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Nero Burrrn BurnAtOnce Multi Session CD Audio + Data
directjj
post Jul 26 2006, 02:06
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How can I create a Multi-Session Disk, e.g. Audio & Data Disc, adding new session(s) (e.g. the Data Session) on a different day, possibly on a different PC or with a different Application.

1) Low on Disk space and want to burn audio CD without discarding compressed lossy or lossless source files.

2) I have Nero 6, Burrrn, & starting today BurnAtOnce.

Nero can't use a .cue file to burn individual song files.

Burrrn can do it and if you don't check Close CD Burrrn will close the Audio Session BUT leave the CD Open for additional sessions.

Open to software suggestions.

3) After burning the Audio, I want to burn the source files to the same CD if there is room (2nd data session)

4) I do know how to do it in a single Nero operation with certain preconditions...

Nero Express Music Audio & Data CD

and then burn the combo disk in a single pass.

This works PROVIDING:

4a) Audio is in individual (.ape, .mpe, .flac, .wav) song files (not a whole album)

4b) You don't use a .cue file (playlists are OK).
Nero can't use a .cue to burn individual songs. Burrrn CAN.

4c) Could not do it, if e.g. I had a Album.cue pointing to Album.ape, or Album.flac, or Album.wav. I.E.

Nero could only make a single session Audio CD that way...

Nero Express Image Project Copy Disc Image...

...select the Album.cue file, which will burn the Audio Disk with Tracks and CD-Text but doesn't allow for second session containng source file DATA (actual .ape, .flac, .mp3 compresses source files).

5) I have used Burrrn with a album.cue file pointing to individual song.flac files to burn the Audio session.

I did not check Close CD, so the CD is open for another session. Nero InfoTool Confirms this.

6) How do I add the second session, the data session using Nero, Burrrn, BurnAtOnce etc.? Roxio 7?

I don't think I can use Burrrn to create the second session, at least not if it is data (raw .flac source tracks)

I tried poking around in Nero to see where it will look at the partially burnt CD, see the one session, and create a second data session for me to dump the .flac source files, .jpgs, etc. in. If Nero can do it, I need help how.


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Martin H
post Jul 26 2006, 02:17
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Just use Nero or burnatonce to write the data to the disc ie. make a data project and burn it on the disc with the audio session.
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AndyH-ha
post Jul 26 2006, 04:38
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I write both audio and data to most CD-Rs. I don't have your considerations about cue lists or whatever, so things are not exactly the same. When I write audio it is always just some number of individual wav files, but if you get the audio files you want onto the disk without closing it, you should now be ready to write data the same way I do.

Using Nero, I now start as a regular data CD, NOT a multi-session one. The programs accepts the still open audio CD (which was written DAO). It writes the data files to it. Done. This can be done anytime after the audio was written: immediately, hours later, days later.

If you are unable to write all the data at one time, that is, if you wish to write data files, then come back latter and add more, I don't think it can be done with Nero. If I attempt to start the data writing process by selecting multi-session (thus attempting to set-up for additional data sessions later), the program will not use the disk with audio on it. When I select single session, the CD is finalized after writing the data. I can, however, do the multi-step process with Easy CD-Creator.
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directjj
post Jul 26 2006, 19:19
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 25 2006, 23:38) *
If I attempt to start the data writing process by selecting multi-session (thus attempting to set-up for additional data sessions later), the program will not use the disk with audio on it. When I select single session, the CD is finalized after writing the data. I can, however, do the multi-step process with Easy CD-Creator.


I really like Nero as a company / product especially compared to Roxio, but as good as Nero is, it seems always be "close but no cigar".

The user interface here is not at all clear. I tried Smart Start, Nero Express, and Nero itself to see a logical path to what I want to do.

Nowhere could I get Nero to "look" at the audio on the disc and take into account how much space was already gone.

Anyhow when I got to the Burn Compilation / CD-ROM (ISO)

On Top there are three choices:

Start Multisession

Continue MultiSession (DIMMED)

No Multisession

The DIMMED choice seems to be the one I would want but it is dimmed.

The Options below (Refresh compilation when importing session) were dimmed.
"Importing Session sounds like what I really want to do? There is a session already on disk..."

Anyhow I checked No MultiSession based on what you suggested & it barfed and said it couldn't write to the disk because it wasn't empty (still doesn't show you what's on it or how much space is available).

Next, I tried checking "Start Multisession". THIS time it told me there was not enough space, how much space was available , how much required in a dialog box. It never showed the audio in the space thermometer at the bottom.

Since there wasn't enough room for the data (how would I know Nero doesn't show what is already there - Windows Explorer?), I thought well lets burn the .jpgs, there will be room for them.

Nero comes back and warns me that I EITHER checked Start Multisession or No Multisession and that if it writes to the disc, what is already on the disk will nolonger be viewable via Windows Explorer.

Kept playing around Nero File New

selecting either CD-ROM (UDF) or CD-ROM (UDF/ISO) enables the continue MultiSession and the options below.

In fact if I go back now to CD-ROM (ISO) it is also enabled but I think that is a bug.

With all 3 of the above variations I try various check boxes in the options below with Continue MultiSession Disc on top and hit New.

In each case it SHOWS me the audio tracks on the CD in a Select Track Dialog and asks me to select a track to continue multisession writing but it will not let me select a track.

Maybe Nero doesn't like a MultiSession Disk started by Burrrn.

So my experimenting with Nero on this particular disk is over. I'll just use it as an audio disk (left open cause I don't know how to close it) and burn my FLAC files to DVD or something.

Maybe I will try playing with Burrrn so more. Like Nero Burrrn is a very slick application that is "Close But No Cigar". It does some things Nero won't do, like handle most any .cue including an AlbumFile.cue pointing to individual SongFile.ape/.flac/.wav files. Why Nero ( a much bigger company that is not giving its product away) can't handle .cues a little company like Burrrn can is beyond me.

I have yet to play around with BurnAtOnce, and from its name I know it can burn audio & data, but if it can pick up where another app left off is another issue or if it can do multi day sessions.

Someone also recommend CDBurnerXP Pro.

You figure that between Roxio & Nero they would have all bases covered and there would be no room for the little guys, but fortunately the little guys exist because the big guys can't do it all right.


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directjj
post Jul 26 2006, 19:33
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Jul 25 2006, 21:17) *
Just use Nero or burnatonce to write the data to the disc ie. make a data project and burn it on the disc with the audio session.


Read my other reply concerning trying to do this with Nero.

Anyhow with Burrrn there is no help file or documentation that I know of.

If I hit Disc Info it tells me about the disk and says

Sessions 1
Last Audio Track 14
Appendable Yes
...
Remaining Capacity 178MB

I'm guessing Burrrn can append more AUDIO tracks in a second session (assuming it closed the first session - we KNOW it did not close the disk. If it didn't close the session maybe that is why Nero barfs.)

But when you hit the Add button the list of supported file types doesn't include anything but audio type files. I couldn't add a text file or a .jpg and I suspect if I select the FLAC files, it is not going to burn them as FLAC data files, but convert them like it did when it burned the first session the audio session.

I don't think Burrrn will burn data as data but looks for audio data files and converts them to CDA.


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Martin H
post Jul 27 2006, 03:12
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First of all, Burrrn can only write audio files, and when you burn without having enabled the 'close disc' option, then the audio session will be closed after writing, but the disc will be left open. Second, you are making a CD-EXTRA, and not a standard data multisession CD, so you should either choose 'No multisession' or 'start multisession' in Nero, but as AndyH-ha kindly has reported that 'start multisession' dosen't work, then you should select 'no multisession'. Then you just add the data files, and select to burn the compilation. What i suspect is your problem, is that the disc info dialog in Burrrn showed that you only had 178MB space left on the disc, and since you want to add FLAC files of an album to the disc, then are you sure that there is enough space left on the disc ?

Also i would say that archiving lossless files directly on burned audio CDs is a very bad backup plan. It is much better to backup the lossless archive to either an external harddrive or to DVD+R's.

Edit: I have personally never made any CD-EXTRA's before, so i don't know for sure that this will work with Nero, but in theory it should...

This post has been edited by Martin H: Jul 27 2006, 03:16
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AndyH-ha
post Jul 27 2006, 09:56
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Unfortunately memory was corrupted. For reasons too involved and uninteresting to go into, I am now using another writing application and did not remember all the Nero details. With Nero, the correct option to write a data session after audio is "start multisession disk." Then, I'm fairly sure, you just add the data files you want. There is no evidence of the existing audio files anywhere on the Nero screens. (This was all done with Nero 5.5).

It is true that afterwards the audio session will no longer show up in Windows Explorer but what did being able to see CDA 01, CDA 02, .... ever do for you? Once the data session is in place, windows only sees the disk as a data CD.

Audio applications, on the other hand, will continue to see the disk as audio. Well, some of the will. Plextor's Audio Capture 2000 only recognizes and displays the audio tracks. EAC shows the audio tracks plus one track. That last one is the data. Programs such as WinAmp and Foobar2000 use the Windows Explorer motif and thus only show the data files.

The important thing is that audio CD players see the disk as an audio CD. EAC will still extract the audio (as long as you don't select that bogus last track). Data loving programs will be able to read the data files from the CD. For a reasonable person, all bases are covered.

Nero provides two ways to make multi-session disks. One is for incremental backups. You can select options such as
replace files in compilation
remove deleted files from compilation
add new files to compilation

I suppose these are good if you have a need for such things but I most definitely don't want the program screwing with my data. I make sure none of those are checked. Now each session is totally independent of anything already in place and the program totally ignores what came before its current activity. This gives the results I want.

Nero has an option labeled "CD-info" (under CD-Recorder on the menu bar). This will tell you how many sessions are already on the CD and how much free space the disk has.
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directjj
post Jul 27 2006, 21:09
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Jul 26 2006, 22:12) *
You are making a CD-EXTRA...

archiving lossless files directly on burned audio CDs is a very bad backup plan. It is much better to backup the lossless archive to either an external harddrive or to DVD+R's.

I have personally never made any CD-EXTRA's


I have made CD+Extras with Nero and nothing but Nero in one operation. Your chance for a coaster (remember those?) is just a little higher than burning a normal audio CD which almost never fails with modern PC's and burner drives.

Doing it all with Nero in one pass is nice because you can see if you have room for the source files on the CD before you start the burn.

BUT YOU CAN'T USE A .CUE FILE TO DO THIS. Niether a album.cue pointing to an album.flac/ape nor a album.cue pointing to SongTrack.flac's/ape's.

Nero can't do .cue files pointing to SongTrack.flac's/ape's even for a simple audio CD. Burrrn can.

One reason for putting the source files on the same CD is it costs you nothing but time, and you know where to find them - in the same Jewel Case and on the same CD. Burning to a second CD takes a little longer but can go in same CD Jewel Case.

Fact is, if I could find a cheap CD Player to attach to my stereo that would Play .FLAC & APE files I might not bother burning CD Audio. My music collection is large enough, it would not kill me to not be able to play these discs in my car. I could put more than one album on a CD.

I am starting to save my Blues .flac's on DVD+RW labels A, B, C so I know which media would have Joe Blow (the J for Joe disk).

It is very ironic. I have a $1,000 (list price) Onkyo TX-NR801 receiver which has an Ethernet port and is attached to my router. The software on the PC is proprietary and I don't really like it. I can play MP3 and .WMA through this connection but not .ape or .flac and I can't use foobar, winamp, or other applications of my choice to SEND my music to the Onkyo.

If I could, I could play my .flac files either from my hard drive or from CD+R or DVD+RW with the .flac and .cue and not bother burning CDA. This wouldn't be necessary if someone made a cheap component CD Player that would read .flac or .ape. I'm thinking it is a conspiracy that only .mp3 or maybe .wma files are supported by stereo hardware, .mp3 players, voice recorders etc.


QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 27 2006, 04:56) *
It is true that afterwards the audio session will no longer show up in Windows Explorer but what did being able to see CDA 01, CDA 02, .... ever do for you?

Programs such as WinAmp and Foobar2000 use the Windows Explorer motif and thus only show the data files.


Hmmm. I think Windows Explorer sees the audio tracks in a Commercial CD Extra...?

I think there is more than one type of "enhanced " combo/audio & data CD format for store bought.

Anyway you are right I don't need to see the files in Windows Explorer, but it would be nice to play the disk with foobar or Winamp or Windows Media Player.

I think you are saying I will be very limited in playing the disk on my computer.


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AndyH-ha
post Jul 28 2006, 00:52
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An audio session followed by a data session is similar to a CD-Extra but isn't exactly the same. It isn't exactly defined anywhere I've ever seen. If Window's Explorer does display everything from a CD-Extra, it must be because the format is pre-defined to the OS and some specific identifier is written onto the CD-R.

Never having any desire to play CDs from the computer CD drive, that isn't a consideration for me. EAC will play these disk, however. Whether or not there are many other players that will is not something I ever investigated.

As I am not using Nero now, I don't know if there would be a difference from the following. I just tested writing the audio session with Burrrn and the data session with Easy CD Creator. No problem. As always, there is a brief delay while EZ announces 'the disk is not blank, do I really want to write this data on it?' but it continues once I click on OK. Using Burrrn and Nero, the Nero portion should be the same 'start multisession' as if the audio had also been written by Nero. Since Nero will tell you how much space remains on the disk, that aspect of using two different writting programs should not matter in the least.

Burrrn will also tell you how much space remains on the disk after writing the audio session.
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Martin H
post Jul 28 2006, 02:33
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 28 2006, 01:52) *
An audio session followed by a data session is similar to a CD-Extra but isn't exactly the same. It isn't exactly defined anywhere I've ever seen.

The CD-EXTRA format is specified in the Blue Book, and reffers to a disc containing first an audio session and then a data session smile.gif

@directjj

Here is a quote from the Feurio FAQ about CD-EXTRA :

QUOTE
NOTE:
The Windows Explorer only recognizes the 2. session of a CD-Extra CD, i. e. it only shows the data track but not the audio tracks - so don't be surprised if the Explorer only shows some data files but no audio tracks on a CD-Extra.

Source : http://www.feurio.com/English/faq/faq_vocable_cdextra.shtml

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AndyH-ha
post Jul 28 2006, 03:23
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Then presumedly there need be no special header information for Windows to recognize a CD-Extra disk. However, at least the way Nero makes them when one specifically selects that option, the CD-Extra contains a predefined directory structure that, I believe, cannot be removed. Most likely this is used by whatever hardware or software whose purpose in life is to deal with CD-Extra disks, i.e. display its artwork and whatever else it is supposed to contain. It main orientation is extra information about the music.
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greynol
post Jul 28 2006, 03:36
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 27 2006, 19:23) *
Then presumedly there need be no special header information for Windows to recognize a CD-Extra disk. However, at least the way Nero makes them when one specifically selects that option, the CD-Extra contains a predefined directory structure that, I believe, cannot be removed.

That's the way Nero makes them. The program that I suggested in a related thread will append a data session without requiring special folders.


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Martin H
post Jul 28 2006, 04:15
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 28 2006, 04:23) *
Then presumedly there need be no special header information for Windows to recognize a CD-Extra disk.

No, since Windows dosen't care about if it's a CD-EXTRA disc or not, and just shows the last session of the disc, just like it would have done if the disc inserted was a standard data multisession disc with two independent data sessions on it(if the ssessions where linked together, then all the data of the two sessions would be shown by Windows). Commercial CD-EXTRA discs can then just add an autorun.inf text file to the data session, so that whenever the disc is inserted into a cd-rom drive, then the multi-media content or the menu for it is started automatically smile.gif

This post has been edited by Martin H: Jul 28 2006, 04:20
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AndyH-ha
post Jul 28 2006, 06:53
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I also make many multi-session data-only CD-Rs. I make sure the sessions are not linked. The writing program therefore does no checking to see if anything previously written to the CD has been updated, deleted, whatever. This also means I can not write the same, or newer version, of anything in the current session that already exist in a previous session unless I give it a new name. I get exactly what I want this way.

The alternative is to link the new session with the old so the control information will only show the latest version of any files that exist both in the new session and prior sessions. I never want that to happen. A CD created this way shows everything in Windows Explorer unless it has been changed or deleted. Then Windows Explorer only displays the latest version.

My way, Windows Explorer displays everything on the CD-R, as though it had all been written at one go, no matter how many different sessions wrote the data.
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