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Nero 7.2 Released, Nero Releases Huge Update of its Flagship Product
guruboolez
post Apr 26 2006, 11:55
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QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 26 2006, 10:25 AM) *
I don't get what you are complaining about. We continously improve the software, and each new release has new features. Each time we release something, the very latest development version is already" better" and we try to get that into the *next* release. If you don't ever want to be surprised by a new version that is better than the one you just encoded your entire collection with, then for the love of god, use some dead format, and not Nero AAC, because we're actually improving it!

The fact that each major release of Nero contains an uncomplete encoder and/or buggy GUI is maybe a reason to complain, especially when you have to download a bloated installer, uninstall programs you don't need (Scout) and delete by hand 500 MB of temporary datas in an hidden folder (documents & settings\...\local setting\temp\NeroDemo9918).
If you take a look on similar products offering AAC (or something else), there are no problem like these: Winamp, iTunes, WMP are all fine in that aspect... If you set "x kbps" it gives you "~x kbps" and not "1/2 x kbps" and it doesn't enable a debugging -moreover buggy- mode. Nero GUI is inaccurate for more than two years. And now it has been redesigned, it's still not working and really looks unfinished (no choice for MP4/M4A, no choice for using LC if you want LC, etc... I bet it will change in a near future).

The funniest is that you're apparently aware about these bugs, but strictly don't bother to inform us. I count 6 messages from you and Ivan in the first page of this announcement: we can learn that a surprise is planned, that BluRay is supported and online update too, but there's not one mention about "known issues" reported by users. Are you considering us as "beta tester"? I think it wasn't the case, contrary to less respectful companies...

I could understand that you don't master the planning of release and that you're sometimes forced to release something which is not polished enough. But if you're aware about problems, there's something you can and should really do: it's to inform people about it. You're talking about "new features" new Nero always has: but current one has clearly less future and doesn't really look safe to use.
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Matyas
post Apr 26 2006, 12:12
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The above post should have had an address line, and with guruboolez's latter(?) acknowledgement, i would add it:

TO: NERO Project Managers

The point is that it is not these guys/developers you talk to on these forums are the ones responsible for what you are complaining about. They do their work of development and they do it well AFAIK.

However, the project managers that are responsible for the build-test-release cycle are the ones to be busted here. Their visors are focused on 3 things:
  • money
  • money, and
  • money

Therefore the more they can release (with even more eye candy than before), the more they can sell. It is just because 99.0% of the population having ANY type of relation with the computers are attracted by eye-candies. They will end up selling ONLY eye-candy without functionality and that will be the point when a general meeting will be called, some managers fired, the company rebranded, the software "rewritten from scratch" and some quality issues discussed.

HOWG, I have spoken.
Matyas
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Apr 26 2006, 12:22
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QUOTE
TO: NERO Project Managers

The point is that it is not these guys/developers you talk to on these forums are the ones responsible for what you are complaining about. They do their work of development and they do it well AFAIK.


Me being the overall project and product manager for Nero Digital Audio and Mobile efforts in Nero I can speak at least for the projects involved here smile.gif

Please be assured that opinions on HA and the issues found here are of the very big importance for the Nero Digital Audio - and, like I said, this week there will be some major changes in how do we handle Nero Digital Audio towards the communities.

I will post some more info soon.
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rufu
post Apr 26 2006, 12:25
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I feel this thread is beginning to be hijacked as a bitching session about peoples various issues regarding Nero. And while I have my own personal annoyances with Nero, and agree with what people have said about the size of the downloads every month, Nero Scout, etc. I don't feel its productive getting upset with the Nero team who frequent the forums, as we have no idea what input they have outside of the Nero digital encoder. I would hope that they would pass some comments to those at Ahead who do have influence, but overall I think we should be thankful for the level of input and feedback we get from the Nero Digital team.
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Garf
post Apr 26 2006, 12:45
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 26 2006, 12:55 PM) *
The fact that each major release of Nero contains an uncomplete encoder


Well, I hope that the encoder is never complete, because that would mean there is nothing to improve any more.

QUOTE
The funniest is that you're apparently aware about these bugs, but strictly don't bother to inform us.


I don't consider these bugs significant since they only affect stereo AAC encoding at > +-240kbps VBR, and I think that such modes are not very useful (I know that people have been asking for them regardless). The choice was and always is between shipping a new encoder with these issues or not shipping a new encoder at all, and I think everybody is better served by having the new one.

If you are asking me to list all known bugs and deficiencies in the current encoder: no. One notable thing that has been problematic is 5.1 channel VBR, but see below.

QUOTE
I count 6 messages from you and Ivan in the first page of this announcement: we can learn that a surprise is planned, that BluRay is supported and online update too, but there's not one mention about "known issues" reported by users. Are you considering us as "beta tester"? I think it wasn't the case, contrary to less respectful companies...


You aren't a "beta tester" for the two bugs that have been mentioned here: I already knew about them. You will find bugs in any software and there are certainly a few left in Nero. Does that make you a "beta tester"? As for my remark linked, I don't think it would have been acceptable to stop the release or remove the new encoder for a bug in a mode that shouldn't really be used.

Note that Recode still uses the old encoder, because of the above issue, but also because the Recode team had to choose between integrating the new one or fixing more bugs. They fixed more bugs.
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guruboolez
post Apr 26 2006, 13:08
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QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 26 2006, 12:45 PM) *
I don't consider these bugs significant since they only affect stereo AAC encoding at > +-240kbps VBR, and I think that such modes are not very useful

ohmy.gif
This is not a really professional answer in my opinion. If Nero offers high bitrate encoding mode, users (which have normally paid for this product) should get a working piece of software and not such answer. If high-bitrate encodings are not useful and if bugs affecting that mode are considered as not significant enough, it would be wise to remove them from the available choice; then people won't risk to get corrupted encodings.

QUOTE
The choice was and always is between shipping a new encoder with these issues or not shipping a new encoder at all, and I think everybody is better served by having the new one.

It's the same story at each "major" release. I hope you'll understand that people could be seriously bored by this explanation.

QUOTE
If you are asking me to list all known bugs and deficiencies in the current encoder: no.

Even nicer... Thank you. So whay HA.org users have to expect from you is more and less announcement of "surprises" but definitely no transparency about the current state of the encoder?

QUOTE
You aren't a "beta tester" for the two bugs that have been mentioned here: I already knew about them. You will find bugs in any software and there are certainly a few left in Nero. Does that make you a "beta tester"?

I'm sorry: I'm not considering myself as a beta tester. But I'm very disappointed by your attitude. It only takes one hour to find few bugs (call them "unsignificant" if you want...) and now it appears that I've only wasted my time to find out issues you're perfectly aware but you didn't bother to mention to your public.

QUOTE
As for my remark linked, I don't think it would have been acceptable to stop the release or remove the new encoder for a bug in a mode that shouldn't really be used.

Nobody requested it. But warning users about issues they could perfectly be subject to would be very easy... and kind. The forum looks like a suitable place for this kind of warning.

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Apr 26 2006, 13:08
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Enig123
post Apr 26 2006, 13:18
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 26 2006, 02:16 PM) *
I nevertheless noticed irritating smearing with different samples. If people are interested to check if I'm not dreaming:

- Nero Digital
- iTunes

There are also audible problems with micro-impulse like signal, but considering the bitrate, it's more or less the case for all encoders/formats.


I think Ivan may already had ideas in mind to fight with these two kind of artefacts because he have a theory of how these originated.

Next major release? cool.gif
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Apr 26 2006, 13:26
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No, starting from now - Nero AAC will be updated in much more frequent manner - and this week you will see how wink.gif
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kwanbis
post Apr 26 2006, 13:39
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QUOTE (Gambit @ Apr 25 2006, 05:33 PM) *
Oh come on. I'll be the first one to admit that it's bloated. But.. The installer is 100MB. In the age of broadband, that is nothing. And you can install only the parts that you want. So it's like bitching that you get stuff for free. That's like... well, dumb. What you should bitch about, are the shitloads of unfixed bugs. Though I have to admit I haven't tried this new version. But I'm sure there are still some left. wink.gif

While i love Neros Burning Rom, and Nero's Recode, i don't see why do i have to download a whole 100MB installer, that uncompresses to 500MB at my temp folder. If you can select what parts to install, is obvious nero knows what to include on the installer, and what not. Why not offer a "complete installer", and a splitted one? One of the reasons Nero started to get more customers, apart from the burning quality, was that it was non-bloated. They are forgeting this.

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Apr 26 2006, 09:20 AM) *
Just bear in mind that many companies out there do not even communicate with the customers and communities this way - leave alone listen to the requests and work on wished features and bugfixes with communities.

thats true, but the criticism here comes because we respect nero, and whant it to succeed. And because we don't want the marketing department to ruin it wink.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Apr 26 2006, 09:20 AM) *
So, I apologise for some borderline settings that might not work correctly in the current release, but we are really doing all we can to make sure everything is top-notch quality, which I believe it already is smile.gif

no need to apologise.

QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Apr 26 2006, 09:20 AM) *
And, yes, bugs reported are fixed already - and fixes will be there, too.

allways good to see the devs are the ones in the know smile.gif

I still remember how i liked Easy CD Creator, when it was still part of corel, or something, and it was 3.5mb. Then some companies bought it, and at the end, it was a 500mb beast nobody here cares about any more. Don't let that happen to Nero. Split the installer. Let people choice ™.

This post has been edited by kwanbis: Apr 26 2006, 13:41


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Ivan Dimkovic
post Apr 26 2006, 13:46
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I would kindly ask people to, at least for the moment, stop complaining about Nero7 size if they only want AAC - like I said, we are working on the solution and this solution will be out this week (or, in the worst of the worst case - next one), not next month or next year - I think 2 more days is not so much, isn't it?

Purpose of my post here on HA is the new AAC stuff we put into N7.2 - it is pretty new and, yes, it is quite powerful as it was shown on the last 48 kbps listening test. Also, the bug found in the 128 kbps test is of course fixed.

For testing VBR and 2-pass modes, please wait 2 more days - I am quite sure this waiting will pay off smile.gif
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William
post Apr 26 2006, 13:51
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QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Apr 26 2006, 12:26 PM) *
No, starting from now - Nero AAC will be updated in much more frequent manner - and this week you will see how wink.gif


I wonder why no one tried to make some wild guess, given the hints provided by Ivan?

Does the AAC encoder go open source, or become a separate free download that anyone can use for free?

This post has been edited by William: Apr 26 2006, 13:52
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Apr 26 2006, 13:53
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QUOTE
Does the AAC encoder go open source, or become a separate free download that anyone can use for free?


Now you're asking me to reveal all my secrets. What will be the surprise then? smile.gif
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ShowsOn
post Apr 26 2006, 13:57
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QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Apr 26 2006, 09:26 PM) *
No, starting from now - Nero AAC will be updated in much more frequent manner - and this week you will see how wink.gif

Let me guess, Nero AAC is going open source, or partially open source?


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Matyas
post Apr 26 2006, 13:57
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I guess we should stop the bi**ing around and wait 'till the new annoucement by Ivan.

... and then we can continue with it wink.gif
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yulyo!
post Apr 26 2006, 14:04
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It would be great if Nero's AAC encoder will be a separate free download.
Then i will install only Nero Burning Rom & the encoder on my PC. wink.gif
....and Nero Scout, of course mad.gif

This post has been edited by yulyo!: Apr 26 2006, 14:04
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William
post Apr 26 2006, 14:07
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QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Apr 26 2006, 12:53 PM) *
Now you're asking me to reveal all my secrets. What will be the surprise then? smile.gif


Oh, then I'd better keep waiting. smile.gif

Keep up the good work. Your work, and Garfs', are appreciated. guruboolez too, your work in testing the new Nero is remarkable and admirable.

It is understandable that it is difficult to be perfect, programming included, and it is usually the case that imperfections are found after the product is delivered. All developers can do is improve on it.

So, please, everyone, please stop the blaming and criticism. Please remember that everyone here wants to help and benefit the whole community, and everyone gains from it.

And I thank you for that.

This post has been edited by William: Apr 26 2006, 14:08
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guruboolez
post Apr 26 2006, 14:15
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There's another issue occuring with gapless feature this time. It's not completely OK and have troubles in some cases.
My gapless suite revealed additionnal noise ("pop") between transitions 03-04; 08-09; 09-10 & 16-17. All other transitions are played gaplessly by foobar2000.

Screenshots (09-10):

Merged reference samples
Merged encoded samples

It was encoded with default setting (i.e. 142 kbps).

Do you know what the problem is? Lame has also issues with these samples (gapless issues I also noticed on real track separation).


EDIT: also tried with the highest working bitrate (438 kbps) and the problem is also here.

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Apr 26 2006, 14:22
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jarsonic
post Apr 26 2006, 14:21
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I feel like it's somewhat obvious what's going to be released in a couple of days, given everything that has been said by the developers in this thread. wink.gif
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Apr 26 2006, 14:38
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@guruboolez,

I forwarded a link to this problem to our engineers responsible for gapless and they will check this out asap.
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kurtnoise
post Apr 26 2006, 15:29
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 26 2006, 08:16 AM) *
I can't use it anymore with foobar2000 0.9.1.

Works fine here with the NeroAACWrapper...smile.gif


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Gabriel
post Apr 26 2006, 15:32
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 26 2006, 03:15 PM) *
Do you know what the problem is? Lame has also issues with these samples (gapless issues I also noticed on real track separation).

I think that this is not related to the meta-information (storing delay/padding values), but due to the quantization of separate tracks.
On track boundaries, the boundary is affected by quantization. This is not a problem in isolation, but when you join two encoded/decoded tracks, the boundaries do not match anymore, even if the sample positions are right.
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Apr 26 2006, 15:37
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If that is the problem (different quantization on track boundaries), we also have a solution for these kind of encodes in Nero Digital Audio, and also the package we will release by the end of this week will also solve these in a very nice way, too.
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Sebastian Mares
post Apr 26 2006, 15:51
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QUOTE (kurtnoise @ Apr 26 2006, 04:29 PM) *
QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 26 2006, 08:16 AM) *
I can't use it anymore with foobar2000 0.9.1.

Works fine here with the NeroAACWrapper...smile.gif


I cannot encode using fb2k 0.9.1 either.


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guruboolez
post Apr 26 2006, 18:00
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It seems that people have a different experience of Nero's new encoder.
I can't use foobar2000 for encoding; my mp4 files have this information: tool = Nero AAC codec / Apr 19 2006

kurtnoise can use the encoder with foobar2000 and the files are reporting this: tool = Nero AAC Codec 4.2.9.11

source.
Is there a problem on my side?
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Digga
post Apr 26 2006, 18:16
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QUOTE
To remove Nero Scout, just execute:
regsvr32 /u "%COMMONPROGRAMFILES%\Ahead\Lib\MediaLibraryNSE.dll"
I haven't downloaded the new package so I didn't tried it but it seems to work.


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