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Why 24bit/48kHz/96kHz/, If 16bit/44.1kHz is good enough?
William
post Dec 29 2005, 13:45
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Yes, I have searched the forum.
Yes, maybe I am dumb.

But it seems I cannot find the answer.

Why do we need 24bit/48kHz/96kHz/192kHz if 16bit/44.1kHz is good enough? Are there any situations that 16bit/44.1kHz simply cannot satisfy? In other words, is there any real need for the higher bit depth and sampling rate?

Thanks for answering.

This post has been edited by William: Dec 29 2005, 13:47
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Revliskciuq
post Dec 30 2005, 03:11
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I have to step out and disagree that there is no audible difference between 16-bit and 24-bit recordings. The decision to use 16/44.1 was arrived at, not because it was audio nirvana, but because it was the best comprimise possible with the digital to analogue conversion technology of the 80's.

To hear the benifits of 24-bit vs. 16-bit, you need a few things:

1) Capable and descriminating ears. The fact is that no everyone can hear the difference, and that's fine. However, even with a capable ear, the individual has to know what he's looking for. We're talking about very subtle points here, the difference is not going to be night and day.

2) Capable audio equipment. Just because you have a DVD-A or SACD player doesn't mean your system is capable of delivering an audible difference. You need very good equipment to make 24-bit listening worth your while.

3) Quality recording. It doesn't matter if the recording is 64-bits - if it was poorly recorded, and poorly produced, it's going to sound poor. Adding another 8 bits is not a magical fix-all.

QUOTE
Well, the advantage of DVDA and SACD is exactly that they are multichannel. And have DRM, which is obviously a big advantage to some people.


I disagree with this, especially with respect to SACD. Alot of hardcore audiophiles (the people who would be investing in expensive high bit recordings) feel very strongly that music should only bet two channels.

In SACD multichannel is optional, but 2-channel is required; in other words every SACD will have high-bit two channel audio, but not necessarily multichannel.

This post has been edited by Revliskciuq: Dec 30 2005, 03:14
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crimsontide
post Mar 13 2006, 14:36
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QUOTE (Revliskciuq @ Dec 29 2005, 08:11 PM)
I have to step out and disagree that there is no audible difference between 16-bit and 24-bit recordings. The decision to use 16/44.1 was arrived at, not because it was audio nirvana, but because it was the best comprimise possible with the digital to analogue conversion technology of the 80's.

To hear the benifits of 24-bit vs. 16-bit, you need a few things:

1) Capable and descriminating ears. The fact is that no everyone can hear the difference, and that's fine. However, even with a capable ear, the individual has to know what he's looking for. We're talking about very subtle points here, the difference is not going to be night and day.

2) Capable audio equipment. Just because you have a DVD-A or SACD player doesn't mean your system is capable of delivering an audible difference. You need very good equipment to make 24-bit listening worth your while.

3) Quality recording. It doesn't matter if the recording is 64-bits - if it was poorly recorded, and poorly produced, it's going to sound poor. Adding another 8 bits is not a magical fix-all.

QUOTE
Well, the advantage of DVDA and SACD is exactly that they are multichannel. And have DRM, which is obviously a big advantage to some people.


I disagree with this, especially with respect to SACD. Alot of hardcore audiophiles (the people who would be investing in expensive high bit recordings) feel very strongly that music should only bet two channels.

In SACD multichannel is optional, but 2-channel is required; in other words every SACD will have high-bit two channel audio, but not necessarily multichannel.
*



Agreed on all counts.

Sometimes I think people mistake failed ABX tests (which if successful, prove there IS a difference), with proof that there is NO difference - which is clearly not the case.

Anyone into Reason? - Might I suggest a project of ABXing with certain fully capable sound cards and a 44.1khz 16bit render, and a 24bit 96khz render direct from Reason? All soundwaves are then regenerated to actually use the accuracy available from the end format. Its hard to find CDs that havent been through a 48khz 16bit step at some point for example - this will eliminate that kind of variable compeltely - while unfortunately dislocating the tests from a real world model to some extent .... I think it would be a worthy project.

I have not abxed it but my subjective tests indicated a perceptible warmth from the 96khz render that was missing from the 44khz render. Some scientific results would be beneficial.


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Societal Eclipse
post Mar 13 2006, 17:40
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QUOTE (crimsontide @ Mar 13 2006, 09:36 AM)
Anyone into Reason? - Might I suggest a project of ABXing with certain fully capable sound cards and a 44.1khz 16bit render, and a 24bit 96khz render direct from Reason? All soundwaves are then regenerated to actually use the accuracy available from the end format. Its hard to find CDs that havent been through a 48khz 16bit step at some point for example - this will eliminate that kind of variable compeltely - while unfortunately dislocating the tests from a real world model to some extent .... I think it would be a worthy project.

I have not abxed it but my subjective tests indicated a perceptible warmth from the 96khz render that was missing from the 44khz render. Some scientific results would be beneficial.
*


I have been using Reason on and off but cannot test myself as my card only goes up to 48khz/24bit.


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Posts in this topic
- William   Why 24bit/48kHz/96kHz/   Dec 29 2005, 13:45
- - Lyx   QUOTE (William @ Dec 29 2005, 01:45 PM)Why do...   Dec 29 2005, 13:53
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Lyx @ Dec 29 2005, 07:53 AM)QUOTE (Wil...   Jan 6 2006, 20:04
- - William   I heard someone saying that increasing the samplin...   Dec 29 2005, 14:09
|- - Garf   QUOTE (William @ Dec 29 2005, 03:09 PM)I hear...   Dec 29 2005, 14:13
|- - William   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 29 2005, 01:13 PM)Normally,...   Dec 29 2005, 14:22
|- - Garf   QUOTE (William @ Dec 29 2005, 03:22 PM)Would ...   Dec 29 2005, 14:45
- - bizangoin   I totally agree with you all. Increasing sample ra...   Dec 29 2005, 14:32
- - William   I am sorry. Thanks.   Dec 29 2005, 14:59
- - singaiya   QUOTE (William @ Dec 29 2005, 04:45 AM)Why do...   Dec 29 2005, 18:44
|- - bug80   QUOTE (singaiya @ Dec 29 2005, 07:44 PM)I hav...   Dec 29 2005, 22:16
- - rosshmusic   I agree that it makes no difference to end users.....   Dec 29 2005, 21:32
|- - Garf   QUOTE (rosshmusic @ Dec 29 2005, 10:32 PM)I a...   Dec 29 2005, 21:46
|- - listen   I had a thread here: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/...   Dec 29 2005, 22:24
|- - rosshmusic   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 29 2005, 04:46 PM)QUOTE (ro...   Dec 29 2005, 22:55
||- - Garf   QUOTE (rosshmusic @ Dec 29 2005, 11:55 PM)htt...   Dec 29 2005, 23:58
||- - rosshmusic   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 29 2005, 06:58 PM)QUOTE (ro...   Dec 30 2005, 02:59
||- - bug80   QUOTE (rosshmusic @ Dec 30 2005, 03:59 AM)whe...   Dec 30 2005, 13:54
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 29 2005, 03:46 PM)QUOTE (ro...   Jan 6 2006, 20:10
- - Tool462   ok, i'm a newb so don't give me some slack...   Dec 29 2005, 22:50
|- - Garf   QUOTE (Tool462 @ Dec 29 2005, 11:50 PM)ok, i...   Dec 30 2005, 00:01
- - Revliskciuq   I have to step out and disagree that there is no a...   Dec 30 2005, 03:11
|- - Garf   QUOTE (Revliskciuq @ Dec 30 2005, 04:11 AM)I ...   Dec 30 2005, 13:59
||- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 30 2005, 09:59 PM)Practise ...   Dec 31 2005, 16:22
||- - Garf   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 31 2005, 05:22 PM)Actual...   Dec 31 2005, 16:31
||- - WmAx   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Dec 31 2005, 11:22 AM)but I...   Dec 31 2005, 16:33
||- - Shade[ST]   QUOTE (WmAx @ Dec 31 2005, 09:33 AM)Just to p...   Dec 31 2005, 19:25
||- - WmAx   QUOTE (Shade[ST),Dec 31 2005, 02:25 PM]QUOTE ...   Dec 31 2005, 20:52
||- - enry2k   First: What about ensuring extremely controlled li...   Jan 6 2006, 01:08
||- - Pio2001   QUOTE (William @ Dec 30 2005, 05:03 AM)And wh...   Jan 6 2006, 06:48
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (enry2k @ Jan 5 2006, 07:08 PM)First: W...   Jan 6 2006, 20:27
||- - enry2k   Thank you for quoting the thread, it is really i...   Jan 8 2006, 20:36
|- - crimsontide   QUOTE (Revliskciuq @ Dec 29 2005, 08:11 PM)I ...   Mar 13 2006, 14:36
|- - Cyaneyes   QUOTE (crimsontide @ Mar 13 2006, 08:36 AM)I ...   Mar 13 2006, 15:55
||- - crimsontide   QUOTE (Cyaneyes @ Mar 13 2006, 08:55 AM)QUOTE...   Mar 13 2006, 16:49
|- - Societal Eclipse   QUOTE (crimsontide @ Mar 13 2006, 09:36 AM)An...   Mar 13 2006, 17:40
- - William   OK, so here are some more technical questions I fo...   Dec 30 2005, 04:03
|- - probedb   QUOTE (William @ Dec 30 2005, 04:03 AM)1) The...   Jan 5 2006, 14:28
- - boombaard   so, on a slightly different note, would the 24/96 ...   Dec 30 2005, 14:24
|- - Garf   QUOTE (boombaard @ Dec 30 2005, 03:24 PM)so, ...   Dec 30 2005, 14:25
|- - boombaard   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 30 2005, 02:25 PM)QUOTE (bo...   Dec 30 2005, 14:37
|- - Garf   QUOTE (boombaard @ Dec 30 2005, 03:37 PM)how ...   Dec 30 2005, 15:13
||- - boombaard   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 30 2005, 03:13 PM)QUOTE (bo...   Dec 30 2005, 15:46
||- - jussi   well, and what about the HDCD (20bit) technology? ...   Dec 30 2005, 15:52
|||- - Garf   QUOTE (jussi @ Dec 30 2005, 04:52 PM)well, an...   Dec 30 2005, 16:00
||- - Garf   QUOTE (boombaard @ Dec 30 2005, 04:46 PM)QUOT...   Dec 30 2005, 15:56
|- - Crissaegrim   Definitive answer... Artists record at as high as ...   Dec 30 2005, 17:02
|- - bug80   QUOTE (Crissaegrim @ Dec 30 2005, 06:02 PM)De...   Dec 30 2005, 17:09
- - William   Well, it sounds like these 24bits / whatever kHz a...   Dec 30 2005, 15:54
- - Wintershade   Sorry for popping in like that, but here's my ...   Dec 30 2005, 16:04
|- - bug80   QUOTE (Wintershade @ Dec 30 2005, 05:04 PM)So...   Dec 30 2005, 16:25
||- - Wintershade   QUOTE (bug80 @ Dec 30 2005, 05:25 PM)Do you h...   Jan 2 2006, 12:45
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Wintershade @ Dec 30 2005, 10:04 AM)So...   Jan 6 2006, 20:16
- - Axon   Some DSP algorithms may benefit from a high sampli...   Dec 30 2005, 19:39
- - Lyx   Regarding clipping and samplerate: according to a ...   Dec 30 2005, 19:58
|- - bug80   QUOTE (Lyx @ Dec 30 2005, 08:58 PM)Regarding ...   Dec 31 2005, 12:23
|- - Garf   QUOTE (Lyx @ Dec 30 2005, 08:58 PM)As you kno...   Dec 31 2005, 14:26
- - Raptus   >16bit would be necessary if someone wanted to ...   Dec 30 2005, 20:07
- - NoXFeR   On a sidenote; recorders may want higher frequenci...   Dec 31 2005, 00:05
|- - bug80   QUOTE (NoXFeR @ Dec 31 2005, 01:05 AM)On a si...   Dec 31 2005, 12:16
|- - NoXFeR   QUOTE (bug80 @ Dec 31 2005, 12:16 PM)QUOTE (N...   Dec 31 2005, 15:18
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (NoXFeR @ Dec 31 2005, 10:18 AM)The poi...   Dec 31 2005, 15:29
- - Lyx   One more reason to instead simply use proper level...   Dec 31 2005, 12:33
|- - bug80   QUOTE (Lyx @ Dec 31 2005, 01:33 PM)One more r...   Dec 31 2005, 13:33
|- - Garf   QUOTE (bug80 @ Dec 31 2005, 02:33 PM)QUOTE (L...   Dec 31 2005, 14:20
|- - bug80   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 31 2005, 03:20 PM)QUOTE (bu...   Dec 31 2005, 14:23
|- - Garf   QUOTE (bug80 @ Dec 31 2005, 03:23 PM)QUOTE (G...   Dec 31 2005, 14:31
- - kwwong   The main reason why sampling rates > 44.1Khz is...   Dec 31 2005, 14:30
|- - Garf   QUOTE (kwwong @ Dec 31 2005, 03:30 PM)The mai...   Dec 31 2005, 14:41
||- - kwwong   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 31 2005, 07:41 AM)QUOTE (kw...   Jan 1 2006, 04:30
||- - kwwong   QUOTE (kwwong @ Dec 31 2005, 09:30 PM)QUOTE (...   Jan 1 2006, 04:39
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (kwwong @ Dec 31 2005, 09:30 AM)As for ...   Dec 31 2005, 15:39
- - Garf   Another thing to consider is that with proper dith...   Dec 31 2005, 14:51
|- - marcan   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 31 2005, 05:51 AM)Another t...   Jan 5 2006, 15:57
|- - enry2k   QUOTE (marcan @ Jan 5 2006, 06:57 AM)QUOTE (G...   Jan 8 2006, 21:28
|- - Garf   QUOTE (marcan @ Jan 5 2006, 04:57 PM)QUOTE (G...   Jan 10 2006, 12:33
- - Garf   I think what he's trying to say is this: If y...   Dec 31 2005, 15:31
- - Lyx   I think he means playing 192khz sample at 44khz WI...   Dec 31 2005, 15:31
- - ivalladt   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 29 2005, 03:13 PM)The quest...   Dec 31 2005, 19:13
- - dekkersj   QUOTE (Garf @ Dec 31 2005, 02:51 PM)Another t...   Jan 2 2006, 15:41
- - Qjimbo   Ok, back to the original question of the thread. T...   Jan 9 2006, 00:20
|- - Lyx   QUOTE (Qjimbo @ Jan 9 2006, 12:20 AM)Firstly ...   Jan 9 2006, 16:17
|- - marcan   QUOTE (Lyx @ Jan 9 2006, 07:17 AM)QUOTE (Qjim...   Jan 9 2006, 17:59
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Lyx @ Jan 9 2006, 07:17 AM)This thread...   Jan 10 2006, 00:38
|- - Garf   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 10 2006, 01:38 AM)We...   Jan 10 2006, 12:42
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 10 2006, 03:42 AM)QUOTE (Wo...   Jan 10 2006, 23:41
- - CSMR   Somehow this question brings out all the know-alls...   Jan 9 2006, 01:52
- - AndyH-ha   The Sampling Theorem says that signals containing ...   Jan 9 2006, 08:28
|- - bug80   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jan 9 2006, 09:28 AM)T...   Jan 9 2006, 10:19
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jan 8 2006, 11:28 PM)T...   Jan 10 2006, 00:41
- - AndyH-ha   My immediately available source is Principles of D...   Jan 9 2006, 18:02
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jan 9 2006, 06:02 PM)o...   Jan 9 2006, 18:30
- - stephanV   @crimsontide: You can never prove a negative. The...   Mar 13 2006, 17:49
|- - crimsontide   QUOTE (stephanV @ Mar 13 2006, 10:49 AM)@crim...   Mar 13 2006, 18:32
- - harlekeyn   16bit means 2^16 = 65536 possible values for each ...   Mar 19 2006, 06:58
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (harlekeyn @ Mar 19 2006, 07:58 AM)If y...   Mar 19 2006, 22:07
|- - crimsontide   Well I agree with what Tristan said For example ...   Mar 20 2006, 11:03
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (crimsontide @ Mar 20 2006, 02:03 AM)I ...   Mar 20 2006, 21:19
- - harlekeyn   WHEN COMPARING digital audio to digital photograph...   Apr 4 2006, 16:48
- - benski   With somewhat expensive studio equipment (RME Hamm...   Apr 4 2006, 16:56
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