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New DRM Schemes Threten Ability To Back Up Audio
OmniCbex
post Dec 5 2005, 09:34
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As soon as I buy a CD, I usually back up my CD in raw PCM format on my HD so I can just play my music through my PC without risking damage to the CD. I recently bought "Foo Fighters - In Your Honor" at a local store, unknowing that it had Sunncomm's Anti-Copy technology on the disc. After a few frustrating days of trying to copy the disc onto my HD, I finally found a way around it. I look back at the experiance and wonder if these new DRM schemes were really nessissary for copy prevention- especially since people just figure out ways around them, anyway. This new wave of DRM must also be frustrating to a casual user, as well, when they try to play their CDs on a PC. What does everyone else in the audiophile community think, and what possible outcomes can be expected?


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Defsac
post Dec 5 2005, 10:28
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I personally dislike DRM. If you go to whatever file sharing technology the kids are using these days and search for a CD with copy protection, you'll find the tracks there. No DRM technology no matter how effective can remove the analog hole. The analog hole is the weakness inherent in any DRM system where the music must eventually be converted to analog so it can be listened to.

People would record the music coming out of speakers with microphones and share that if it came to that. P2P users aren't concerned greatly about quality as a general rule. DRM affects people like most HA users who are concerned about the quality of their audio. These are also the people who actually pay for the CD, so effectively copy protection technology is punishing the consumers and not doing anything to stop piracy.

Piracy prosecution using non-DRM methods is analogous to how Police prosecute speeding. If you are speeding and pass a radar trap, you get ticketed. Similarly, if you are sharing music and the RIAA starts downloading from you to get your IP, then gets your ISP to provide personal details, you get prosectued.

Piracy prevention using DRM is like putting in a controller in your car that prevents you going over a certain speed in certain areas. If car manufacturers tried this people would be up in arms. DRM only succeeds because people seem to accept because it's information on a computer they have no rights of any kind.

I think the RIAA is entitled to protect it's property by prosecuting people sharing their music, but DRM is taking this protection one step two far.

This post has been edited by Defsac: Dec 5 2005, 11:01
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OmniCbex
post Dec 5 2005, 11:03
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When I first got the CD in question and descovered that I couldn't rip it normally, I knew that I could rig up any CD player to the aux connection on my sound card. While it wouldn't produce an exact digital replication, it would still produce a quality audio file for my archiving. Defsac, you bring up good points. My problem with P2P is the fact that no one shares good lossless or raw audio. Everyone seems oh so content with MP3 and so-on. I'm not dissing MP3- It is a very good format for mobile and compact situations. But to BACK UP audio, a raw rip of the audio stream on the original CD is desired. These new DRM schemes are stopping people from making LEGAL copies. Now, im not a perfect angel- I barrow my friend's CD's to copy onto my computer, but I do buy a lot of the discs. I see it as: if you like an artist, support them and buy their CD's- and- in order for anything to be pirated, someone has to buy an original copy. Kinda makes sense since I won't even touch peoples burnt CD's because I don't know what app they used to make it. For all I know, they could have used Windows Media Player and down-converted to 128kbps before re-burning the disc from the encoded files.

Kinda funny that Sunncomm put downloadable WMA files at 128kbps on the data section of the disc. Their website claimed that was considered acceptable by the recording industry. I was nearly "up in arms" as you so put it. If any legitamate band came to a record executive with 128kbps WMA's as their masters, the exec would die laughing.

What will come of this? Will we have to constanty struggle with DRM to back up our CD's or will the record companies drop this foolishness and go back to the standards that have been around since the late 70's for audio. Some paranoids think that this will get so out-of-hand that we won't be able to play audio without a fee and the companies will have total control over when, where, and how any media is used. I would definately side with the public over the companies in that situation and gladly share my files.

This post has been edited by OmniCbex: Dec 5 2005, 11:42


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damaki
post Dec 5 2005, 11:34
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Well, I feel the same. I never directly listen to an audio disc, I always rip my CDs to listen to these.
I own several *protected discs* but I have never had to manually circumvent their protections to achieve my rips. Nowadays, I systematically look for any protection thingy on the disc cover. If I were to find it is protected, I would surely ask the cashier if I can bring it back in case of malfunctioning...
That is surely a pity, but I guess we have no choice sad.gif


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[solid]
post Dec 5 2005, 11:42
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QUOTE (OmniCbex @ Dec 5 2005, 11:03 AM)
(...) My problem with P2P is the fact that no one shares good lossless or raw audio.  Everyone seems oh so content with MP3 and so-on. (...)


so untrue rolleyes.gif
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OmniCbex
post Dec 5 2005, 11:51
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QUOTE ([solid)
,Dec 5 2005, 06:42 AM]
QUOTE (OmniCbex @ Dec 5 2005, 11:03 AM)
(...) My problem with P2P is the fact that no one shares good lossless or raw audio.  Everyone seems oh so content with MP3 and so-on. (...)


so untrue rolleyes.gif
*



A serch for "American Idiot" on limewire brought:
264 MP3 files (90 percent either 128 or 192kbps)
13 Mpeg videos
0 WAV
0 FLAC
0 APE
*sigh* It seems either the peers or the program is BIASED

This post has been edited by OmniCbex: Dec 5 2005, 11:54


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beto
post Dec 5 2005, 12:31
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you are searching in the wrong place... tongue.gif


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Triza
post Dec 5 2005, 13:39
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So how do you know that it is truly lossless. I can take a mp3 file and convert it into FLAC and. If you add some noise shaping even aucdtect cannot figure out if it is based on MP3. I buy CD-s because that gives the ultimate quality and because that is the one that is legal. On the top of that pressed CD-s do not rot. So it is a good backup. Sometimes even that one has crap mastering, but what can you do?

Triza

This post has been edited by Triza: Dec 5 2005, 13:41
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Otto42
post Dec 5 2005, 15:42
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QUOTE (Defsac @ Dec 5 2005, 04:28 AM)
No DRM technology no matter how effective can remove the analog hole.
*

I don't know why people keep resorting to the "analog hole". Thus far, no DRM on CD's has been able to resist the "digital hole".

EVERY anti-copy measure that has been put on Audio CD's has been defeated. Digitally too, not just via the analog hole.

QUOTE (OmniChex)
A serch ... on limewire...

I see your problem already. tongue.gif

QUOTE (Triza)
So how do you know that it is truly lossless. I can take a mp3 file and convert it into FLAC and. If you add some noise shaping even aucdtect cannot figure out if it is based on MP3.

Most obvious way would be to run the file through AccurateRip's database. If the CRC's match, it's lossless. Of course, if they don't match, that tells you nothing as AccurateRip's database is not complete by any means.


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OmniCbex
post Dec 5 2005, 20:15
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QUOTE (Otto42 @ Dec 5 2005, 10:42 AM)
I don't know why people keep resorting to the "analog hole". Thus far, no DRM on CD's has been able to resist the "digital hole".

EVERY anti-copy measure that has been put on Audio CD's has been defeated. Digitally too, not just via the analog hole.


After a few days of research, I found out that Sunncomm just installs a bogus driver on your system when the CD is inserted. After deleting the driver rips worked fine. You can also turn off autorun- or just put the disc in as the PC boots up (before windows loads) and rips work fine. About four or five other companies use similar methods that are just as easy to get around- digitally.

I used two command lines to fix my problem:
net stop sbcphid
del %systemroot%\system32\drivers\sbcphid.sys

Im sure these fixes had been all over the net before I even needed them a few weeks ago. If it works, it can be defeated. DVD was an 'uncrackable' format until someone hacked a player or DVD playing software for all the decrypting algorithims.

Im sure the record execs are just sitting around a meeting room lisining to another company try to sell them a 'better' DRM scheme, one thats 'perfect' and 'uncrackable' and so forth. Why do they waste money on this? Even HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray will undoubtably fall the same way DVD did. If companies really wanted to stop piracy, they would take all the money from DRM and support the RIAA more.

This post has been edited by OmniCbex: Dec 5 2005, 20:36


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GeSomeone
post Dec 5 2005, 20:30
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QUOTE (OmniCbex @ Dec 5 2005, 09:15 PM)
You can also turn off autorun- or just put the disc in as the PC boots up (before windows loads) and rips work fine.
*

holding the shift key during loading turns off autorun temporary lalala.gif

IMO everybody should turn off autorun dry.gif
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JeanLuc
post Dec 5 2005, 20:33
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QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 12:39 PM)
On the top of that pressed CD-s do not rot.


I would not bet my money on that ...


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Shade[ST]
post Dec 5 2005, 21:36
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QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 06:39 AM)
So how do you know that it is truly lossless. I can take a mp3 file and convert it into FLAC and. If you add some noise shaping even aucdtect cannot figure out if it is based on MP3. I buy CD-s because that gives the ultimate quality and because that is the one that is legal. On the top of that pressed CD-s do not rot. So it is a good backup. Sometimes even that one has crap mastering, but what can you do?

Triza
*

If you buy a pressed CD, why not save the move and physical medium (thus reducing pollution causes) and buy the flac files online?

Your flacs on a hard drive will last WAY longer than a cd, be it only from their uv-unresistant status... and plastic form.
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Triza
post Dec 5 2005, 23:06
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QUOTE (JeanLuc @ Dec 5 2005, 11:33 AM)
QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 12:39 PM)
On the top of that pressed CD-s do not rot.


I would not bet my money on that ...
*



Yes, burning means that you have to have somewhat unstable chemical that changes when hit with a bit of a energy. Pressed CD-s made completely differently, where this problem does not arise, but you know I bet.

Triza
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Triza
post Dec 5 2005, 23:08
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QUOTE (Shade[ST] @ Dec 5 2005, 12:36 PM)
QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 06:39 AM)
So how do you know that it is truly lossless. I can take a mp3 file and convert it into FLAC and. If you add some noise shaping even aucdtect cannot figure out if it is based on MP3. I buy CD-s because that gives the ultimate quality and because that is the one that is legal. On the top of that pressed CD-s do not rot. So it is a good backup. Sometimes even that one has crap mastering, but what can you do?

Triza
*

If you buy a pressed CD, why not save the move and physical medium (thus reducing pollution causes) and buy the flac files online?

Your flacs on a hard drive will last WAY longer than a cd, be it only from their uv-unresistant status... and plastic form.
*



Shade,

Sort of music I buy, some are rare are surely not available on FLAC format. So your points is moot.

Triza
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Triza
post Dec 5 2005, 23:13
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Besides after a Electromagnetic Pulse Bomb in your area, you can kiss goodby to your HD :-) Just a joke. Not very likely.

Besides just why do you think HD-s are more green than CD-s?
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quackalist
post Dec 6 2005, 01:00
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QUOTE (JeanLuc @ Dec 5 2005, 11:33 AM)
QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 12:39 PM)
On the top of that pressed CD-s do not rot.


I would not bet my money on that ...
*



Nor would I ,as I have at least 4 CD's that have rot unsure.gif

I also see more lossless rips on p2p now which I assume is a function of faster broadband speeds. Why not have quality as you can now download more then one can possibly listen to. ohmy.gif
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chelgrian
post Dec 6 2005, 01:09
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QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 11:06 PM)
Yes, burning means that you have to have somewhat unstable chemical that changes when hit with a bit of a energy. Pressed CD-s made completely differently, where this problem does not arise, but you know I bet.


Normally pressed CDs won't rot however if there are imperfections in the pressing air can get at the metalic substrate and cause oxidisation and therefore galloping rot.

This can also happen due to the plastic degrading although that is rarer, it al depends on the thickness and quality of the plastic
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QHOBBES 2.0
post Dec 6 2005, 01:27
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QUOTE (OmniCbex @ Dec 5 2005, 03:51 AM)
A serch for "American Idiot" on limewire brought:
264 MP3 files (90 percent either 128 or 192kbps)
13 Mpeg videos
0 WAV
0 FLAC
0 APE
*sigh*  It seems either the peers or the program is BIASED

sick.gif on limewire, the best way to stop the production of drmed music is to not buy it, american idiot is not drmed so go buy the album.
and in the event that music is drmed and you still want it, don't buy it. just go ******** it.


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pepoluan
post Dec 6 2005, 01:36
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QUOTE (chelgrian @ Dec 6 2005, 07:09 AM)
QUOTE (Triza @ Dec 5 2005, 11:06 PM)
Yes, burning means that you have to have somewhat unstable chemical that changes when hit with a bit of a energy. Pressed CD-s made completely differently, where this problem does not arise, but you know I bet.


Normally pressed CDs won't rot however if there are imperfections in the pressing air can get at the metalic substrate and cause oxidisation and therefore galloping rot.

This can also happen due to the plastic degrading although that is rarer, it al depends on the thickness and quality of the plastic
*



My city has a very humid air so CD's not regularly wiped will have fungi blink.gif

Strangely, though, burned CD's are more fungi-resistant (in my experience)... go figure... tongue.gif


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OmniCbex
post Dec 6 2005, 02:35
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Woah, this is going off on a tangent! If a CD has been badly pressed- well- that is why we use HD's and CD's in conjunction. If your discs get damaged or degrade overtime, you can always make new copies from your HD. Likewise, if your HD fails, you have like-new CD's that you've stored away to re-build your archives on another HD. We live in a more and more digital world where more and more of our lives are on digital storage- back up or else! dry.gif

Back on subject, It seems that there is another forum here that discusses Sony / First4Internet's DRM scheme. It acts like rootkit malware that hides itself on your system. Problem is that virus coders can piggyback the system to hide viruses, too. The DRM also hides items in the registry. The discs have no warning labels and provide no way of un-installing the DRM. This is an example of DRM going way out-of-hand. A pox on Sony for even allowing this to happen. mad.gif

The more I read about these DRM, the more angry I become at the recoding industry. Why do audio enthuseists have to suffer so little Jessie can't make her WMP copy of Preppy Poppy Poo for friend, little Katie? These are the only copies that will be thwarted- ones made by people too ignorant to know how to bypass them. headbang.gif

This post has been edited by OmniCbex: Dec 6 2005, 03:03


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smz
post Dec 6 2005, 03:06
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Sorry if I'm taking the "tangent route", but I want to share my experience with you:

I have old EMI CDs (Pink Floyd, David Bowie, etc...) where the black ink used to stamp the CD litterally CORRODED the aluminum layer of the CD.

Cheers!


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