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Will Vorbis 2.0 be backwards compatible?
tsioc
post Apr 19 2006, 11:36
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topic says it all.
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Garf
post Apr 19 2006, 12:42
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As far as I know noone is working on it, so the question makes no sense.
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tsioc
post Apr 19 2006, 13:02
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QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 19 2006, 04:42 AM) *
As far as I know noone is working on it, so the question makes no sense.



I thought I remembered reading a while back about it being worked on, that it would streamline the decoding so it would take up fewer resources...
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Liisachan
post Apr 21 2006, 09:18
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Probably this info is too old but in Ogg Traffic for Wednesday, February 25, 2004 they said:

QUOTE
Another proposed solution, which is being favored at the moment, is for all codecs (except for Vorbis I, for backwards compatibility) to use start-time for granulepos.


Oggfile is a nicely working format to store Vorbis, which everyone loves, but this file format is--or, at least, was--not flexible enough as a general-purpose multimedia container. Note that I'm talking about the container (OggFile), not codec (Vorbis). Vorbis is not bad at all.
Among other things, OggFile couldn't store subtitle streams properly as you can read in the above Ogg Traffic, which I pesonally experienced too when handling OGM 0.9.9.6. OGM was not an official xiph format but it was based on OggFile, sharing the exactly same problem (i.e. 2 subtitles can not overlap timeline-wise.)

There was a possible hack for OggWrit, xiph's subtitle format, to solve this problem, but afaik xiph ppl were going to update the Ogg format itself, not just using an ad-hoc hack, to make it more flexible; even so, they were not going to change Vorbis I, as an exception, for backwards compatibility, because it was already very widely used.
In other words, if there was "Vorbis II" it would be probably not backword-comaptible.
But that's just hypothetical.
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HotshotGG
post Apr 22 2006, 06:11
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QUOTE
There was a possible hack for OggWrit, xiph's subtitle format, to solve this problem, but afaik xiph ppl were going to update the Ogg format itself, not just using an ad-hoc hack, to make it more flexible; even so, they were not going to change Vorbis I, as an exception, for backwards compatibility, because it was already very widely used.
In other words, if there was "Vorbis II" it would be probably not backword-comaptible.
But that's just hypothetical.


Let's consider the circumstances overall, doing something simple as changing the window function, would break backwards compatibility. If I understand the situation correctly.

This post has been edited by HotshotGG: Apr 22 2006, 06:13


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kjoonlee
post Apr 22 2006, 06:56
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QUOTE (tsioc @ Apr 19 2006, 09:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Garf @ Apr 19 2006, 04:42 AM) *

As far as I know noone is working on it, so the question makes no sense.



I thought I remembered reading a while back about it being worked on, that it would streamline the decoding so it would take up fewer resources...

Xiph.org were interested in publishing a subset of Vorbis I, which would make decoders simpler. Nobody's started working on it yet, AFAIK.


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vlada
post Apr 22 2006, 08:09
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It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead. Almost nobody is working on Vorbis, Theora isn't moving any further and has really low quality. And I haven't heard any news about FLAC and Speex neither.
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Liisachan
post Apr 22 2006, 08:59
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 22 2006, 07:09 AM) *
It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead. Almost nobody is working on Vorbis, Theora isn't moving any further and has really low quality. And I haven't heard any news about FLAC and Speex neither.


I don't think so. For instance, look at ffmpeg2theora and illiminable's filters for Ogg Vorbis, Speex, Theora and FLAC. Theora is not very hq, but it's decent if you are a good encoder and encoding speed is very fast, and it's totally free. Altho being alpha, it should be already usable for some purposes.
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kjoonlee
post Apr 22 2006, 10:22
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If you want to know what's going on at Xiph.org...

http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/commits


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jmvalin
post Apr 22 2006, 14:16
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 22 2006, 05:09 PM) *
It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead. Almost nobody is working on Vorbis, Theora isn't moving any further and has really low quality. And I haven't heard any news about FLAC and Speex neither.


Thanks for making me realize that Windows was dead as well (I mean, the last release was 2001!). Oh, and BTW, the last Speex release was 2 months ago, but I'm sorry I didn't announce it to you personally. If you leave your phone number, I'll call you before the next release, promise!

QUOTE (tsioc @ Apr 19 2006, 08:36 PM) *
[Will Vorbis 2.0 be backwards compatible?]
topic says it all.


While we're at it, could anyone tell me if Windows 2012 will be compatible with Vista? It's really important for me to know that now!
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sh1leshk4
post Apr 22 2006, 18:31
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Someone seems really ticked off here. biggrin.gif

Anyway, like some pointed out, Theora isn't dead (yet).
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Supacon
post Apr 22 2006, 19:46
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 22 2006, 01:09 AM) *
It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead. Almost nobody is working on Vorbis...


Aoyumi is doing a great job optimizing vorbis with his aoTuV encoder. He's working on another alpha right now, I believe.

Also, Thomas Beck has been working on finishing up a really powerful new lossless codec (codenamed YALAC atm) that could potentially be integrated with FLAC at some point.

But even if there hadn't been significant updates recently, that doesn't constitute anything being "dead", depracated, obsolete, etc. Why fix something that works fine?
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jorsol
post Apr 22 2006, 19:51
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QUOTE
It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead. Almost nobody is working on Vorbis, Theora isn't moving any further and has really low quality. And I haven't heard any news about FLAC and Speex neither.

Speex 1.1.12 was released on February 2006. (2 months ago)
Vorbis 1.1.2 was released on November 2005. (6 months ago)
Theora 1.0 Alpha 5 was released on August 2005. (9 months ago)
FLAC 1.1.2 was released on February 2005. (14 months ago)

In the monthly meeting of March 2006, Monty said that libogg2 is the priority right now, and Theora 1.0 is the end goal... so if you think that all Xiph.org project are dead... then you are totally wrong... Xiph.org is know for not make releases too often... but why do you need a new release every month?

I'm not sure about how are going the things with FLAC but probably Josh is working hard on it...

If you said that nobody is working on Vorbis, then you are wrong again... Aoyumi is working on Aotuv beta 5 right now... yes, he is probably not a member of Xiph but Monty said that probably the next vorbis release will merge the aotuv tunings (I don't know if will be beta 4.51 or beta 4).

Theora is moving slow but if you said that has really low quality then again you are wrong... the quality of theora is quite similar to XviD or DivX.... maybe can't compete with h.264 but based on that theora is based on VP3 that has five years old and the quality is pretty decent... Theora 1.0 is the end goal for Xiph.org right now... and will be ready probably this year...

Haven't heard any news about Speex?? yes... you should give your phone number to Jean-Marc... 1.1.12 was released 2 MONTHS AGO.


Back to the main question... there is a simple answer... probably not... but sice Vorbis II is so far vapourware you should not worry right now...


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vlada
post Apr 22 2006, 20:12
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QUOTE (jmvalin @ Apr 22 2006, 03:16 PM) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 22 2006, 05:09 PM) *

It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead. Almost nobody is working on Vorbis, Theora isn't moving any further and has really low quality. And I haven't heard any news about FLAC and Speex neither.


Thanks for making me realize that Windows was dead as well (I mean, the last release was 2001!). Oh, and BTW, the last Speex release was 2 months ago, but I'm sorry I didn't announce it to you personally. If you leave your phone number, I'll call you before the next release, promise!


I'm sorry if I have been to hard by saying the projects are dead. I certainly didn't mean it so. I'm glad that the work on Speex codec continues, thank you for it. Unfortunately I haven't looked at Speex's webpage lately. I expected somebody to announce any new releases here at HA.

Btw. have you ever talked with Matroska developers about Speex support? This would be very useful for storing speech-only audio tracks.

Anyway, what I think is really a shame, is the fact, that there is not much progress in Theora development. Compare Theora to XviD or x264, there is a huge difference in quality. I know it is easier to develop a codec if you have defined standard, but Theora didn't start from zero. It's based on VP3 codec. What might help to spread Theora more widely (and hopefully accelerate it's development) would be a browser plugin (Firefox, IE, Opera at least) for OGG-Theora/Vorbis/Speex with http streaming support. Now the only 2 formats which allow this are ASF-WMV/WMA and AVI-DivX/MP3.

I think what all Xiph.org projects need is more support for and users. I think a very good example is the Matroska team, who coded a lot of usefull applications for their format.
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vlada
post Apr 22 2006, 20:34
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jorsol> I posted my answer before I saw your post. I know that Ayoumi is tuning Vorbis encoder, but it seems to me like if he's the only one working on it. Anyway he does a great job and thanks to him Vorbis is the best lossy audio compression for most bitrate ranges.

It would be really nice to see Theora 1.0 release this year. But I don't agree with you that you can compare Theora to XviD or DivX. Have you seen Doom9's codec comparison? I think Theora needs a lot of work before it can compete with XviD. In all four main aspects - Quality, Speed, Size accuracy and usability.

I'm a big fan of all Xiph.org projects, so I was quite dissapointed when I haven't seen much progress in the projects lately. I'm glad to hear that all the projects are still in active development.

Btw. What will be new in libogg2?
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jorsol
post Apr 22 2006, 21:41
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Yes, Theora need a lot of work... and thats why it is still in alpha...

for me the quality of theora is ok... remeber that is based on vp3 that has 5 years old and don't have almost any quality improvements since then (imagine the potential of theora if was based on vp6 or even vp5).... XviD on the other hand is constantly improving it quality.... but when theora hits 1.0, I really hope that Xiph focus in improve the quality.... also note that maybe only 3 or 2 people are working on theora.... I agree that Theora can't compete with h.264 (here is a huge diference in quality).... but still have a chance to compete with XviD...

I agree with you that Theora need lot of work before compete with XviD, but is not so behind it...

Xiph.org don't have an army of developers, is a is a non-profit corporation and they make pretty much without requesting nothing in return.... everybody that want to help is always welcome... I don't imagine how can vorbis compete with modern codecs without the aotuv tunings....

QUOTE
Btw. What will be new in libogg2?
Probably the notable change is low memory footprint.... I'm not sure about other things....


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Liisachan
post Apr 23 2006, 02:32
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 22 2006, 07:34 PM) *
jorsol> I posted my answer before I saw your post. I know that Ayoumi is tuning Vorbis encoder, but it seems to me like if he's the only one working on it.


Come on, are you talking about Ogg Vorbis without even knowing about Lancer? *sigh*
And not Ayoumi , A-O-yumi, hence A-O-tuv


QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 22 2006, 07:34 PM) *
Have you seen Doom9's codec comparison? I think Theora needs a lot of work before it can compete with XviD. In all four main aspects - Quality, Speed, Size accuracy and usability.
Have you ever encoded video with Theora yourself? Or have you just read or heard about it in doom9's? What you are assuming is basically true, but you were wrong when you said "really low quality"
Check the newest comparison, and play the real sample clips. Theora is not HQ, but can be about as good as XviD. In other words, today's XviD is not the best codec anymore, when compared with x264, rv10, vp7, SNOW, and eventually Dirac. Note that I love XviD, I use it most often myself, and I'm even hosting the newest cvs versions. and XviD is getting better too. Still, the fact is the fact. Again, theora is not very hq. Maybe it was the worst among the 7 or so codecs in that test. Btw, Theora is based on VP3, and here's the same video encoded in Theora (~VP3), VP6, VP7. Considering that the quality today's users would want is the one of VP7 or x264 (AVC), Theora is really handicapped. VP7 is obviously better than VP6. And probably VP6 is better than VP5...and so on, down to VP3 ^^;

Nevertheless it's an exaggeration to say "really low quality" about Theora. Theora's quality is decent. Besides, in the above testing, Theora was encoded by 1-pass. The quality can be significantly better once ffmpeg supports 2-pass Theora encoding.

Finally, when you said "Quality, Speed, Size accuracy and usability" you missed one point; unlike MPEG (XviD is an MPEG-4 Part 2 codec in case you didn't know), Theora is patent free. You can distribute theora encoders and decoders freely. If you are going to compare MPEG with Ogg, please consider that point too. Beause of that very reason, some games use Ogg Vorbis, because they don't want to pay the MPEG license fees. The similar thing might happen in video, and so there is one important point about Theora besides "Quality, Speed, Size accuracy and usability".
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Liisachan
post Apr 23 2006, 02:45
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This was posed a few days ago.

http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Summer_of_Code

QUOTE
* 1.1 Optimize Theora encoding/decoding speed, SSE/SSE2
* 1.2 Theora reference encoder quality optimization
* 1.3 Encode support in theora-exp
* 1.4 Development assistant for the "Ghost" audio codec
* 1.5 OggMNG implementation
* 1.6 Subtitle Editor
* 1.7 OggSkeleton tool support
* 1.8 MXF support in gstreamer
* 1.9 Hardware implementation of Theora decoding
* 1.10 Ogg Dirac mapping and integration in players
* 1.11 Intel to AT&T x86 assembly translation
...

This is a draft proposal for Google Summer of Code projects with Xiph.org.


Ogg Dirac ! sounds interesting...biggrin.gif
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kjoonlee
post Apr 23 2006, 04:25
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The Schrödinger Project

Ogg Dirac work is being done by the BBC and Fluendo.


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vlada
post Apr 26 2006, 11:10
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Liisachan> First of all sorry to Aoyumi for misspelling his name, I know his name, just misspelled it. Unfortunately I don't know about Lancer. I'm not so much involved in audio compression formats. But I know more about video compression (you've probaly seen me at doom9). I always do some tests myself if I want to prove something. And I was really thinking about OGG Theora for distributing video.

I work for official webpages of an ice-hockey club in our city. I want to set up a new and better multimedia part of the web. But unfortunately I need all people to be able to playback my video files withou to much effort from their site. This is the main point where my idea about OGG/Theora/Vorbis failed. I think that the support for end users sould be also one of points that Xiph should concentrate in.

Btw. OGG Dirac sounds also interesting for me.
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Supacon
post Apr 26 2006, 23:37
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Isn't that more up to the creators of the software being used to play it back? I have this funny feeling that Microsoft, for example, isn't going to go too far out of their way to support the enemy. Ogg is philosophically polar opposite to WMA, and it competes with their interests. The same can likely be said for other manufacturers, and many other codecs.
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jorsol
post Apr 27 2006, 00:29
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yes... Microsoft will never add native support for Ogg (or others open formats) but you can always download illiminable directshow filters, and have great support for Ogg codecs on all directshow players including Windows Media Player (that BTW sucks)....

And I'm pretty sure that if the format get more popular, some software developers will add native support for Ogg... and hardware players are going to support Theora just like DivX, with the advantage that they dont have to pay expensive patent licenses....

PS: Ogg Dirac sounds really great!!!


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Liisachan
post Apr 27 2006, 00:57
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QUOTE (vlada @ Apr 26 2006, 10:10 AM) *
Liisachan> First of all sorry to Aoyumi for misspelling his name, I know his name, just misspelled it. Unfortunately I don't know about Lancer. I'm not so much involved in audio compression formats. But I know more about video compression (you've probaly seen me at doom9). I always do some tests myself if I want to prove something. And I was really thinking about OGG Theora for distributing video.
Sure I knew your nick, I even quoted you recently there, right? Gabest's VP62-clone decoder working better than On2's official decoder, that was a really good one biggrin.gif And I can tell that you are not interested in xiph projects too much from the fact you keep spelling Ogg as OGG.

QUOTE
I work for official webpages of an ice-hockey club in our city. I want to set up a new and better multimedia part of the web. But unfortunately I need all people to be able to playback my video files withou to much effort from their site. This is the main point where my idea about OGG/Theora/Vorbis failed. I think that the support for end users sould be also one of points that Xiph should concentrate in.
You are right, but that's another thing. You were talking about "really low quality", not about player support, weren't you?
I agree with your point. Recently I had to post a sample clip in the doom9 forum and here in HA, to confirm the fact that LAVC in ffdshow is buggy for 6-ch Vorbis. I could have tried to make my sample (Theora+Vorbis).ogg but I didn't. I just made it (XviD+Vorbis).ogm. I even avoided .mkv. Because a long explanation would be needed to play theora, whereas for ogm, I can just say "Use MPC".
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=43983

Anyway, if you are "not so much involved in audio compression formats" I don't think you can judge the whole situation and say "It seems to me, like if all Xiph.org projects were dead."
But on a second thought, it might be that the Czech word for "dead" is not that strong, and you might have just meant "inactive" or something.


QUOTE (jorsol @ Apr 26 2006, 11:29 PM) *
yes... Microsoft will never add native support for Ogg (or others open formats) but you can always download illiminable directshow filters, and have great support for Ogg codecs on all directshow players including Windows Media Player (that BTW sucks)....


There was an intersting "happening" about that wink.gif

[Advocacy] Is Microsoft being cruel to OGG?
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/advocacy/2...ber/001223.html
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bubka
post Apr 27 2006, 01:04
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last I heard of vorbis II was back before I was even final


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smok3
post Apr 27 2006, 01:38
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some ppl are actually using theora and it 'streams' pretty well using java applet, examples:
http://www.kiberpipa.org/video2.php


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