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Protected CD and ripping, What should I do?
giopiar
post May 18 2006, 08:29
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I've bought a lot of CDs this year and almost all of them have the same problem: I can't rip them to mp3 or aac to listen the music I bought on my iPod.

I think that's not a stupid problem because I think I have the right to listen to CDs I bought on my portable player! I've a Plextor PX-716A burner, I tried to rip them even with PlexTools without luck: every song is filled with pops and cracks...

What do you think about it? How do you solve this problem (because I think all of you have come into a CDS CD)? Should I buy the albums on iTunes even if their 128Kbps AAC is NOT transparent to my ears? Or should I sell my iPod and buy a portable CD player crying.gif ?
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edekba
post May 18 2006, 09:15
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i have the same problem but usually my powerbook g4 can read the cds fine.
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user
post May 18 2006, 11:34
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EAC & Plextor drives should do any CD. EAC 0.9b4 is my recommendation.
Please, return these Un-CDs to your dealer, as they aren't playing in your car CD-radio...

This post has been edited by user: May 18 2006, 11:36


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snek_one
post May 18 2006, 13:21
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You might want to try out [program to copy protected dvds/cds] which should also support "DVD Region+CSS Free decrypts not just DVD's, it now allows you also to play, copy and rip protected Audio CD's!".. It runs in the background and you won't even notice it. You can download a 30 day trial version [link].

I haven't really had any seriously protect CD's yet however, I'm more into vinyl these days. So I can't say from personal experience if it works, but I do know it works on DVD's for sure wink.gif

Moderation: removed name of illegal program and link.

This post has been edited by Jan S.: May 30 2006, 19:48


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Busemann
post May 18 2006, 14:07
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QUOTE (edekba @ May 18 2006, 00:15) *
i have the same problem but usually my powerbook g4 can read the cds fine.


Same here. The optical drive is what determines it, so using EAC or anything else will do no good. Could it be that these drives interpolate C2 errors just like standard CD players?
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robinpb
post May 18 2006, 14:23
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i've had success by ripping the "protected cd" to an image file (ie, nrg, ccd, etc), then mounting said image file via daemontools, and ripping through EAC.
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Raiden
post May 18 2006, 15:56
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I've got a 716A, too. And it does have problems with some copy-protected CDs (but not all!). I already RMA'ed it, but it wasn't better.
When i decided to buy a 716A (the RMA'ed one is rev #002) i thought it would deliver top quality with copy protected audio CDs... so i was very disappointed. You can't say 'All Plextors are great for ripping'. From other people i heard the 716A was indeed very inconsistend at ripping.

Then, some weeks ago, i bought a new Plextor PX-W4012A on ebay for 15$ shipped, and it's ripping quality is in every aspect superior to my 716A.

QUOTE (robinpb @ May 18 2006, 15:23) *
i've had success by ripping the "protected cd" to an image file (ie, nrg, ccd, etc), then mounting said image file via daemontools, and ripping through EAC.

I doubt that made a difference. Try ripping the CD to two images, and then compare them with some checksum tool. I'm sure it will report different results. If EAC can't read the CD properly, then (from my experience) it won't work with cloning tools either.

QUOTE (snek_one @ May 18 2006, 14:21) *
You might want to try out [program to copy protected dvds/cds] which should also support "DVD Region+CSS Free decrypts not just DVD's, it now allows you also to play, copy and rip protected Audio CD's!".. It runs in the background and you won't even notice it. You can download a 30 day trial version [link].

I haven't really had any seriously protect CD's yet however, I'm more into vinyl these days. So I can't say from personal experience if it works, but I do know it works on DVD's for sure wink.gif

Moderation: removed name of illegal program and link.

This method can't remove the physical errors on the disc. The drive still needs to correct the errors.

Moderation: removed name of illegal program and link in the quote

This post has been edited by Jan S.: May 30 2006, 19:52
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jmartis
post May 18 2006, 16:05
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If you can play the CDs fine in Winamp, you can use its DiskWriter plugin to save the WAVs to your hard drive. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
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windowshade
post May 18 2006, 17:13
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I've never had that problem with the PX-716A (002), but I buy very few copy-protected discs. YMMV. Just to clarify: what DAE Error Recovery setting do you use with PlexTools? Do you use the Enable Single Session option?

(I know these are basic questions and you've clearly spent some time troubleshooting this. However, these points should be recorded for future readers of this thread.) [/disclaimer]
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AtaqueEG
post May 18 2006, 18:15
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I thought that we were not supposed to discuss this sort of subjects on HA.


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Busemann
post May 18 2006, 18:29
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ May 18 2006, 09:15) *
I thought that we were not supposed to discuss this sort of subjects on HA.


Are you serious?
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Cosmo
post May 18 2006, 18:37
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ May 18 2006, 13:15) *
I thought that we were not supposed to discuss this sort of subjects on HA.

The abundance of discussions about this subject suggests otherwise.
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giopiar
post May 18 2006, 18:48
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SOLVED! I've been able to create a copy without any udible noise laugh.gif with some of my CD (unfortunately not all, but it is already something...)!

I've spent the day trying all the settings of EAC but without luck, then I've installed the new version of AnyDVD and the rip was ok

Really don't know how it is possible huh.gif ... I know that CDS200 puts in the track a lot of C2 errors, maybe AnyDVD is able to "hide" them to the recorder.

If you want I can post the most problematic part of the song with and without AnyDVD...

QUOTE
I thought that we were not supposed to discuss this sort of subjects on HA.


...Ive bought all these CDs and spent a lot of money... I think it is my right listening to them in my iPod and car player! Try to have a look at p2p softwares... For X&Y by coldplay there is a Japanese version without protection encoded with lame at --alt preset extreme. IMO it does mean that CD protections creates problems only to the onest buyers...

Thank you!

This post has been edited by giopiar: May 18 2006, 19:19
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Triza
post May 18 2006, 22:26
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PX-716A has a practically no interpolation. I does fixes whatever it can, but it has nonexistant interpolation in case the former fails. I did the DAE tests hence the knowledge. I wish I knew that beforehand. Forums a full of bullsh*t about the greatness of Plextor.

This post has been edited by Triza: May 18 2006, 22:27
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giopiar
post May 19 2006, 14:36
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Reading al your answers, and some other threads about the same issue, I've found that there is a lot of confusion about protected CD ripping. Here's my conclusions, based on the tests I've done in these 2 days.

Maybe it would be useful to have a feedback, correct them and then put them on te FAQ section... rolleyes.gif

So, here's my conclusions

1. There are not so many protections schemes for audio CDs. The most difficult one to rip is CacusDataShield 200, present in a lot of newly released CDs. CDS200 is a combination of altered TOC and uncorrectable C2 errors. Most of the stand-alone CD players are able to "ignore" these errors, but CD/DVD-ROM drivers detect these as errors (in fact these ARE errors tongue.gif ). The result is that the resulting rip will be full of cracks and pops.

2. That's NOT true that all plextor drivers are good at ripping protected CDs. In the test I've done, PX-716A with the latest firmware performed really badly compared to Yamaha CRW-F1. Maybe some different harware revisions produce different results.

3. CDS200 is an hardware based protection. It does mean that you can use Plextools, EAC or CDex but it will produce similar results.

4. The best way to rip is any ripper in burst mode at lowest speed. My tests showed that using C2 correction or another errror-correction mode produces worst results. IMO this is because these errors are incorrectable, so even if the drives tries to read it a lot of time it will never be able to read it correctly. I con't know the technical reason for that, but it seems that burst mode lets the drive "ignore" these errors.

5. It seems that some softwares as AnyDVD or DVDRegionFree+CSS make it easier for a CD/DVD driver to "ignore" these errors. (...but I really don't know how... Maybe it interpolates C2 errors, who knows huh.gif ?!)

I'm waiting for your feedback! Bye

This post has been edited by giopiar: May 19 2006, 16:56
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Busemann
post May 19 2006, 14:41
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QUOTE
Most of the stand-alone CD players are able to "ignore" these errors, but CD/DVD-ROM drivers detect these as errors (in fact these ARE errors ). The result is that the resulting rip will be full of cracks and pops.


Also worth mentioning is that there's of course no pops or clicks when just playing the discs. It only happens when ripping.

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Wombat
post May 19 2006, 15:50
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I have an old Compaq CR-589 CD-Rom that doesn´t know what CDS200 is. It slows down to 1x speed and does a click-free EAC job smile.gif
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giopiar
post May 19 2006, 16:55
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QUOTE
Also worth mentioning is that there's of course no pops or clicks when just playing the discs. It only happens when ripping


That's true only when you play it in analog mode (using CD-ROM's SPIDF or analog out), but in digitale mode (...which actually is ripping) the problem is still there

QUOTE
If you can play the CDs fine in Winamp, you can use its DiskWriter plugin to save the WAVs to your hard drive. (please correct me if I'm wrong)


That's right, but it's the same thing as above. As you know reading an audio CD in digital mode is ripping, so that winamp can't play these CDs correctly. If you set it up to read the CD in analog mode (it means that CD-ROM driver performs "like a stand alone player") it might work, but this is another thing: you can always play it and record, even in Windows Soundrec: that's not ripping...

QUOTE
I have an old Compaq CR-589 CD-Rom that doesn´t know what CDS200 is. It slows down to 1x speed and does a click-free EAC job


Lucky you! tongue.gif

QUOTE
what DAE Error Recovery setting do you use with PlexTools?


Tried all of them: with CDS200 more error correction ---> more problems
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windowshade
post May 19 2006, 17:32
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QUOTE (giopiar @ May 18 2006, 11:48) *
If you want I can post the most problematic part of the song with and without AnyDVD...
Could you post the names of a couple of the most troublesome discs?
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giopiar
post May 19 2006, 17:41
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QUOTE
Could you post the names of a couple of the most troublesome discs?


"X&Y" by "Coldplay" ---> it doesn't even play in my car, tried 3 different CDs, all with the same problem. With AnyDVD and Plextor still cracks and pops, with Yamaha quite good (I've found an alternative solution for it... but I've been already warned...)

"9" by "Eros Ramazzotti" ---> Good ripping with Anydvd and both Plextor/Yamaha, some troubles with Yamaha without AnyDVD, bad with Plextor without AnyDVD

With both these CDs using error correction was a disaster... They both use CDS200

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AtaqueEG
post May 19 2006, 17:49
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This is from Terms Of Service

QUOTE
9. All members must refrain from posting links to -- or information regarding how to obtain -- copyrighted or illegal material. Discussion containing information of how to obtain such material, how to bypass protection methodologies of such material, or how to otherwise violate laws pertaining to such matters will not be tolerated, and participating members may be subject to administrative action.


Maybe somebody could clarify.

This post has been edited by AtaqueEG: May 19 2006, 17:50


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giopiar
post May 19 2006, 19:13
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ May 19 2006, 08:49) *
Maybe somebody could clarify.


...So this is TOS #9 violation too, isn't it?

A part from this, if an administrator think this is a violation wa can close the thread...

I must admit that if I won't be able to copy my CDs next time I'll save €20 and illegally download them, since iTunes Music Store quality is NOT transparent at all to my ears, but lame --alt-preset-extreme is...

...Actually some of my CDs are coasters more than Audio CDs...

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OmniCbex
post May 19 2006, 20:21
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Hello everyone...

Most CD copy protection schemes are based on software so you could...
1) Turn off autorun / autoplay
2) Hold the 'shift' key while inserting the disk, or
3) Put the disk in while the computer boots.
If you have let the disk autoplay, there is probably a bogus device driver or, even worse, Sony's rootkit malware on your system. Research the copy protection to find out how to delete that trash.

Other copy protections are based on the TOC and C2 / ECC sectors of the disc. These are a bit more annoying. Research the exact copy protection. If nothing works, return the disk for a refund- remember, they deliberately put errors on the disk and you don't have to take that.

The copy-protected disk I got was the recent Foo Fighters release and all I wanted to do was back the disc up on my hard drive to use my computer to play it and not scratch the disc. Personal back-ups of a CD IS NOT PIRACY! Puting music on a MP3 player IS NOT PIRACY! These copy protections violate your fair-use rights and thus need to be taken out of existance.

I have started a thread myself on the subject here, "New DRM Schemes Threaten Ability To Back Up Audio", and was not warned by the mods about #9. They've even posted links to CD Freaks (see above post). My guess is that they feel the same on this subject. It's different from taking about how to get around I-Tunes Fair-Play or the like because Fair-Play lets you listen, transfer, and burn to CD. These copy protections let you listen and that's it. What's more is that you are warned that I-Tunes tracks are copy-protected prior to purchase, but CD copy protections have little or no warning. Sony's rootkit had no warning and nobody knew until things screwed up. The most you are warned on a CD is the absence of the 'Disc' logo or fine print that says that it might not work on all CD players. Look over the CD case for those clues before you buy, and if you get one, take it back and send the record execs the message that we don't want that crap on our CDs.

This post has been edited by OmniCbex: May 19 2006, 20:25


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kritip
post May 19 2006, 23:59
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Also if you need a good copy, can you not connect the digital out of a standalone player to the pc soundcard? That way you get the correction of the soundcard.

Figure out the start and end of the recording. Copy the cue from the disc on the PC, and then split the tracks that way? I don't have a seperaate cd player and so can't check, may be wortha shot though, if all else fails.

Kristian
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giopiar
post May 20 2006, 08:18
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QUOTE (kritip @ May 19 2006, 14:59) *
Also if you need a good copy, can you not connect the digital out of a standalone player to the pc soundcard? That way you get the correction of the soundcard.


Yes, that's a good solution, but I preferred real ripping. To be correct, you don't get the correction of the soundcard but the correction of the standalone player

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