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[TOS #8] mp3-ogg (RMAA test)
Natural
post Nov 25 2002, 15:45
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sorry, I'm poor english

Source WAV file is test.wav of RMAA 4.2...

mp3 -> lameDropXP 3.93 (--alt insane)
ogg -> oggDropXP (q=10)

Results

ogg is +0.5db gain in 20hz...

mp3 is very nearing source file..
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Frank Bicking
post Nov 25 2002, 15:49
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Seems to be useless, because these graphs don't tell you anything about the quality. I doubt you can hear any difference. And please remember that Ogg Vorbis wasn't optimized that much at high bitrates yet.

This post has been edited by Frank_Bicking: Nov 25 2002, 16:02
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kjoonlee
post Nov 25 2002, 16:12
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Natural: graphs aren't taken very seriously here. Using graphs to judge quality is considered very dangerous and erroneous.

if you want my take, see here (in Korean).

I'm Gum-Eun-Hae.

This post has been edited by kjoonlee: Nov 25 2002, 16:13
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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Nov 25 2002, 16:13
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yeah, and there is a reason for that. graphs show how music looks but our ear judge what they hear, not what the (can't) see!
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Natural
post Nov 25 2002, 16:18
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No..
mp3 is encord near source...
I heard ogg is gain Bass sometimes..
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kjoonlee
post Nov 25 2002, 16:28
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QUOTE (Natural @ Nov 26 2002 - 12:18 AM)
No..
mp3 is encord near source...
I heard ogg is gain Bass sometimes..

Ah, but can you hear it yourself?

Well, the rules here are to provide short samples. Then people can try encoding it themselves.


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Natural
post Nov 25 2002, 16:38
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Graph is very important.

files

This post has been edited by Natural: Nov 25 2002, 16:42
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kjoonlee
post Nov 25 2002, 16:39
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QUOTE (Natural @ Nov 26 2002 - 12:38 AM)
Graph is very important.

no, ears are more important.

sori-neun gwi-ro deud-neun geo-ji, noon-eu-ro bo-shi-neun geo-ga anibnida.


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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Nov 25 2002, 16:49
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how about:
don't feed the troll ?
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Frank Bicking
post Nov 25 2002, 16:53
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If you're not able to offer any evidence that you can hear the differences, well... please ****

okay, won't feed it wink.gif

This post has been edited by Frank_Bicking: Nov 25 2002, 16:56
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kjoonlee
post Nov 25 2002, 16:55
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QUOTE (Benjamin Lebsanft @ Nov 26 2002 - 12:49 AM)
how about:
don't feed the troll ?

Benjamin: I'm not sure if he (Natural) recognizes me, but I recognize him. From what I gather he's not a troll, he's not malevolent or twisted, in fact he intends to do good, if I'm not mistaken.

Natural: How about a real sample of music, not noise? That will help a lot more.

This post has been edited by kjoonlee: Nov 25 2002, 16:56


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Sachankara
post Nov 25 2002, 16:58
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Haha... *lol* Funny thread...

(I agree with Garf... smile.gif Graphs shows nothing about the quality in psychoacustial compressed formats, except perhaps frequency cutoffs... But that's it... It has been told thousands of times already... tongue.gif)
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MadiZone
post Nov 25 2002, 17:16
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ROFLMAO @ Garf laugh.gif
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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Nov 25 2002, 18:14
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but why is he still claiming what garf called bullshit if he was proven wrong ?
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mvdb
post Nov 25 2002, 18:38
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QUOTE (Natural @ Nov 25 2002 - 03:38 PM)
Graph is very important.

hmmm maybe you should compress your beautiful graphs with JPG or PNG. These formats give excellent quality and take far less space than MP3s or Ogg Vorbis files tongue.gif Have phun watching your music wink.gif
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guruboolez
post Nov 25 2002, 19:15
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QUOTE (Natural @ Nov 25 2002 - 04:38 PM)
Graph is very important.

OK, and now, assume it :


LAME --alt-preset extreme :

http://membres.lycos.fr/guruboolez/AUDIO/t..._02/mp3-wav.gif

Ogg Vorbis 1.0 -q7

http://membres.lycos.fr/guruboolez/AUDIO/t...02/ogg7-wav.gif


Mp3 is very nice on pre-echo. Very high resolution, isn't it ? tongue.gif
[don't flame me too ; theses graphs were made in order to illustrate (and only illustrate) a very tiring listening test]
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sven_Bent
post Nov 25 2002, 19:49
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a total worthless test

I dont take a pivtures and conveter it to raw pcm and an then make a playback test to hear wich lossy pictures formas is better then the order by my ears.
Why should i do the opposite.


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Guest_ManyFaces_*
post Nov 25 2002, 20:25
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...and you all are forgotting something:

...if you convert from mp3 to jpg...
*or*
...you convert from ogg to jpg...

...you are using two different lossy format, and thus *transcoding*...

...and transcoding is *death* ph34r.gif

...you can't expect not to loose quality while transcoding laugh.gif

...or is it? blink.gif lmao!

[Edit]: Sorry, I couldn't resist

This post has been edited by ManyFaces: Dec 7 2002, 19:02
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MadiZone
post Nov 25 2002, 21:49
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GIF is like the ADPCM of digital images.
GIF is lossless, but only supports up to 256 colors. And since most screenshots of nice graphs are in 16-bit, 24-bit or 32-bit color, there is a loss in color precision.
But no phony artifacts.

I noticed how the graphics of the music were animated... is this what we call a musicvideo?

This post has been edited by MadiZone: Nov 25 2002, 21:50
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Dibrom
post Nov 25 2002, 22:05
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huh.gif Wow.. I've never seen such colorful posts before... blink.gif

biggrin.gif
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Guest_SK1_*
post Nov 25 2002, 22:51
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"...or is it? blink.gif lmao!"
LMAO too biggrin.gif...
And liked the post by Garf, righton..
ooh look at all the pretty colors!
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KikeG
post Nov 26 2002, 09:30
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That graphs are interesting, but in practice mostly useless. Note that those kind of tests are designed to stress 'dumb' linear devices, not psychoacoustic encoders. For one side, in real world, those codecs in some cases will perform worse with real music than with these tests signals, and in other cases better, so the information you can extract from the tests is not useful. Also, in case of these type of encoders, this results are not indicative of how well will the codecs sound in practice with real music, because they 'adapt' intelligently to the music and human hearing. For this particular settings, I'd say they will sound very good in most cases, independently from the results you get from RMAA.

Even if the codecs were 'dumb' devices and the results were indicative of the quality, the differences between both encoders in the test are negligible and very likely would not be audible in practice.
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David Nordin
post Nov 26 2002, 11:44
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Graphs and spectrograms can be very useful, ofcourse, but also given: In the right context.
As Garf pointed out: Spectrograms are NOT useful with Psychoacoustic codec.
There's nothing to prove, nothing to discuss.
If you believe otherwize you need education.

(btw. excellent clarification Garf biggrin.gif )

This post has been edited by MTRH: Nov 26 2002, 11:45


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Natural
post Nov 26 2002, 15:51
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I'm testing Fhg-lame...
It's interesting...

Fhg -> encoder by Cool edit Pro 2.0 320kbps CBR
lame -> lameDropXP 3.93a 320 CBR(insane)

decoder -> lamedropXP

fhg is high distortion....

I'm poor english..

files
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Kblood
post Nov 26 2002, 15:58
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Natural, please stop using graphs for comparing psychoacoustical encoders.

You have been told they are not useful.

You have been told it even in Korean.

And also, I just noticed it: C-Media? Not exactly the best soundcard, is it?

Your tests are simply wrong.

Use your ears, not your eyes, to judge quality of sound.
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