on top of that the Ipod NEVER seems to be gapless on these newly made mp3's!!! How frustrating!!!


I'm not familiar with pcutmp3. Does it write a new Xing/LAME header at the beginning of the files it creates? If it does, are the padding values that it writes accurate? Do the pcutmp3-generated files play gapless in a Winamp or foobar?
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krazy
post Sep 28 2006, 02:15
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[complete guess mode]

All the files I have split using pcutmp3 work great in foobar (I don't have an ipod). However, they do have very large values of <ENC_DELAY> and <ENC_PADDING>. Much larger than files generated by normal CD rips (eg. 2856/1440 vs. 576/1380).

Could it be that itunes/ipod can't handle such large values? (As Sebastian mentions, fb2k 0.8.3 doesn't)

[/complete guess mode]
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michael.conner
post Sep 28 2006, 05:38
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Ok, I've had some weird luck with LAME files and gapless in the new iTunes 7/iPod firmware 1.2 combo.

CD: Brian Wilson "Smile"
Problematic track transition: 07 Wonderful / 08 Song for Children

With straight-up lame -V 4 --vbr-new encode, the iPod cuts maybe 100 milliseconds off the end of track 7 or the beginning off of track 8 and the rhythm is messed up as a result.

lame -V 4 --vbr-new --nogap encode, the transition is a little smoother, but the rhythm is still wrong. I did run the resulting files through vbrfix to get the reported track lengths corrected.

lame -V 4 --vbr-new --nogaptags --nogap encode: PERFECT transition. (re: --nogaptags -- I got in the habit of encoding with this along with --nogap with an old Archos Jukebox using Rockbox as per their wiki for Archos machines. I've been told it's wrong to use it. And yet it works...)

Pretty much any other gapless CD I have in LAME on my hard drive was encoded using --nogaptags --nogap as the extra parameters but work perfectly gaplessly. I've been recently told that LAME is supposed to be gapless by nature and that --nogap is redundant and --nogaptags is definitely not useful. Any idea why I've had this experience?
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Gabriel
post Sep 28 2006, 08:41
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--nogap is a kludge that assume a specific behaviour of the decoder/player.
If you stop using --nogap, you'll have proper gapless decoding in Fb2k/Winamp/iTunes.
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michael.conner
post Sep 28 2006, 14:28
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QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 28 2006, 02:41) *
--nogap is a kludge that assume a specific behaviour of the decoder/player.
If you stop using --nogap, you'll have proper gapless decoding in Fb2k/Winamp/iTunes.


Right, that's what I've been told -- but like I said, I did a "normal" encode without --nogap and did *not* have proper gapless decoding in the iPod. I ripped the CD to .WAV using EAC and encoded using RazorLame with Lame 3.97 using -V 4 --vbr-new and did not have a smooth gapless transition between the two tracks on the iPod.

Edit: I should point out that I did have perfect gapless playback with those same files (the ones encoded without --nogap) in foobar and iTunes, just not on the iPod.

This post has been edited by michael.conner: Sep 28 2006, 15:37
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Canar
post Sep 28 2006, 16:34
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My own, revised findings are that LAME MP3 usually works. Every once in a while, my iPod screws up a transition. I'll go back and try it again and get gapless playback. I think there are still some sizable bugs in gapless. pcutmp3 mp3s don't work consistently either, despite having proper LAME headers with all the required info.

This post has been edited by Canar: Sep 28 2006, 16:34


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maggior
post Sep 28 2006, 17:14
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QUOTE (michael.conner @ Sep 28 2006, 09:28) *
Right, that's what I've been told -- but like I said, I did a "normal" encode without --nogap and did *not* have proper gapless decoding in the iPod. I ripped the CD to .WAV using EAC and encoded using RazorLame with Lame 3.97 using -V 4 --vbr-new and did not have a smooth gapless transition between the two tracks on the iPod.


I'm new to this (to LAME that is, not digital audio in general) so my suggestions/comments may be obvious. If they are, I apologize.

My understanding is that when you encode tracks to be gapless, they must all be specified on the command line of LAME at the same time. Utilities that only place one file at a time on the command line will not result in gapless files. I think RazorLame puts only a single file on the command line at a time.

The only frontend that I've seen that allows for this is ALL2LAME. There is a check box for gapless and you need to set "dividers" between albums by clicking a button. This causes the files grouped together as albums to all be put on the command line of LAME together.

Perhaps this will help you out.

Rich

This post has been edited by maggior: Sep 28 2006, 17:16
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michael.conner
post Sep 28 2006, 18:21
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QUOTE (maggior @ Sep 28 2006, 11:14) *
QUOTE (michael.conner @ Sep 28 2006, 09:28) *


Right, that's what I've been told -- but like I said, I did a "normal" encode without --nogap and did *not* have proper gapless decoding in the iPod. I ripped the CD to .WAV using EAC and encoded using RazorLame with Lame 3.97 using -V 4 --vbr-new and did not have a smooth gapless transition between the two tracks on the iPod.


I'm new to this (to LAME that is, not digital audio in general) so my suggestions/comments may be obvious. If they are, I apologize.

My understanding is that when you encode tracks to be gapless, they must all be specified on the command line of LAME at the same time. Utilities that only place one file at a time on the command line will not result in gapless files. I think RazorLame puts only a single file on the command line at a time.

The only frontend that I've seen that allows for this is ALL2LAME. There is a check box for gapless and you need to set "dividers" between albums by clicking a button. This causes the files grouped together as albums to all be put on the command line of LAME together.

Perhaps this will help you out.

Rich


Thanks... actually, I used ALL2LAME for the two "gapless" encodes. As I understand it, checking the "No Gap" box in ALL2LAME simply puts in the --nogap command while encoding.

The first time I encoded using ALL2LAME, I used "-V 4 --vbr-new" and clicked the "No Gap" box. Resulting files have a faulty transition *every time* on the iPod (although less faulty than when I used Razorlame).

The second time, I used "-V 4 --vbr-new --nogaptags" and clicked on "No Gap." The resulting files have a perfect transition every time.

(As a side note, encoding the same files with iTunes AAC is perfect every time.)

It may be that for whatever reason, iTunes' gapless scanning can be occasionally buggy.

QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 28 2006, 10:34) *
My own, revised findings are that LAME MP3 usually works. Every once in a while, my iPod screws up a transition. I'll go back and try it again and get gapless playback. I think there are still some sizable bugs in gapless. pcutmp3 mp3s don't work consistently either, despite having proper LAME headers with all the required info.


I think so, too, about the bugs in gapless playback. I have been finding AAC gapless pretty flawless. But I've had that same experience you had, too, where going back made it work correctly. Those two Brian Wilson tracks I mentioned in my earlier post are the first ones I've had be consistently bad.
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garym
post Sep 28 2006, 18:29
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QUOTE (michael.conner @ Sep 28 2006, 11:21) *
QUOTE (maggior @ Sep 28 2006, 11:14) *

QUOTE (michael.conner @ Sep 28 2006, 09:28) *


Right, that's what I've been told -- but like I said, I did a "normal" encode without --nogap and did *not* have proper gapless decoding in the iPod. I ripped the CD to .WAV using EAC and encoded using RazorLame with Lame 3.97 using -V 4 --vbr-new and did not have a smooth gapless transition between the two tracks on the iPod.


I'm new to this (to LAME that is, not digital audio in general) so my suggestions/comments may be obvious. If they are, I apologize.

My understanding is that when you encode tracks to be gapless, they must all be specified on the command line of LAME at the same time. Utilities that only place one file at a time on the command line will not result in gapless files. I think RazorLame puts only a single file on the command line at a time.

The only frontend that I've seen that allows for this is ALL2LAME. There is a check box for gapless and you need to set "dividers" between albums by clicking a button. This causes the files grouped together as albums to all be put on the command line of LAME together.

Perhaps this will help you out.

Rich


Thanks... actually, I used ALL2LAME for the two "gapless" encodes. As I understand it, checking the "No Gap" box in ALL2LAME simply puts in the --nogap command while encoding.

The first time I encoded using ALL2LAME, I used "-V 4 --vbr-new" and clicked the "No Gap" box. Resulting files have a faulty transition *every time* on the iPod (although less faulty than when I used Razorlame).

The second time, I used "-V 4 --vbr-new --nogaptags" and clicked on "No Gap." The resulting files have a perfect transition every time.

(As a side note, encoding the same files with iTunes AAC is perfect every time.)

It may be that for whatever reason, iTunes' gapless scanning can be occasionally buggy.

QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 28 2006, 10:34) *
My own, revised findings are that LAME MP3 usually works. Every once in a while, my iPod screws up a transition. I'll go back and try it again and get gapless playback. I think there are still some sizable bugs in gapless. pcutmp3 mp3s don't work consistently either, despite having proper LAME headers with all the required info.


I think so, too, about the bugs in gapless playback. I have been finding AAC gapless pretty flawless. But I've had that same experience you had, too, where going back made it work correctly. Those two Brian Wilson tracks I mentioned in my earlier post are the first ones I've had be consistently bad.


One of the issues I've noticed with gapless on IPOD itself is that it often doesn't work if you fast forward through a song to get close to the end to "check" for gapless. The very act of moving through the song seems to throw things off. I've listed to many gapless on the IPOD over the last few days (lots of live concerts) and it seems to work perfectly with lame and old fhg CBR files so long as I play the song all the way through. Probably a function of the cache, etc. within the ipod itself.
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michael.conner
post Sep 28 2006, 18:41
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QUOTE (garym @ Sep 28 2006, 12:29) *
One of the issues I've noticed with gapless on IPOD itself is that it often doesn't work if you fast forward through a song to get close to the end to "check" for gapless. The very act of moving through the song seems to throw things off. I've listed to many gapless on the IPOD over the last few days (lots of live concerts) and it seems to work perfectly with lame and old fhg CBR files so long as I play the song all the way through. Probably a function of the cache, etc. within the ipod itself.


AHA! I just tried the two "bad" files again, just let them go all the way through -- perfect gapless. Thanks!
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greynol
post Sep 28 2006, 18:51
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QUOTE (maggior @ Sep 28 2006, 09:14) *
My understanding is that when you encode tracks to be gapless, they must all be specified on the command line of LAME at the same time. Utilities that only place one file at a time on the command line will not result in gapless files.

I'm just about 100% certain this is not true. I believe that as of Lame 3.90.3, gapless information is placed in the lame header by default. My tracks are gapless in foobar2000, Winamp and iTunes7 and I have done nothing special to my Lame command line.

EDIT: Going out on a limb and striking my uncertainty... tongue.gif

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 28 2006, 20:41


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grommet
post Sep 28 2006, 19:16
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QUOTE (tycho @ Sep 26 2006, 09:15) *
there is a firmware bug (v1.0.1) which makes it impossble to search within long tracks (more than 5-6 minutes)
2G nano 1.0.2. firmware should fix that.
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garym
post Sep 28 2006, 20:07
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QUOTE (grommet @ Sep 28 2006, 12:16) *
QUOTE (tycho @ Sep 26 2006, 09:15) *
there is a firmware bug (v1.0.1) which makes it impossble to search within long tracks (more than 5-6 minutes)
2G nano 1.0.2. firmware should fix that.


The issue I raised before about "playing song all the way through" to insure gapless works is true on my 5G 60GB ipod with most current 1.2 update. The issue is not the ability to search long tracks, but the way it sometimes (not always) throws off the gapless transition.
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maggior
post Sep 28 2006, 20:21
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 28 2006, 13:51) *
QUOTE (maggior @ Sep 28 2006, 09:14) *
My understanding is that when you encode tracks to be gapless, they must all be specified on the command line of LAME at the same time. Utilities that only place one file at a time on the command line will not result in gapless files.

I'm just about 100% certain this is not true. I believe that as of Lame 3.90.3, gapless information is placed in the lame header by default. My tracks are gapless in foobar2000, Winamp and iTunes7 and I have done nothing special to my Lame command line.


This is probably straying off topic, but it is still regarding gapless and playback on iPod. I'll be moving to using an iPod with files encoded with LAME and I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly before I go nuts encoding all of my music.

Can somebody verify with 100% certainty that it is NOT necessary to put all files of a gapless album on the command line of LAME when encoding? Anything that I've read indicates that you have to, but I'm new to LAME, so I may have missed something. I know that --nogap is no longer required, but I'm not sure about the files on the command line issue.

Thanks!!
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greynol
post Sep 28 2006, 20:25
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I should have also mentioned that my gapless lame files are created one at a time.

EDIT: And my thinking as to why you're seeing gaps is because you are seeking within the track rather than letting it play through, which is commonly known to create problems.

EDIT #2: one at a time

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 28 2006, 20:30


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maggior
post Sep 28 2006, 20:27
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QUOTE (michael.conner @ Sep 28 2006, 09:28) *
Thanks... actually, I used ALL2LAME for the two "gapless" encodes. As I understand it, checking the "No Gap" box in ALL2LAME simply puts in the --nogap command while encoding.


Actually, this also forces ALL2LAME to put the files all onto a single command line with LAME.exe.

From the ALL2LAME documentation:
"No Gap:

When "No Gap" is checked the --nogap switch is set and all filenames are put on one command line (my emphasis). Some things you should know about the --nogap switch:"
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greynol
post Sep 28 2006, 20:34
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With foobar2000, it's quite easy to see the gapless info.

Right-click>Properties>Properties tab>General Section>Duration

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[JAZ]
post Sep 28 2006, 21:19
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Complementing what has already been said:

don't use --nogap

It doesn't fix the gap problem in general.

It works like if one had cut an mp3 at a frame boundary, and not using bit reservoir on those two frames.
This doesn't remove the delay a decoder would introduce when starting to decode.

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Rochey
post Sep 28 2006, 23:53
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Got an idea for the long mp3's with a cue sheet, don't know how feasible it is for you guys.

How about mounting the cue file in foobar2k using it to create an image via Nero 7.5 and then using EAC to rip the new tracks.

I have just done it and the whole process took about 7-10mins to do. I loaded the newly ripped tracks on itunes and they all played completely gaplessly.I haven't tried my ipod but I would assume it will also be gapless as everything that I ripped using EAC has been gapless.

The only downside to this is audio quality but still it's a possible workaround for the long mp3's that we want to split.

Could someone explain the loss of audio quality through this process to me? If the loss of audio is only negligable then I think that I will start to split my long mp3's this way.
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