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ultra-low-BR LAME sets 4 1+ hr music in 5MB?, want to put 40 mins to 2 hr + on phone..
pianoplayer88key
post Feb 28 2006, 00:59
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Hi. I'm trying to put some custom ringtones on my V300 (actually, music to listen to - I'll probably be switching among various ones to use as ringtones.)

A few months ago, I basically encoded several songs using something like "lame -b 16 -q 0 -m m --resample 4.25" (I tried -b 8 --lowpass something lower and didn't like the results at all - too much tinkly audio), but I want to change some of the songs, and get a longer playing time.

I'm aware that there are some other settings I've been overlooking, like ATH, -X, etc.
A few questions:
Would I be able to get a higher lowpass value and not have it sound tinkly if I sacrifice signal to noise ratio? (I'm thinking targeting a SNR between 6dB and 20dB or so - I'm not sure. something like listening to a semi-distant AM radio station.)
What do the ATH settings and the -X settings do?
Generally, the lowpass filter I set will be dependent on the highest musical note fundamental played in the song. It is usually never above 4.2kHz, and I'll probably want to lowpass most of them at 4.2kHz, but none below about 3kHz.
I'd like to get close to 2 hours in 5 MB if possible. (At 8kbps I get about an hour and 20 minutes, and at 16kbps I get about 40 minutes.)

Another thing - even though I normalized all the files to -0.0dB (or -0.1 or similar), they're still much quieter than some of the sounds that came on my phone, yet the sounds on my phone don't sound distorted. What do I need to do to get my custom MP3s to sound as loud (or as close as possible) as the other ones, without overdriving them? I'm also willing to give up some dynamic range.

Anyone have any suggestions?
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gameplaya15143
post Feb 28 2006, 01:57
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'their' audio sounds better becaue it uses a higher bitrate than 8kbps..

also.. --resample 4.25 sould actually crash/cause an error and won't work (mp3 only goes down to 8khz) I'll assume you meant --lowpass and not resample wink.gif

8kbps is as low as mp3 goes (according to the standard).. so at that lowest rate, there is no way you can fit 2hrs in 5mb (as you said it was 1hr 40min) the only way to go lower than that would be to use --freeformat, but I have never tried it at such low bitrates (ie. --freeformat -b 6). I also doubt that using anything higher than --lowpass 2 would be artifact free (not at all saying that a 2khz lowpass wont have artifacts at such bitrates)

to move up ATH: --ath-lower -40 (or whatever dB you want)

you also might consider trying lame 3.93.1 or earlier and using --nspsytune to see how that would effect the quality

that's all I can think of at the moment unsure.gif


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lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune
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audioflex
post Feb 28 2006, 02:11
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hmm...if you have aim i could show you some samples of mine for the 8kbps range, you wont be able to squeeze 2hrs out of 5mb, 90 mins at best. PM me

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pianoplayer88key
post Feb 28 2006, 02:59
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QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Feb 27 2006, 04:57 PM)
'their' audio sounds better becaue it uses a higher bitrate than 8kbps..


Are you referring to higher fidelity, or the apparent volume? I'm not looking for hi-fi, but would like to come as close as possible to matching the output RMS volume. (because I'd be messing with the ATH, I want it such that anything quieter than the threshold is white noise.)

QUOTE
also.. --resample 4.25 sould actually crash/cause an error and won't work (mp3 only goes down to 8khz) I'll assume you meant --lowpass and not resample wink.gif


Yes, I meant "--resample 16 --lowpass 4.25" I do things like that - sometimes get ahead of myself typing and skip a word or two. smile.gif (btw, I said resample 16, because I tried 11 and 12, and my phone doesn't support those, but it does support 8kbps.)

QUOTE
8kbps is as low as mp3 goes (according to the standard).. so at that lowest rate, there is no way you can fit 2hrs in 5mb (as you said it was 1hr 40min) the only way to go lower than that would be to use --freeformat, but I have never tried it at such low bitrates (ie. --freeformat -b 6).  I also doubt that using anything higher than --lowpass 2 would be artifact free (not at all saying that a 2khz lowpass wont have artifacts at such bitrates)


What is --freeformat? I looked at switchs.html in the lame folder, but am not sure what it does.

QUOTE
to move up ATH: --ath-lower -40 (or whatever dB  you want)


so if I want a 12dB dynamic range, do I use --ath-lower 12? or do I assume that the original dynamic range is 96db, so I mentally calculate 96-12=84, and use --ath-lower 84? or something in between?

QUOTE
you also might consider trying lame 3.93.1 or earlier and using --nspsytune to see how that would effect the quality


1. Where can I get the(a/some) earlier version(s), and 2. what is -nspsytune? it's not in my switchs.html

QUOTE
that's all I can think of at the moment unsure.gif
*


The fidelity at 16kbps, while not great, is acceptable. 8kbps (the way I've been encoding it) is way too tinkly even with lame's default lowpass filters, if you know what I mean.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm using lame 3.96.1


Another question about lame's lowpass filters:
For various CBR bitrates, mono/stereo/joint, what are recommended lowpass settings (if other than the default) to achieve transparency?
(I don't mean CD quality transparency, but transparency within a range of frequencies, even if you're using --lowpass 3, for example?)

Also, what do they mean by "polyphase" lowpass filter, and what does the lowpass-width do? Does the lowpass filter roll off high frequencies (like -0dB at 10000, -6dB at 10100, -24dB at 10300, -96dB at 10500, for example), or is it something different?


audioflex:
I have aim, but I can't use it on any computer I'm regularly on at this time. Are your samples music or speech? (I'd be mostly encoding music.)

This post has been edited by pianoplayer88key: Feb 28 2006, 03:13
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gameplaya15143
post Feb 28 2006, 03:31
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*most people here will recomend that you not touch the lowpass frequency (i'm not one of them cool.gif )

*only you can determine what is 'transparent' at given bitrates/audio bandwidth

--freeformat lets you use any cbr bitrate you want, but like I said, I haven't tested it at low bitrates (ie. less than 8kbps)... dry.gif why must you make me so curious... tongue.gif

as for lame 3.93.1 or earler... pick a search engine (or search the forum, there are links to 3.90.3 around). I don't know which of the psymodels would be best at such low bitrates.. so try them all (the one from latest lame {nspsytune2 i think}, and gpsycho and nspsytune from the older version)

as for --ath-lower... use positive values to lower it.. negative ones to raise it (you want to use negative ones according to what you said you want to do). I have no clue where ATH is set by default, so I don't know where it is when it's changed.. I just know it's in a different place smile.gif

--lowpass-width might be usefull here.. I don't know
some discussion on it here http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=362585

.. so your phone doesn't support 11025hz? what about 8000hz?


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Vorbis-q0-lowpass99
lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune
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TrNSZ
post Feb 28 2006, 03:51
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First off, use mono and you can get much better quality in smaller space. There is no need to use stereo for a ringtone on a phone with a single speaker.

Also, if you update to a version of the OS without lots of debugging information present, you can easily get 9MB on a V300. If you don't mind the loss of some functionality you probably do not use, it's easy enough to get 12MB. You can find this info all over the internet - it would be redundant to post it here. I have an original V300 and have about 9.5MB available.

Motorola recommends 64kbps MP3 for the V3. It seems to work using 64kbps/44.1kHz, 40kbps/21kHz, and 32kbps/16kHz. These are purely from specs - I've not tried them all myself. I do know that 64kbps/32kHz works on this phone. I've never tried stereo myself either.

You might be able to get lower bitrates working and cram more, but getting 2 hours on this phone ... wow.

Why do you want 2 hours of ringtones anyway?
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pianoplayer88key
post Feb 28 2006, 03:59
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QUOTE (TrNSZ @ Feb 27 2006, 06:51 PM)
First off, use mono and you can get much better quality in smaller space.  There is no need to use stereo for a ringtone on a phone with a single speaker.
Also, if you update to a version of the OS without lots of debugging information present, you can easily get 9MB on a V300.  If you don't mind the loss of some functionality you probably do not use, it's easy enough to get 12MB.  You can find this info all over the internet - it would be redundant to post it here.  I have an original V300 and have about 9.5MB available.
Motorola recommends 64kbps MP3 for the V3.  It seems to work using 64kbps/44.1kHz, 40kbps/21kHz, and 32kbps/16kHz.  These are purely from specs - I've not tried them all myself.  I do know that 64kbps/32kHz works on this phone.  I've never tried stereo myself either.
You might be able to get lower bitrates working and cram more, but getting 2 hours on this phone ... wow.
Why do you want 2 hours of ringtones anyway?
*


Yes I'd use mono.
What should I search for in Google?
...
I want to put several full-length songs on the phone, including from a couple CDs.
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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 1 2006, 00:39
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QUOTE (TrNSZ @ Feb 27 2006, 06:51 PM)
First off, use mono and you can get much better quality in smaller space.  There is no need to use stereo for a ringtone on a phone with a single speaker.


Agreed.

QUOTE
Also, if you update to a version of the OS without lots of debugging information present, you can easily get 9MB on a V300.  If you don't mind the loss of some functionality you probably do not use, it's easy enough to get 12MB.  You can find this info all over the internet - it would be redundant to post it here.  I have an original V300 and have about 9.5MB available.


I searched google with several search terms, like Motorola V300 OS upgrade, and other things, and didn't find anything that specifically mentioned that, or even any OS upgrade files. Could you post a few links, or tell me what I should search for in Google or where I should look?

QUOTE
Motorola recommends 64kbps MP3 for the V3.  It seems to work using 64kbps/44.1kHz, 40kbps/21kHz, and 32kbps/16kHz.  These are purely from specs - I've not tried them all myself.  I do know that 64kbps/32kHz works on this phone.  I've never tried stereo myself either.


I know from experimentation several months ago that 16kbps/16khz and 8kbps/16khz works.

QUOTE
You might be able to get lower bitrates working and cram more, but getting 2 hours on this phone ... wow.
*


Theoretically, if I could get 12MB free that you mentioned above, then at 8kbps I could get 3 hours and 20 minutes, if I didn't have any pictures on it.

--- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Also, I tried using --athlower, --athonly, --athshort, and it didn't make ANY noticeable difference. I even used --athlower 96, expecting to come out with a file that was either silent, or only white noise, and there was no difference between the output and another one in which I didn't touch the ATH. What should I try next?

You know how a wave file that's 16-bit 16kHz mono takes up the same space per minute as a wave that's 8-bit 32khz mono, right? basically by halving the bit depth you can get double the frequency response in the same space. I'm trying to figure out the equivalent of quartering the bit depth (like I mentioned in the wave) so I could use a lowpass of around 4.5 kHz and have it sound clear of artifacts. (I encoded a couple test files at 8kbps 16khz with the -k option to see what it'd do, and rather than reducing the signal to noise ratio (like I said --ath* either didn't work or I'm not using it properly on 3.96.1), it cut out various frequencies in the middle of the spectrum at random. How do I get it to behave PROPERLY???


Another thing... I got my V300 used on ebay, so I don't think I have any warranty to void. I wonder if it'd be possible to purchase a 128MB or 256MB flash memory chip, and install it? (I have a V188 with a broken screen - I wonder if I could/should "practice/learn" on that?)

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gameplaya15143
post Mar 1 2006, 03:17
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I did some testing with 8kbps 8khz and 16kbps 16khz, both mono (lame 3.93.1 and 3.97b2)

don't bother messing with ath, it's not worth the time. I have yet to find a situation where changing it really *helps*.

I think it's pretty much best to use the default lowpass
8kbps had a lot more ringing than I would prefer on both lame versions.

16kbps 16khz mono wasn't so bad to my ears, but 3.97b2's lowpass was around 5.5khz I think, and it tended to 'cut out' a bit. 3.93.1 with --nspsytune had the lowpass at ~4.5khz, but it didn't 'cut out' like the other one did.
So I would recomend this:
lame(pre 3.94) -h -b 16 [-a] --resample 16 --nspsytune [--lowpass 5]

I wouldn't go any lower than 16kbps


--------------------
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lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune
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Danimal
post Mar 1 2006, 04:01
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QUOTE (pianoplayer88key @ Feb 28 2006, 06:39 PM)
QUOTE
Also, if you update to a version of the OS without lots of debugging information present, you can easily get 9MB on a V300.  If you don't mind the loss of some functionality you probably do not use, it's easy enough to get 12MB.  You can find this info all over the internet - it would be redundant to post it here.  I have an original V300 and have about 9.5MB available.


I searched google with several search terms, like Motorola V300 OS upgrade, and other things, and didn't find anything that specifically mentioned that, or even any OS upgrade files. Could you post a few links, or tell me what I should search for in Google or where I should look?



Check out www.motomodders.net or the Motorola forums at www.howardforums.com. The OS on a phone is typically referred to as firmware, and changing the firmware is typically referred to as flexing or flashing the firmware. There is a difference but I don't recall what it is.
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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 1 2006, 04:01
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QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Feb 28 2006, 06:17 PM)
I did some testing with 8kbps 8khz and 16kbps 16khz, both mono (lame 3.93.1 and 3.97b2)

don't bother messing with ath, it's not worth the time. I have yet to find a situation where changing it really *helps*.


I experimented with ATH a little bit today, and didn't notice ANYTHING different.

QUOTE
I think it's pretty much best to use the default lowpass
8kbps had a lot more ringing than I would prefer on both lame versions.


See my above post - the section about comparing wave files with different bit depths (8bit 32khz = 16bit 16khz -- size/minute). I was hoping to use a similar concept to reduce the dynamic range of my mp3s to allow better frequency response without the ringing than I would get with a 16-bit (96dB) range.

QUOTE
16kbps 16khz mono wasn't so bad to my ears, but 3.97b2's lowpass was around 5.5khz I think, and it tended to 'cut out' a bit.  3.93.1 with --nspsytune had the lowpass at ~4.5khz, but it didn't 'cut out' like the other one did.
So I would recomend this:
lame(pre 3.94) -h -b 16 [-a] --resample 16 --nspsytune [--lowpass 5]


I don't need the lowpass any higher than about 4.3 or so. 16kbps sounds fine to me, but I'd like to get a little better quality out of 8. One thing I should mention -- I had tried 8kbps on my phone a few months ago. 8kbps that I was just experimenting with (although it still has significant room for improvement) sounds better than what I remember it sounded like on my phone.

QUOTE
I wouldn't go any lower than 16kbps
*


The only way I can see myself staying with 16kbps is:
A) doing the firmware upgrade TrNSZ suggested to free up more space (although I can't find any info about it, TrNSZ - what should I search for in Google?)
EDIT:: My bad for replying at the same time Danimal did. Thanks for the sites - I'm browsing them now. smile.gif
B) buying a 128MB or 256MB flash chip, opening the phone, and installing it.
not_an_option) buying a new phone (until this one breaks, that is, or I can afford a MUCH better (2^16x) one (which right now doesn't exist in the price range I'd expect to pay for it (~sq_rt(2)x what I paid ($~70) for the V300))

So, would it be better to try to tweak as much performance I can get out of 8, modify the firmware, or install more memory?

Or, does this phone support AAC? I've heard (rumors that) AAC is better than MP3 at the same bitrate. How would AAC at 8kbps (or lower if it's supported) compare to MP3 at 8/16kbps?

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audioflex
post Mar 1 2006, 17:17
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--preset cbr 8 --noshort --scale 1.05 -q0 -mm --resample 8 --lowpass 3.3 --lowpass-width 0.4 --highpass 100

try this with lame 3.97 beta 1, itll eliminate some of that tinkly audio

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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 2 2006, 21:11
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QUOTE (audioflex @ Mar 1 2006, 08:17 AM)
--preset cbr 8 --noshort --scale 1.05 -q0 -mm --resample 8 --lowpass 3.3 --lowpass-width 0.4 --highpass 100

try this with lame 3.97 beta 1, itll eliminate some of that tinkly audio
*


questions...
why do I need --preset? is that different than -b 8?
what is --noshort?
--scale 1.05?
isn't it -m m?
how do I get the entire range of fundamental pitches on a piano (16.35 Hz to 4186.009 Hz) in range?
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audioflex
post Mar 2 2006, 21:15
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unfortunately this is the best 8kbps can do.
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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 2 2006, 21:45
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QUOTE (audioflex @ Mar 2 2006, 12:15 PM)
unfortunately this is the best 8kbps can do.
*

what about AAC, WMA, OGG, other formats, or should I ask about modding the phone at motomodders.net, where I just registered 3 minutes ago and am getting ready to make a post with a few ?s...?
What about like 10 or 12kbps? using --freeformat? (although I wonder if V300 doesn't support it. I couldn't open it with Goldwave/Audacity.)
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audioflex
post Mar 3 2006, 05:49
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none of these will work on the v300, if AAC(+) support is what you need/want then it may be time to look for another phone and possibly carrier.

it is possible to use 12kbps, but it will be VBR, not sure if the v300 can handle it but if you want to experiment go right ahead.

--preset 12 --noshort --scale 1.05 -q0 -mm --resample 8 --lowpass 3.9
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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 3 2006, 19:10
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QUOTE (audioflex @ Mar 2 2006, 08:49 PM)
none of these will work on the v300, if AAC(+) support is what you need/want then it may be time to look for another phone and possibly carrier.

it is possible to use 12kbps, but it will be VBR, not sure if the v300 can handle it but if you want to experiment go right ahead.

--preset 12 --noshort --scale 1.05 -q0 -mm --resample 8 --lowpass 3.9
*


looks like I'm limited to a few options:
update the firmware to get more free memory
whittle down the list of songs to put on it
be willing to accept poor/tinkly audio

and, the one I'd really like to try:
buy a 128MB or 256MB flash chip, open the phone, install it
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audioflex
post Mar 3 2006, 21:20
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the flash memory idea wont work, the memory the v300 uses can be very hard to find, and quite expensive, i would just either flash the firmware on the v300 to get 9.5mb of space and use the 12kbps setting, or get a new phone with expandable memory or at least a lot of internal memory if you really need a lot of music that sounds decent, currently i am using a Samsung a900 and it has 48mb of internal memory, or about 65 songs @ 28kbps AAC+, sounds pretty good for the bitrate..
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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 7 2006, 00:10
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QUOTE (audioflex @ Mar 3 2006, 12:20 PM)
the flash memory idea wont work, the memory the v300 uses can be very hard to find, and quite expensive, i would just either flash the firmware on the v300 to get 9.5mb of space and use the 12kbps setting, or get a new phone with expandable memory or at least a lot of internal memory if you really need a lot of music that sounds decent, currently i am using a Samsung a900 and it has 48mb of internal memory, or about 65 songs @ 28kbps AAC+, sounds pretty good for the bitrate..
*


Hmm...

What are some good phones that are comparable to the V300 or better that:
have at least 32MB to 64MB built-in memory (at least 256MB to 512MB if memory not expandable)
an expandable memory slot (preferably SD (not mini) or CompactFlash, also willing to consider xD, but NOT Memory Stick or SmartMedia)
inexpensive (sell my V300, add $20 to $25, buy another phone) without requiring a contract. I'm on T-Mobile prepaid (my 1 year / $100 / 1k minutes expires in June, and unless I find a better rate before then at the rate of time I seem to be using the phone (so far I'm close to being on schedule for running out of minutes at the same time the year expires, or maybe a few weeks earlier), I plan to renew)
I've looked on CNET.com in the past, but would prefer to look at websites that are dedicated to cell phones and aren't trying to be a jack-of-all-trades like CNET (although I will often use them when I'm first looking for something to get my bearings.) Any suggestions?

In the meantime, anyone know if the V300 supports VBR? (although I'd probably try to use ABR maybe. I just did some experimenting with a track using options "-m m -q 0 --abr x --lowpass 4.2 --resample 16" where --abr x was anywhere from 8 to 16, and I find that 10k is potentially poor but 12k might work.
Any suggestions on how I can squeeze better quality at the lower bitrates? I am not going to change the -m, -q (unless I can get better quality than -q 0), --lowpass, or --resample (because 16k is the lowest the phone supports) options, but would be willing to consider adding other options if it would reduce the tinkliness at my specified lowpass filter and allow me to use a lower value for --abr.
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gameplaya15143
post Mar 7 2006, 01:46
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QUOTE (pianoplayer88key @ Mar 6 2006, 06:10 PM)
In the meantime, anyone know if the V300 supports VBR?  (although I'd probably try to use ABR maybe.  I just did some experimenting with a track using options "-m m -q 0 --abr x --lowpass 4.2 --resample 16" where --abr x was anywhere from 8 to 16, and I find that 10k is potentially poor but 12k might work.
Any suggestions on how I can squeeze better quality at the lower bitrates?  I am not going to change the -m, -q (unless I can get better quality than -q 0), --lowpass, or --resample (because 16k is the lowest the phone supports) options, but would be willing to consider adding other options if it would reduce the tinkliness at my specified lowpass filter and allow me to use a lower value for --abr.
um.. why not upload one of those test files to your phone and see if it supports VBR. ermm.gif

the only things to try would be lame 3.93.1 or older and use --nspsytune, and/or try using -V 9 -B xx (where xx is the max bitrate)

since you can't seem to use a lower samplerate, you might have to lower the lowpass frequency


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lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune
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uart
post Mar 7 2006, 18:14
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Why dont you just use the phone for making phone calls and get yourself a cheap MP3 player for listening to music tongue.gif

Sorry I know that answer wasn't in the spirit of the discussion but I couldn't help it. wink.gif

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pianoplayer88key
post Mar 7 2006, 18:47
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QUOTE (uart @ Mar 7 2006, 09:14 AM)
Why dont you just use the phone for making phone calls and get yourself a cheap MP3 player for listening to music tongue.gif

Sorry I know that answer wasn't in the spirit of the discussion but I couldn't help it. wink.gif
*


Well, if you could suggest a decent pocket-sized 256+MB player < $50 with a built-in speaker capable of at least 60-90dB at 16 Hz to 10 kHz (no, it doesn't need to be flat down to 16 Hz, but I would like to be able to hear musical piano tones down there) without overdriving, I'd consider it.
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audioflex
post Mar 8 2006, 17:17
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id see about reselling that v300, tmobile is offering the samsung t809, which has a transflash slot (up to 1gb storage) and mp3 player, sure the price on it is up there (try to find a used one on ebay), but if convergence and compatibility w/tmobile is what you need...
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