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Help understand Burrrn ReplayGain WaveGain Option?
directjj
post Jul 21 2006, 01:35
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While I have some mp3's from other people, most of what I burrn is from a .cue file and an APE or FLAC image file, or possible individual song ape or flac files (presumably from the same source) with or without a .cue file.

Burrrn has an option for ReplayGain.

1) I understand one of the purposes is so you don't have to turn your stereo up or down from one CD to the next because of volume levels (although some CD's e.g. folk music probably should not be played as loud as say Rock'n Roll or blues).

2) I also understand that with the case of individual .mp3's files which might have come from a variety of people / equipment / settings even when all the songs of a complete album have been gathered together, that volume levels might differ a great deal from track to track on the same album. I.E. an even worse problem than #1.

Please help me understand the options in Burrrn or point me to a FAQ

First what is the difference between

ALBUM ADJUSTMENT and TRACK ADJUSTMENT.

Does ALBUM ADJUSTMENT strive to make every the AVERAGE VOLUME of every Album you burn with BURRRN about the same volume level.

I assume Track Adjustment tries to make the average volume level of every track in the compilation about the same. Sort of level things off. I assume if you check this and dont check album adjustment the overall volume of the album might differ from a different CD you burn but at least the tracks on THIS CD will all sound about the same.

In the case of APE or FLAC Images, or even individual APE or FLAC song files with associated cue from the same download, do you recommend any or all of these settings?

What doe the ADDITIONAL GAIN settings do?

What do the +6DB Harder Limit settings do?

What does Dither Do?

Under Dither what do the Dither
Without Noise Shaping
With Light Noise Shaping
With Heavy Noise Shaping do?


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prima1
post Dec 21 2006, 19:39
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i am bumping this because i have the same question and i searched all over the net
please help
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john33
post Dec 21 2006, 21:32
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QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 01:35) *
While I have some mp3's from other people, most of what I burrn is from a .cue file and an APE or FLAC image file, or possible individual song ape or flac files (presumably from the same source) with or without a .cue file.

Burrrn has an option for ReplayGain.

1) I understand one of the purposes is so you don't have to turn your stereo up or down from one CD to the next because of volume levels (although some CD's e.g. folk music probably should not be played as loud as say Rock'n Roll or blues).

2) I also understand that with the case of individual .mp3's files which might have come from a variety of people / equipment / settings even when all the songs of a complete album have been gathered together, that volume levels might differ a great deal from track to track on the same album. I.E. an even worse problem than #1.

Please help me understand the options in Burrrn or point me to a FAQ

First what is the difference between

ALBUM ADJUSTMENT and TRACK ADJUSTMENT.

ALBUM ADJUSTMENT applies the replaygain code on the basis of maintaining the same relative volume between tracks on an album whereas TRACK ADJUSTMENT will adjust the volume of tracks in isolation without reference to the volume levels of other tracks on the album.
QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 01:35) *
Does ALBUM ADJUSTMENT strive to make every the AVERAGE VOLUME of every Album you burn with BURRRN about the same volume level.

I assume Track Adjustment tries to make the average volume level of every track in the compilation about the same. Sort of level things off. I assume if you check this and dont check album adjustment the overall volume of the album might differ from a different CD you burn but at least the tracks on THIS CD will all sound about the same.

In the case of APE or FLAC Images, or even individual APE or FLAC song files with associated cue from the same download, do you recommend any or all of these settings?

What doe the ADDITIONAL GAIN settings do?

The standard level applied is 89dB. The additonal gain setting allows you to increase, or decrease, the base level by adding or subtracting dB to/from it.
QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 01:35) *
What do the +6DB Harder Limit settings do?

If you wish to increase the volume significantly, you run the risk of clipping, although that is normally catered for by limiting the increase applied, but the Hard Limiter allows for increasing the volume and compressing the dynamics so that the volume is increased without clipping. Unfortunately most albums produced in the last 10 - 15 years have already had most of the dynamics already compressed out of them. Seems like the art of mastering has been lost!! mad.gif
QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 01:35) *
What does Dither Do?

Dithering only really has any relevance if you are reducing the sample bitwidth, eg., from 24 to 16 bits. In that case dither helps to maintain the fidelity of the audio.
QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 01:35) *
Under Dither what do the Dither
Without Noise Shaping
With Light Noise Shaping
With Heavy Noise Shaping do?

Dithering involves adding 'noise' to the signal. Noise shaping is about adding the noise where it will have greatest benefit and least possible audibility of itself.


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Junon
post Dec 21 2006, 21:52
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In addition to john33's explanations, here are also a few links to the informations you're searching for:

-On the HA main site there's a link to http://replaygain.org/, where detailed explanations about Track/Album Adjustment can be found.

-Dithering: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither

-Noise Shaping: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Noise_shaping or the more detailed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_shaping

-Hard Limiter: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....t=667&st=22

If these links shouldn't suffice, please search on the HA Knowledgebase Project, on Wikipedia or directly using this forum's search function. I stumble across lots of useful hits by entering the keywords you asked for.
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Dynamic
post Dec 22 2006, 02:43
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QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 00:35) *
Does ALBUM ADJUSTMENT strive to make every the AVERAGE VOLUME of every Album you burn with BURRRN about the same volume level.

I assume Track Adjustment tries to make the average volume level of every track in the compilation about the same. Sort of level things off. I assume if you check this and dont check album adjustment the overall volume of the album might differ from a different CD you burn but at least the tracks on THIS CD will all sound about the same.


To clarify, Track Adjustment adjusts each track to an estimated loudness perceived as equal to 89 dB SPL, so quiet tracks within an album become relatively louder, loud ones relatively quieter.
Album Adjustment treats each album as if it were a single track so the relative loudness of quiet and loud tracks within the album remains the same, but the album still sounds as loud as 89 dB SPL overall.

So a home-made compilation album using Track Adjustment will still sound as loud as an original album using Album Adjustment. If I've ripped from full albums, I'll usually apply Album Gain even when I'm making a compilation playlist or shuffle/random playback because tracks that are intentionally quiet stay that way. If I've purchased single tracks, I'll simply use Track Gain for those and possibly adjust it if manually I feel it ought to be quieter.

QUOTE (directjj @ Jul 21 2006, 00:35) *
What does Dither Do?

Under Dither what do the Dither
Without Noise Shaping
With Light Noise Shaping
With Heavy Noise Shaping do?


Dither is relevant when you adjust the bit-depth, but by applying gain we're actually performing multiplication of 16-bit sample values by the scaling factor, which produces values with greater than 16-bit precision. If we simply round these values back to 16-bit before writing to CD (or worse truncate them) it's quite common for the rounding error to be correlated and generate new tonal distortion frequencies that weren't present in the music. To solve this, proper dither adds just enough very small random values to the unrounded values before they are rounded to ensure that the error introduced by round is spread over a wide range of frequencies. With CD audio, for flat dither (Without Noise Shaping), for each frequency the ear can perceive this noise is at around 120 dB less audible volume than a full-scale tone of that frequency. Without dither, tonal distortion frequencies which might be as much as around 96 dB below a full-scale tone (about 250 times more power per typical audible frequency bin than flat dither noise).

It's always good practice to dither because when truncation distortion becomes audible it's ugly. It probably makes no audible difference which type of dither you use. Good heavy noise shaped dither is typically 15 to 18 dB less audible than flat dither even though it contains more noise power, because the noise power is concentrated in the frequencies where it is far less audible (e.g. high frequencies). However, at normal or even really uncomfortably loud playback volume, it's very unlikely that you'll notice the difference between flat and noise-shaped dither noise because they'll both be practically inaudible. If you ever lower the pitch (and quite possibly the tempo) of a track (e.g. when DJing), it's quite possible you could bring Noise Shaped dither into a more audible region.


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prima1
post Dec 22 2006, 13:43
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thanks a million guys, you are the best
things are certainly clearer to me now

now if i wanna use the default 89dB value should i keep the additional gain box unchecked or checked with a value of 0.0?

also what is a good value to use in the hard limiter? should i just leave it at 6dB? (for an mp3 collection mostly modern pop/rock @192Kbps CBR)
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Martin H
post Dec 22 2006, 14:10
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I also have a question about WaveGain and so i hope it's allright that i post it in this thread instead of creating a new one, as it's also pretty related, since if the answer to my question is "Yes", then e.g. Hard Limiter which is discussed now, dosen't need to be used afterall...

@john33

In WaveGain v1.2.6, then i use "--album" "@source@" to get the Album_Scale value calculated according to the Album Gain dB recommended value and then lame.exe is called and the Album_Scale value is added to lame.exe's "--scale" switch(i'm using REACT).

My question then goes upon if WaveGain will automatically(by default) use clipping prevention and hence, reduce the recommended gain value if clipping would have occured otherwise ? I am thinking that this is true, since i can see from the command line switches, that there exists a no-clip switch, whom which i believe(if i understand it correctly) will disable clipping prevention ?

Thank's in advance.

CU, Martin.
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john33
post Dec 22 2006, 14:37
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Dec 22 2006, 14:10) *
I also have a question about WaveGain and so i hope it's allright that i post it in this thread instead of creating a new one, as it's also pretty related, since if the answer to my question is "Yes", then e.g. Hard Limiter which is discussed now, dosen't need to be used afterall...

@john33

In WaveGain v1.2.6, then i use "--album" "@source@" to get the Album_Scale value calculated according to the Album Gain dB recommended value and then lame.exe is called and the Album_Scale value is added to lame.exe's "--scale" switch(i'm using REACT).

My question then goes upon if WaveGain will automatically(by default) use clipping prevention and hence, reduce the recommended gain value if clipping would have occured otherwise ? I am thinking that this is true, since i can see from the command line switches, that there exists a no-clip switch, whom which i believe(if i understand it correctly) will disable clipping prevention ?

Thank's in advance.

CU, Martin.

Yes, clipping prevention is used automatically unless disabled as you describe. The effect is that any specified gain is limited to the maximum no clip value so, in some cases, the result could be a little quieter than expected. Use of the Hard Limiter allows the gain to be applied as specified by compressing the dynamics to avoid clipping.


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Martin H
post Dec 22 2006, 15:21
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Thank you very much john33 for answering my question smile.gif This was actually also the way i had hoped it would work as i have ripped many discs with just using the "--album" switch and nothing else smile.gif Again, many thanks john33 and i wish you a merry christmas smile.gif

CU, Martin.
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