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Sampling rates higher than 44.1Khz?
Grand Dizzy
post Feb 5 2006, 01:10
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I recently met a musician who claims he can quite easily hear the difference between 44.1KHz and 96KHz.

This shocked me a little because I'd always been told that the human ear cannot hear any higher quality than CD (44.1KHz) quality.

So... was this guy just lying (or fooled by his senses), or was I being lied to when I was told the human ear cannot hear any higher quality than CD?

This post has been edited by Grand Dizzy: Feb 5 2006, 01:11
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SebastianG
post Feb 9 2006, 18:17
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QUOTE (Grand Dizzy @ Feb 8 2006, 11:06 PM)
This thread is fascinating! But most of it is too techy for me unfortunately.

Could anyone try again to explain how these byproduct tones/beats come about? And what is the low pass filter's involvement in this? (What is a low pass filter anyway?)
*

Fascinating? Hmm.... May seem so. But I think that some posts here are actually a bit misleading/misinformed.

QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 7 2006, 10:27 PM)
QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 7 2006, 04:29 PM)

Why may I hear something like that ?
*

[...] Mathematically, cos(32KHz)+cos(30KHz) = 2*cos(31KHz)*cos(1KHz). Add the time in equation and you have a 1 KHz harmonic with a variable intensity of 2*cos(31KHz*t). [...]
*


So what ? Just because there's suddenly a cos(1kHz*t) in a product you think you should be able to hear this one? Do you realize that you can also interpret your formula as a 31 kHz sinusoid with an amplitude modulation at a rate of 1 kHz ? Truth is: It does not matter whether a product representation contains usually audible signals. The first form (cos(32kHz)+cos(30kHz)) is the really interesting one. Why ? Because we've a bunch of filters in our inner ear (hair + hair cell) seperating frequencies -- every hair (depending on its location/length) has a certain resonance frequency and acts like a bandpass filter. From signal theory we know such filters are linear and time-invariant (LTI system theory, please check the linearity property on this site).
The linearity suggests that if you can't hear a single tone at 30 or 32 kHz, you also cannot hear anything when cos(30kHz*t)+cos(32kHz*t) is "in the air".


QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 11:51 PM)
That's really interesting actually.  I just created a 96khz wav file with a 30k and a 32k tone and could hear a beat frequency as you say.  Though at 2khz not 1khz
*

This is likely due to one of these things:
- improper anti alias filtering of your sound reproduction system
- non-linear distortions of your sound reproduction system (including clipping)


edit: typos

HTH,
Sebi

This post has been edited by SebastianG: Feb 9 2006, 18:22
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hdante
post Feb 9 2006, 18:46
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QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 9 2006, 03:17 PM)
So what ? Just because there's suddenly a cos(1kHz*t) in a product you think you should be able to

I'm not thinking anything, I'm just repeating what I've just read.

QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 9 2006, 03:17 PM)
hear this one? Do you realize that you can also interpret your formula as a 31 kHz sinusoid with an amplitude modulation at a rate of 1 kHz ? Truth is: It does not matter whether a product
representation contains usually audible signals. The first form (cos(32kHz)+cos(30kHz)) is the really interesting one. Why ? Because we've a bunch of filters in our inner ear (hair + hair cell) seperating

Remember that when we want to tune a guitar, if we have a reference (tuned) string, we tune the others by listening to the beating. And I believe that music professionals may also tune it by listening to the deviating mean frequency. Both things are at the right side of the equation, not the linear one. I can surely tune a guitar by listening to the beatings. If the beating is non-linear so what ? I listen to it.
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bug80
post Feb 9 2006, 18:54
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QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 07:46 PM)
Remember that when we want to tune a guitar, if we have a reference (tuned) string, we tune the others by listening to the beating. And I believe that music professionals may also tune it by listening to the deviating mean frequency. Both things are at the right side of the equation, not the linear one. I can surely tune a guitar by listening to the beatings. If the beating is non-linear so what ? I listen to it.
*

Yes that's correct. BUT the beating we hear is not a "tone" it is the actual tone going up and down in amplitude. So if we can't hear the original tone, we also cannot hear it changing in amplitude. So you cannot hear a 32 kHz tone "beating".

In other words you can hear the following (the 1 kHz tone, at least):

(tone of 32 kHz) + (tone of 1 kHz)

but you can NOT hear the following (which is the case here):

(tone of 32 kHz) * (tone of 1 kHz)

This post has been edited by bug80: Feb 9 2006, 18:54
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Posts in this topic
- Grand Dizzy   Sampling rates higher than 44.1Khz?   Feb 5 2006, 01:10
- - AndyH-ha   The most profound differences are not higher frequ...   Feb 5 2006, 03:34
- - gameplaya15143   call him/her on it... make em prove it to you it ...   Feb 5 2006, 03:38
- - Grand Dizzy   Andy, I didn't realise antialiasing filters we...   Feb 5 2006, 21:48
- - AndyH-ha   MOST audio players (as part of the DAC) use anti-a...   Feb 6 2006, 03:17
|- - Grand Dizzy   Duhh... sorry, that all went completely over my he...   Feb 6 2006, 13:49
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Grand Dizzy @ Feb 6 2006, 07:49 AM)Duh...   Feb 7 2006, 17:48
|- - hdante   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2006, 02:48 PM)QUOTE...   Feb 7 2006, 18:06
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 7 2006, 06:06 PM)[...] Fo...   Feb 7 2006, 19:29
|- - hdante   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 7 2006, 04:29 PM)QUOT...   Feb 7 2006, 22:27
|- - mandel   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 7 2006, 10:27 PM)QUOTE (S...   Feb 7 2006, 23:51
|- - RockFan   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 02:51 PM)That...   Feb 8 2006, 00:07
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 06:07 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 8 2006, 00:27
|- - hdante   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 08:51 PM)That...   Feb 8 2006, 00:48
||- - mandel   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 8 2006, 12:48 AM)QUOTE (m...   Feb 8 2006, 01:04
||- - WmAx   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 08:04 PM)Here is ...   Feb 8 2006, 01:15
|||- - mandel   QUOTE (WmAx @ Feb 8 2006, 01:15 AM)QUOTE (man...   Feb 8 2006, 01:28
|||- - ChiGung   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 08:04 PM)Here is ...   Feb 8 2006, 04:39
|||- - WmAx   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 08:28 PM)- Here w...   Feb 9 2006, 06:22
|||- - bug80   QUOTE (WmAx @ Feb 9 2006, 07:22 AM)Did you no...   Feb 9 2006, 10:48
|||- - WmAx   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 05:48 AM)QUOTE (Wm...   Feb 9 2006, 15:32
||- - hdante   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 10:04 PM)Same res...   Feb 8 2006, 15:41
||- - mandel   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 8 2006, 03:41 PM)QUOTE (m...   Feb 8 2006, 18:12
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 7 2006, 06:51 PM)Why do y...   Feb 8 2006, 00:57
- - enry2k   I know that oversampling in A/D and D/A converters...   Feb 6 2006, 14:06
- - Hollunder   QUOTE (Grand Dizzy @ Feb 6 2006, 01:49 PM)Duh...   Feb 6 2006, 15:53
|- - Grand Dizzy   Oh I think I get it. It's a lot like picture ...   Feb 6 2006, 23:40
- - Hollunder   right, it's principialy the same I found a ni...   Feb 7 2006, 12:58
- - RockFan   QUOTE (Grand Dizzy @ Feb 4 2006, 04:10 PM)I r...   Feb 7 2006, 20:38
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 02:38 PM)Now as ...   Feb 7 2006, 22:11
||- - RockFan   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2006, 01:11 PM)Wrong...   Feb 7 2006, 23:21
||- - WmAx   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 06:21 PM)You sim...   Feb 7 2006, 23:45
||- - RockFan   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 02:21 PM)Of cour...   Feb 7 2006, 23:51
|- - hdante   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 05:38 PM)On play...   Feb 7 2006, 22:37
||- - RockFan   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 7 2006, 01:37 PM)Again, I...   Feb 7 2006, 23:40
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 05:40 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 8 2006, 00:00
|||- - RockFan   QUOTE (krabapple @ Feb 7 2006, 03:00 PM)I loo...   Feb 8 2006, 00:11
|||- - RockFan   You bore me. The last word is yours, please do sa...   Feb 8 2006, 00:19
||- - hdante   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 08:40 PM)But man...   Feb 8 2006, 00:22
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (RockFan @ Feb 7 2006, 03:38 PM)Please ...   Feb 7 2006, 23:39
|- - RockFan   QUOTE (WmAx @ Feb 7 2006, 02:39 PM)By reading...   Feb 7 2006, 23:44
- - sven_Bent   @gangran dizzy i hear alot of audiophiles around ...   Feb 7 2006, 23:04
- - AndyH-ha   QUOTE Why do you say the hi-res mix may be safely ...   Feb 8 2006, 00:27
|- - mandel   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Feb 8 2006, 12:27 AM)Q...   Feb 8 2006, 00:37
- - krabapple   http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic....rum_i...   Feb 8 2006, 00:49
- - Grand Dizzy   This thread is fascinating! But most of it is ...   Feb 8 2006, 23:06
|- - ChiGung   QUOTE (Grand Dizzy @ Feb 8 2006, 10:06 PM)Thi...   Feb 9 2006, 02:53
|- - LoKi128   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 8 2006, 08:53 PM)The que...   Feb 9 2006, 04:26
|- - ChiGung   QUOTE (LoKi128 @ Feb 9 2006, 03:26 AM)The sou...   Feb 9 2006, 13:53
- - LoKi128   Well, here is what little I can remember from RF t...   Feb 9 2006, 02:31
- - Hollunder   I guess the best way to proof that it has influenc...   Feb 9 2006, 04:26
- - krabapple   more on the 'beating' issue, from James Jo...   Feb 9 2006, 18:13
|- - hdante   There's too much interpreting here. I've f...   Feb 9 2006, 18:34
|- - ChiGung   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 05:34 PM)QUOTE (m...   Feb 9 2006, 19:00
||- - SebastianG   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 9 2006, 07:00 PM)Unfortu...   Feb 9 2006, 19:25
|||- - ChiGung   Points well made sebG - seems you are cool -Trie...   Feb 9 2006, 19:40
|||- - hdante   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 9 2006, 04:25 PM)I co...   Feb 9 2006, 19:42
||- - hdante   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 9 2006, 04:00 PM) That i...   Feb 9 2006, 19:39
||- - bug80   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 08:39 PM)Ok, I th...   Feb 9 2006, 19:51
||- - hdante   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 04:51 PM)And how e...   Feb 9 2006, 19:58
||- - bug80   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 08:58 PM)QUOTE (b...   Feb 9 2006, 20:06
||- - hdante   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 05:06 PM)I did and...   Feb 9 2006, 20:09
||- - bug80   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 09:09 PM)QUOTE (b...   Feb 9 2006, 20:16
||- - hdante   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 05:16 PM)... yes? ...   Feb 9 2006, 20:23
|||- - bug80   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 09:23 PM)QUOTE (b...   Feb 9 2006, 20:26
|||- - hdante   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 05:26 PM)By now, d...   Feb 9 2006, 21:19
|||- - bug80   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 10:19 PM)QUOTE (b...   Feb 9 2006, 21:51
||- - ChiGung   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 07:16 PM)QUOTE (hd...   Feb 9 2006, 20:40
||- - bug80   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 9 2006, 09:40 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 9 2006, 20:45
||- - ChiGung   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 07:45 PM)QUOTE (Ch...   Feb 9 2006, 20:56
|- - mandel   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 06:34 PM)There...   Feb 9 2006, 22:40
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (Grand Dizzy @ Feb 8 2006, 11:06 PM)Thi...   Feb 9 2006, 18:17
|- - hdante   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 9 2006, 03:17 PM)So w...   Feb 9 2006, 18:46
|- - bug80   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 07:46 PM)Remember...   Feb 9 2006, 18:54
- - krabapple   JJ again , at even greater length and detail, on h...   Feb 9 2006, 18:45
- - bug80   Here is a little Matlab code for anyone who likes ...   Feb 9 2006, 19:08
|- - ChiGung   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 06:08 PM)Here is a...   Feb 9 2006, 19:11
|- - bug80   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 9 2006, 08:11 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 9 2006, 19:15
|- - ChiGung   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 9 2006, 06:15 PM)QUOTE (Ch...   Feb 9 2006, 19:21
|- - bug80   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 9 2006, 08:21 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 9 2006, 19:25
|- - hdante   QUOTE (ChiGung @ Feb 9 2006, 04:21 PM)Ok, ill...   Feb 9 2006, 19:45
|- - ChiGung   QUOTE (hdante @ Feb 9 2006, 06:45 PM)QUOTE (C...   Feb 9 2006, 19:55
- - SebastianG   It's a matter of time/frequency resolution. If...   Feb 9 2006, 20:56
- - Pio2001   Oh no ! QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Feb 5 2...   Feb 10 2006, 00:48
|- - ChiGung   I think i can see that happening in the amp - that...   Feb 10 2006, 01:53
- - Pio2001   QUOTE (mandel @ Feb 8 2006, 02:28 AM)Here whe...   Feb 10 2006, 00:49
|- - bug80   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Feb 10 2006, 01:49 AM)QUOTE ...   Feb 10 2006, 11:17
|- - LoKi128   QUOTE (bug80 @ Feb 10 2006, 05:17 AM)Anyway, ...   Feb 11 2006, 04:04
- - Rotareneg   For an example of ultrasonic sound producing audib...   Feb 10 2006, 07:18


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