IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Do you use FLAC or WAVPACK?, Simple poll on two of the most popular lossless codecs
Do you use FLAC or WAVPACK?
Do you use FLAC or WAVPACK?
FLAC [ 325 ] ** [54.99%]
WAVPACK [ 222 ] ** [37.56%]
Neither, I use another losless codec [ 44 ] ** [7.45%]
Total Votes: 718
  
Badass01
post Apr 23 2006, 13:56
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 24251





Please also state your reason why...
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
jcoalson
post Apr 24 2006, 07:14
Post #2


FLAC Developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 1526
Joined: 27-February 02
Member No.: 1408



can someone fill me in about this supposed "slowness" of FLAC tags? guruboolez keep repeating it, but the reference encoder puts in 4k of padding by default, and you can change that in the unlikely event you really need more. with proper padding all metadata edits are instantaneous.

Josh
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
guruboolez
post Apr 24 2006, 12:11
Post #3





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 3474
Joined: 7-November 01
From: Strasbourg (France)
Member No.: 420



QUOTE (jcoalson @ Apr 24 2006, 07:14 AM) *
can someone fill me in about this supposed "slowness" of FLAC tags? guruboolez keep repeating it, but the reference encoder puts in 4k of padding by default, and you can change that in the unlikely event you really need more. with proper padding all metadata edits are instantaneous.

Josh

Hi,
the problem I mentionned is maybe a consequence of a bad support of padding in several application. It was the case in the past at least. For example, it's only after I complained about it three years ago that Case introduced padding support in the dedicated diskwriter component of foobar2000:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=126256
It also seems that foobar2000 improved tag editing inside flac, vorbis and mp3 - which should imply that previous versions where not so good (it has to be confirmed though). I also remember other applications I tested some time ago (was it Tag & Rename, I can't say anymore) which doesn't take advantage at all from existing padded area.
So if I'm not wrong, to be a working solution padding must be supported by tagging editors and it's (or was) not apparently always the case. Such issue doesn't exist with tags located at the end, even with poor tagging software.

I complained for another reason: I was used to add several tagging fields inside lossless encodings. In a not-so-old past, my favorite hobby was to add EAC's extraction log file as a dedicated field. Because .log files are 4...10 kb long the 4kb padding size was by far not enough. I finally leave this bad habit because it causes annoying issue on memory usage (foobar2000 took -database loaded in RAM- 120.000 Kb... and not all files were tagged or present in the library tongue.gif).

Nonetheless, as I reported it in fb2k forum 2 days ago, there's a common (I'd say) situation where 4Kb is not enough: it's flac+cue situation in where one single file must endure the charge of information usually splitted in multiple tracks. For example, when I encoded two days ago a mono disc for testing WavPack 4.4, I did first in flac format as single albumfile and by using freedb information only. Here's the result (log by frontah):
CODE
FLAC, Vendor: sjeng.org libFLAC 1.1.2.1 20060107
513.583 kbit/s, 16 bit, 44100 Hz, Stereo
Length: 46:12.760

Filesize: 177 975 519 bytes  (169.73 MB)
Uncompressed: 466.29 MB (36.40%)

-------- Tags --------
Vorbis (207 items, size: 11 323 bytes)

Not only the file had to be rewritten just after the encoder finished its job, but if I add a new field to the basic ones, the file has to be written again for a third time because the padding reservoir is already vanished... That's why I suggested to foobar2000 developers to:
- use more than 4Kb padding when a user set the converter to "create a single file with cuesheet"
- add a new padding reservoir when the first one is full

A second situation where tags located at the beginning are possibly boring: adding cover (usually more than 10 kb) inside a file... Once embedded (and files rewritten), there's still no padding anymore and each tags revision implies a new happy moment of rewritting. With large storage capacity of modern HDD and with masstagging software, a simple revision of all files (i.e. convert "NUMBEROFCD to "TOTALDISCS") may took a complete afternoon, with possible corruption (if the app. crashes) but only 15 minutes with APEv2. You see the problem? wink.gif

So I don't think people have to use tags in an extravagant manner to be annoyed by FLAC tagging system. But with foobar2000 0.9 I admit that my daily tagging experience is much more positive than in the past (excepted for CD image, to be avoided unless stoic patience wink.gif)


EDIT: I'm using 16384 kb of padding with flac. Could you tell me if there's a limit for padding? I thought I read once 16 or 32 Kb as limit, but I didn't found the information again.

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Apr 24 2006, 12:32
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Badass01   Do you use FLAC or WAVPACK?   Apr 23 2006, 13:56
- - senab   I use FLAC. Simply because my old DAP (Rio Karma)...   Apr 23 2006, 14:09
- - keytotime   I use WavPack because of the smaller file size and...   Apr 23 2006, 14:11
- - toology   WavPack because of good encoding/decoding speed an...   Apr 23 2006, 14:25
- - Fandango   Wavpack: higher compression   Apr 23 2006, 15:05
- - Maglor   FLAC, because my iAudio supports it. No other reas...   Apr 23 2006, 15:36
- - esa372   I used FLAC for quite a while, but I recently swit...   Apr 23 2006, 15:43
- - vitos   WavPack - because of better compression and hybrid...   Apr 23 2006, 15:45
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (vitos @ Apr 23 2006, 03:45 PM) Wav...   Apr 23 2006, 16:00
- - jmartis   I've used Wavpack lossy, but I've just acq...   Apr 23 2006, 16:02
- - ffooky   FLAC because it is universally accepted and compat...   Apr 23 2006, 16:06
- - lextune   I use both, for different reasons. I use WavPack ...   Apr 23 2006, 16:11
- - iGold   FLAC because of wide Linux support and embedded cu...   Apr 23 2006, 16:53
- - pepoluan   Between FLAC and WavPack I use FLAC for it's c...   Apr 23 2006, 17:34
- - krmathis   Other -->> Apple Lossless Simply because i...   Apr 23 2006, 18:45
- - Synthetic Soul   This is spooky. I was going to start a new ...   Apr 23 2006, 18:51
|- - Shade[ST]   Wavpack -- I like the name better.   Apr 23 2006, 18:55
- - singaiya   Wavpack for the hybrid feature. I don't use lo...   Apr 23 2006, 19:03
- - Sebastian Mares   WavPack because it's faster.   Apr 23 2006, 19:15
- - slks   FLAC - more support, faster decoding.   Apr 23 2006, 19:24
- - Mo0zOoH   Wavpack: fast decoding, good compression, great su...   Apr 23 2006, 19:32
- - rjamorim   Wavpack. Partially because Bryant is a hell of a g...   Apr 23 2006, 19:34
- - Duble0Syx   I use WavPack. I like the extra compression, alth...   Apr 23 2006, 19:41
- - kwanbis   shouldn't you had inclided monkey, alac, yalac...   Apr 23 2006, 20:01
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (kwanbis @ Apr 23 2006, 07:01 PM) s...   Apr 23 2006, 20:12
- - gfngfgf   Wavpack, better compression   Apr 23 2006, 20:01
- - My name is Mud   FLAC - partially because my copy of EAC is already...   Apr 23 2006, 20:24
- - Realityfreak   WavPack I like the compression ratio, the decompr...   Apr 23 2006, 20:39
- - Alexxander   FLAC -8 because of the fast decoding speed and nat...   Apr 23 2006, 20:39
- - Menollo   FLAC because: 1. it decodes faster.. (dont know th...   Apr 23 2006, 21:33
|- - shadowking   QUOTE (Menollo @ Apr 23 2006, 12:33 PM) F...   Apr 24 2006, 07:21
- - DreamTactix291   WavPack for a few reasons. Faster compression spee...   Apr 23 2006, 22:04
- - CyberFoxx   Flac, mostly for the better Linux support. Then a...   Apr 23 2006, 23:16
- - fairyliquidizer   I saw an alternative at Ikea called FLATPAC   Apr 23 2006, 23:18
- - rehgf   WavPack, because of better size to decompression s...   Apr 24 2006, 01:07
- - VCSkier   wavpack, largely because of the ability to embed c...   Apr 24 2006, 01:44
- - beto   I switched from Monkey's and FLAC to Wavpack. ...   Apr 24 2006, 02:59
- - jcoalson   can someone fill me in about this supposed "s...   Apr 24 2006, 07:14
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Apr 24 2006, 07:14 AM) ...   Apr 24 2006, 12:11
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 24 2006, 06:11 AM...   Apr 24 2006, 17:06
|- - ChristianHJW   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Apr 24 2006, 11:11 AM...   Apr 25 2006, 16:36
- - kjoonlee   I think he needs (but doesn't want) 32kb~64kb ...   Apr 24 2006, 07:21
- - kjoonlee   No implementations, maybe?   Apr 24 2006, 07:26
|- - user   I started Lossless with Flac some years ago, went ...   Apr 24 2006, 10:40
- - sshd   I use both. Wavpack for the handful of 192k/24bit...   Apr 24 2006, 10:36
- - micimaci   WavPack - speed, warm fuzzy feeling   Apr 24 2006, 10:49
- - shadowking   I use wavpack. It is cutting edge technology, grea...   Apr 24 2006, 13:06
- - tpc   I use monkey and have been for the past few years,...   Apr 24 2006, 13:11
- - Zergen   APE High - I use lossless for archive and listen M...   Apr 24 2006, 13:25
- - yane   Recent convert to Wavpack. I was using FLAC for o...   Apr 24 2006, 13:53
- - zombiewerewolf   I go for Wavpack. It's fast and has better enc...   Apr 24 2006, 14:05
- - laneling   Wavpack is better,I think.   Apr 24 2006, 14:17
- - zepoloo   I find the emphasis on speed and compression somew...   Apr 24 2006, 17:41
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (zepoloo @ Apr 24 2006, 05:41 PM) T...   Apr 24 2006, 17:57
|- - user   QUOTE (zepoloo @ Apr 24 2006, 06:41 PM) I...   Apr 24 2006, 17:58
||- - Northpole   QUOTE (user @ Apr 24 2006, 11:58 AM) QUOT...   Apr 29 2006, 03:22
|- - My name is Mud   QUOTE (zepoloo @ Apr 24 2006, 09:41 AM) C...   Apr 24 2006, 19:47
- - snookerdoodle   Flac because plugins were available at the time fo...   Apr 24 2006, 18:36
- - Squeller   Wavpack, good speed, better compression, actively ...   Apr 24 2006, 19:31
- - TimYork   WavPack, because I get better compression with a p...   Apr 24 2006, 19:54
|- - Wombat   Flac. Since my hardwareplayer supports it native. ...   Apr 24 2006, 21:09
- - opeth2112   Wavpack - compression ratio mainly. No player tha...   Apr 24 2006, 21:24
- - Badass01   Is it pretty easy to convert from FLAC to Wavpack ...   Apr 24 2006, 22:21
|- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (Badass01 @ Apr 24 2006, 09:21 PM) ...   Apr 24 2006, 22:34
||- - valnar   QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Apr 24 2006, 01:3...   Apr 24 2006, 23:41
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Badass01 @ Apr 24 2006, 10:21 PM) ...   Apr 24 2006, 22:34
- - nyarlathotep   I use WavPack. (Yes I like the red foobar2000 wv i...   Apr 24 2006, 22:31
|- - bryant   QUOTE (nyarlathotep @ Apr 24 2006, 02:31 ...   Apr 25 2006, 05:11
- - Andavari   I use: WavPack (Normal, -m) via Speek's WavPac...   Apr 25 2006, 00:22
- - keytotime   This is the batch file that I use to transcode bet...   Apr 25 2006, 01:29
- - cadash   wavpack, better compression, it is very fast on my...   Apr 25 2006, 01:30
- - ChristianHJW   I love both FLAC and Wavpack. Only reason i am fav...   Apr 25 2006, 02:13
- - Musique-Rabbit   .WV in -h mode.   Apr 25 2006, 02:22
- - Canar   Wavpack, with the -x6 command-line, because I like...   Apr 25 2006, 03:02
- - Cartman_Sr   Not that my opinion counts or anything, but I use ...   Apr 25 2006, 06:49
- - guruboolez   I'm using matroska for most of my videos needs...   Apr 25 2006, 16:51
- - My name is Mud   I thought that Matroska was better suited to A/V n...   Apr 25 2006, 18:48
- - flcpge   FLAC because I'm used to it.   Apr 25 2006, 19:29
- - lex_nasa   Wavpack - better compression and hybrid mode   Apr 27 2006, 12:02
- - Julien   I mostly use Wavpack, not so much for music archiv...   Apr 27 2006, 13:33
- - DARcode   WavPack for speed, compression and hybrid mode.   Apr 27 2006, 19:12
- - Xenion   Wavpack because of its perfect cue-sheet support a...   Apr 28 2006, 01:54
- - miscellanea   past : FLAC for fast decoding. now : WavPack for b...   Apr 28 2006, 02:37
- - mariuszn3   FLAC.. just because I'm keeping all albums in ...   Apr 28 2006, 12:38
- - man   WavPack. Best efficiency, ie. decoding speed vs si...   Apr 28 2006, 13:04
|- - Dhry   As usual, I tried them all. Optim, APE, FLAC, WV e...   Apr 28 2006, 15:37
- - Gregorian   Newbie here & a virgin post! Wavpack rip ...   Apr 28 2006, 19:59
- - xequence   FLAC. I just havnt given any thought to it... And ...   Apr 28 2006, 21:11
- - moi   Using Wavpack. One thing surprised me yesterday th...   Apr 30 2006, 18:00
- - krmathis   moi. A lossless encoder only compress the PCM data...   Apr 30 2006, 18:13
|- - moi   QUOTE (krmathis @ Apr 30 2006, 09:13 AM) ...   Apr 30 2006, 19:29
||- - kanak   QUOTE (moi @ May 1 2006, 12:29 AM) QUOTE ...   Apr 30 2006, 19:45
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (krmathis @ Apr 30 2006, 02:13 PM) ...   Apr 30 2006, 20:09
|- - krmathis   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Apr 30 2006, 09:09 PM) ...   Apr 30 2006, 20:25
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (krmathis @ Apr 30 2006, 04:25 PM) ...   Apr 30 2006, 21:23
- - HotshotGG   Both: FLAC for compatability these days though and...   May 1 2006, 23:38
- - geopoul   Wavpack for me ... ...although I like FLAC too. I ...   May 2 2006, 01:52
- - birdie   WMA lossless with no particular reason. Anyway it...   May 2 2006, 04:25
- - Digisurfer   I'm about to change over from Monkey's Aud...   May 2 2006, 07:48
- - PatchWorKs   I use FLAC (for lossless and Vorbis for lossy) ...   May 2 2006, 09:12
2 Pages V   1 2 >


Closed TopicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th July 2014 - 08:15