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Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test
NoXFeR
post Nov 20 2005, 19:47
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From: Trondheim, NO
Member No.: 8142



I thought it may be a good idea to devote a topic to this.


Suggestion:

If people can post their bitrates like this (in addition to their analysis)

{bitrate1, bitrate2, ... , bitraten}

I may combine all the bitrates easily and make a combined analysis which will be more accurate.


Edit: Added suggestion

Edit 2: If the ones who have created excel sheets for bitrates, it would be great to have access to the files.

This post has been edited by NoXFeR: Nov 20 2005, 20:06
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NoXFeR
post Nov 20 2005, 19:51
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Joined: 3-August 03
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I will be using these samples in all my bitrate tests.

CODE

bol Silver Sun 1 120
bol Silver Sun 2 111
bol Silver Sun 3 122
bol Silver Sun 4 119
bol Silver Sun 5 134
bol Silver Sun 6 126
bol Silver Sun 7 116
bol Silver Sun 8 118
bol Silver Sun 9 108
Dream Theater Images and Words 1 129
Dream Theater Images and Words 2 132
Dream Theater Images and Words 3 130
Dream Theater Images and Words 4 127
Dream Theater Images and Words 5 133
Dream Theater Images and Words 6 131
Dream Theater Images and Words 7 117
Dream Theater Images and Words 8 132
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 1 130
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 2 133
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 3 130
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 4 119
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 5 129
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 6 133
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 7 125
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 8 133
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 9 134
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 10 130
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 11 132
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 12 126
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 1 114
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 2 122
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 3 120
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 4 117
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 5 119
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 6 116
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 7 120
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 8 117
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 9 115
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 10 118
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 11 120
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 12 113
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 13 122
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 14 119
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 15 116
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 16 118
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 17 118
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 18 117
Howard Shore The Two Towers 1 126
Howard Shore The Two Towers 2 115
Howard Shore The Two Towers 3 122
Howard Shore The Two Towers 4 113
Howard Shore The Two Towers 5 120
Howard Shore The Two Towers 6 115
Howard Shore The Two Towers 7 123
Howard Shore The Two Towers 8 112
Howard Shore The Two Towers 9 118
Howard Shore The Two Towers 10 108
Howard Shore The Two Towers 11 112
Howard Shore The Two Towers 12 126
Howard Shore The Two Towers 13 117
Howard Shore The Two Towers 14 116
Howard Shore The Two Towers 15 117
Howard Shore The Two Towers 16 127
Howard Shore The Two Towers 17 123
Howard Shore The Two Towers 18 124
Howard Shore The Two Towers 19 121
Howard Shore The Return of the King 1 118
Howard Shore The Return of the King 2 118
Howard Shore The Return of the King 3 126
Howard Shore The Return of the King 4 125
Howard Shore The Return of the King 5 115
Howard Shore The Return of the King 6 128
Howard Shore The Return of the King 7 121
Howard Shore The Return of the King 8 114
Howard Shore The Return of the King 9 116
Howard Shore The Return of the King 10 121
Howard Shore The Return of the King 11 130
Howard Shore The Return of the King 12 130
Howard Shore The Return of the King 13 122
Howard Shore The Return of the King 14 116
Howard Shore The Return of the King 15 120
Howard Shore The Return of the King 16 117
Howard Shore The Return of the King 17 116
Howard Shore The Return of the King 18 113
Howard Shore The Return of the King 19 117
Schtimm Featuring... 1 107
Schtimm Featuring... 2 117
Schtimm Featuring... 3 123
Schtimm Featuring... 4 113
Schtimm Featuring... 5 132
Schtimm Featuring... 6 114
Schtimm Featuring... 7 93
Schtimm Featuring... 8 120
Schtimm Featuring... 9 118
Schtimm Featuring... 10 126
Schtimm Featuring... 11 140
Schtimm Featuring... 12 120
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 1 120
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 2 119
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 3 109
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 4 136
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 5 125
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 6 120
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 7 145
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 8 126
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 9 125
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 10 122
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 11 123
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 1 120
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 2 125
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 3 128
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 4 134
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 5 138
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 6 128
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 7 138
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 8 116
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 9 128
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 10 124
VA That's Jazz CD 1 1 133
VA That's Jazz CD 1 2 145
VA That's Jazz CD 1 3 125
VA That's Jazz CD 1 4 136
VA That's Jazz CD 1 5 132
VA That's Jazz CD 1 6 106
VA That's Jazz CD 1 7 97
VA That's Jazz CD 1 8 124
VA That's Jazz CD 1 9 138
VA That's Jazz CD 1 10 129
VA That's Jazz CD 1 11 120
VA That's Jazz CD 1 12 145
VA That's Jazz CD 1 13 125
VA That's Jazz CD 1 14 117
VA That's Jazz CD 1 15 143
VA That's Jazz CD 1 16 121
VA That's Jazz CD 1 17 141
VA That's Jazz CD 2 1 137
VA That's Jazz CD 2 2 97
VA That's Jazz CD 2 3 119
VA That's Jazz CD 2 4 127
VA That's Jazz CD 2 5 111
VA That's Jazz CD 2 6 133
VA That's Jazz CD 2 7 125
VA That's Jazz CD 2 8 101
VA That's Jazz CD 2 9 119
VA That's Jazz CD 2 10 122
VA That's Jazz CD 2 11 111
VA That's Jazz CD 2 12 89
VA That's Jazz CD 2 13 90
VA That's Jazz CD 2 14 75
VA That's Jazz CD 2 15 79
VA That's Jazz CD 2 16 134
VA That's Jazz CD 2 17 128
VA That's Jazz CD 2 18 121
VA That's Jazz CD 2 19 86
VA That's Jazz CD 2 20 95
VA That's Jazz CD 2 21 119
VA That's Jazz CD 2 22 110
VA That's Jazz CD 2 23 109




bitrates

{120, 111, 122, 119, 134, 126, 116, 118, 108, 129, 132, 130, 127, 133, 131, 117, 132, 130, 133, 130, 119, 129, 133, 125, 133, 134, 130, 132, 126, 114, 122, 120, 117, 119, 116, 120, 117, 115, 118, 120, 113, 122, 119, 116, 118, 118, 117, 126, 115, 122, 113, 120, 115, 123, 112, 118, 108, 112, 126, 117, 116, 117, 127, 123, 124, 121, 118, 118, 126, 125, 115, 128, 121, 114, 116, 121, 130, 130, 122, 116, 120, 117, 116, 113, 117, 107, 117, 123, 113, 132, 114, 93, 120, 118, 126, 140, 120, 120, 119, 109, 136, 125, 120, 145, 126, 125, 122, 123, 120, 125, 128, 134, 138, 128, 138, 116, 128, 124, 133, 145, 125, 136, 132, 106, 97, 124, 138, 129, 120, 145, 125, 117, 143, 121, 141, 137, 97, 119, 127, 111, 133, 125, 101, 119, 122, 111, 89, 90, 75, 79, 134, 128, 121, 86, 95, 119, 110, 109}



bol - Silver Sun: Experimental Jazz
Dream Theater: Progressive rock/metal
Schtimm: Jazz with some rock elements ans some balads
LotR soundtrack: classical
That's Jazz: Jazz

Results for Vorbis q 4:

Mean: 120.9 kbps
Median 120.5 kbps
Standard Deviation: 11.5 kbps
Sample Range: 70 kbps
Mean Deviation: 8.2 kbps
Quartile Deviation: 6.0 kbps

Quartiles: 1:116.0, 2: 120.5, 3: 128.0

Student-t 0.95 confidence interval [119.1, 122.7]
Student-t 0.99 confidence interval [118.5, 123.3]

Student-t two-sided hypothesis test vs. 128 kbps:
P-value: 1.30*10^(-12)


Preliminary conclusion: q 4 is not appropriate.

This post has been edited by NoXFeR: Nov 20 2005, 22:09
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guruboolez
post Nov 20 2005, 21:38
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IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT WMA VBR BITRATE

I'm currently encoding different tracks, and it reminds me issues I've noticed during my summer listening tests. WMA bitrate is often wrong.
- foobar2000 0.8 component was never trustable. With VBR, results are amazingly distorted
- MrQuestionMan 0.71 (I downloaded the latest release from the server last hour) is much better, but sometimes wrong. I discovered something new: the estimated bitrate never goes below 88 kbps and never beyond 176 kbps (exactly the double: co´ncidence?)

The full table of complete tracks (I haven't reported all value for MrQM, because I have to do it by hand - but I've uploaded the html files generated by the app.)

CODE

TRACK LENGTH SIZE BITRATE BITRATE BITRATE
WMA 50 hand fb2k MQM0.71

A01... 178 sec. 3328447 149,6 184 147
A02... 347 sec. 6400283 147,6 161 146
A03... 417 sec. 11802033 226,4 250 175
A04... 250 sec. 5699455 182,4 185 175
A05... 155 sec. 1940941 100,2 149 99
E01... 1130 sec. 11364861 80,5 186 88
E02... 406 sec. 7154839 141,0 181 139
E03... 41 sec. 826969 161,4 158 158
E04... 850 sec. 10838415 102,0 194 101
E05... 314 sec. 6000541 152,9 180 151
E06... 700 sec. 11798675 134,8 163 133
E07... 664 sec. 8071831 97,3 122 96
E08... 590 sec. 9719365 131,8 147 130
E09... 374 sec. 6333041 135,5 159 134
E10... 350 sec. 6552955 149,8 160 148
E11... 1244 sec. 28247721 181,7 233 176
E12... 775 sec. 11143431 115,0 156
E13... 408 sec. 7523027 147,5 174
E14... 493 sec. 8578517 139,2 174
E15... 69 sec. 1141381 132,3 134
E16... 86 sec. 1725145 160,5 166
E17... 222 sec. 4742973 170,9 191
E18... 141 sec. 2547035 144,5 158
E19... 2014 sec. 27563831 109,5 174
E20... 146 sec. 1159649 63,5 76 88
E21... 630 sec. 9948515 126,3 176
E22... 747 sec. 15696179 168,1 178
E23... 385 sec. 5942451 123,5 150
E24... 444 sec. 5911261 106,5 152
E25... 464 sec. 9269857 159,8 180
E26... 156 sec. 2874869 147,4 165
E27... 212 sec. 3454303 130,4 160 128
E28... 507 sec. 11474623 181,1 191 175
E29... 391 sec. 6023299 123,2 174 122
E30... 703 sec. 14465747 164,6 189
E31... 157 sec. 2982629 152,0 160
E32... 181 sec. 2740269 121,1 145
E33... 195 sec. 3328515 136,6 148
E34... 161 sec. 2789579 138,6 150
E35... 162 sec. 2668353 131,8 138
E36... 189 sec. 3472171 147,0 163
E37... 286 sec. 4074219 114,0 129
E38... 635 sec. 10842041 136,6 161
E39... 311 sec. 5466219 140,6 169
E40... 827 sec. 13581713 131,4 155
E41... 237 sec. 3288269 111,0 131
E42... 124 sec. 1604067 103,5 124
E43... 328 sec. 5856917 142,9 169
E44... 174 sec. 2699831 124,1 140
E45... 220 sec. 3827005 139,2 139
E46... 185 sec. 3490115 150,9 172
E47... 29 sec. 579971 160,0 161
E48... 333 sec. 5515697 132,5 157
E49... 69 sec. 1473637 170,9 173
E50... 44 sec. 930251 169,1 172
E51... 328 sec. 6611233 161,2 165
E52... 88 sec. 1671277 151,9 157
E53... 286 sec. 5982465 167,3 176
E54... 138 sec. 2955613 171,3 178
E55... 206 sec. 3970629 154,2 158
E56... 1163 sec. 24417423 168,0 184
E57... 100 sec. 2147261 171,8 181
E58... 71 sec. 1451195 163,5 163
E59... 175 sec. 3090461 141,3 145
E60... 157 sec. 3301423 168,2 177
S01... 273 sec. 4249273 124,5 137
S02... 681 sec. 11861459 139,3 184
S03... 1770 sec. 26525665 119,9 175
S04... 277 sec. 4621963 133,5 148
S05... 353 sec. 6957063 157,7 187
S06... 440 sec. 5318565 96,7 137
S07... 240 sec. 4002195 133,4 159
S08... 237 sec. 4347909 146,8 169
S09... 298 sec. 4150597 111,4 159
S10... 105 sec. 1734201 132,1 158
S11... 133 sec. 1815137 109,2 114
S12... 189 sec. 2816631 119,2 123
S13... 100 sec. 1635401 130,8 133
S14... 211 sec. 3844929 145,8 149
S15... 150 sec. 2713205 144,7 165
S16... 165 sec. 1985885 96,3 102
S17... 288 sec. 6220447 172,8 183
S18... 125 sec. 2048585 131,1 140
S19... 481 sec. 6903699 114,8 160
S20... 264 sec. 4648847 140,9 154
S21... 229 sec. 4522987 158,0 164
S22... 531 sec. 7887205 118,8 146
S23... 508 sec. 9503517 149,7 176
S24... 22 sec. 324009 117,8 123
S25... 546 sec. 7810939 114,4 144
S26... 615 sec. 6711161 87,3 138
S27... 1842 sec. 20091779 87,3 151
S28... 106 sec. 1204389 90,9 98
S29... 440 sec. 5673275 103,2 137
S30... 823 sec. 7668367 74,5 175 88
S31... 823 sec. 7668367 74,5 175 88
S32... 214 sec. 3041231 113,7 156
S33... 312 sec. 5430299 139,2 166
S34... 470 sec. 6800385 115,8 146
S35... 952 sec. 13496903 113,4 159
S36... 275 sec. 5079935 147,8 156
S37... 140 sec. 2600915 148,6 164
S38... 229 sec. 5151591 180,0 185
S39... 185 sec. 2915395 126,1 136
S40... 32 sec. 835913 209,0 204 175
S41... 163 sec. 3085923 151,5 179
S42... 533 sec. 8587653 128,9 151
S43... 196 sec. 4163659 169,9 170
S44... 87 sec. 1110023 102,1 114
S45... 129 sec. 1393057 86,4 133
S46... 373 sec. 4716637 101,2 185
S47... 594 sec. 8659737 116,6 184
S48... 612 sec. 10383973 135,7 175
S49... 547 sec. 8053399 117,8 154
S50... 244 sec. 3723827 122,1 136
S51... 208 sec. 4513927 173,6 179
S52... 152 sec. 2717699 143,0 161
S53... 859 sec. 8422827 78,4 144 88
S54... 427 sec. 4164579 78,0 127 88
S55... 843 sec. 8234183 78,1 133 88
V01... 422 sec. 8142699 154,4 173
V02... 290 sec. 6431481 177,4 188
V03... 423 sec. 2934307 55,5 72
V04... 218 sec. 4891127 179,5 193
V05... 313 sec. 6225037 159,1 184
V06... 160 sec. 3736965 186,8 187
V07... 705 sec. 15435595 175,2 185
V08... 2073 sec. 25323553 97,7 219
V09... 168 sec. 3328403 158,5 162
V10... 284 sec. 5546931 156,3 171
V11... 1124 sec. 20573831 146,4 180
V12... 204 sec. 3530601 138,5 145
V13... 342 sec. 6876199 160,8 188
V14... 417 sec. 8928433 171,3 176
V15... 86 sec. 1401869 130,4 140
V16... 376 sec. 6130995 130,4 151
V17... 21 sec. 265639 101,2 118
V18... 612 sec. 11915063 155,8 174
V19... 570 sec. 12287561 172,5 179
V20... 353 sec. 6669707 151,2 184
V21... 79 sec. 1352447 137,0 171
V22... 215 sec. 4042505 150,4 171
V23... 657 sec. 9984543 121,6 149
V24... 430 sec. 8533365 158,8 177
V25... 218 sec. 4693567 172,2 171
V26... 233 sec. 3804607 130,6 147
V27... 106 sec. 2290969 172,9 170
V28... 92 sec. 1644349 143,0 164
V29... 200 sec. 4410625 176,4 178
V30... 326 sec. 5870379 144,1 151

MEAN 137,2 161,0 129
perso fb2k MQM

=> foobar2000 "copy command" can't be used (difference= +24 kbps!)
=> the average bitrate I computed (137,2) is a simple mean of the 150 values; MrQM compute the bitrate differently and it takes the length into consideration [I avoid this, it distorts the representativity of the gallery; see for more information about how the gallery was builded].


The bitrate corresponds to WMA 9.1 [Std] VBR 50 mode.
1 Kb = 1000 bits

- MrQuestionMan html table - alphabetical
- MrQuestionMan html table - sorted by bitrate
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NoXFeR
post Nov 20 2005, 22:06
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Ok... I made estimates for lame 3.97b1 with -V 5 --vbr-new

CODE

bol Silver Sun 1 120 119
bol Silver Sun 2 111 110
bol Silver Sun 3 122 125
bol Silver Sun 4 119 133
bol Silver Sun 5 134 146
bol Silver Sun 6 126 126
bol Silver Sun 7 116 119
bol Silver Sun 8 118 128
bol Silver Sun 9 108 102
Dream Theater Images and Words 1 129 142
Dream Theater Images and Words 2 132 144
Dream Theater Images and Words 3 130 140
Dream Theater Images and Words 4 127 139
Dream Theater Images and Words 5 133 134
Dream Theater Images and Words 6 131 138
Dream Theater Images and Words 7 117 130
Dream Theater Images and Words 8 132 139
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 1 130 120
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 2 133 144
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 3 130 137
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 4 119 110
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 5 129 139
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 6 133 145
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 7 125 136
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 8 133 146
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 9 134 148
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 10 130 144
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 11 132 140
Dream Theater Scenes from a Memory 12 126 140
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 1 114 133
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 2 122 122
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 3 120 132
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 4 117 139
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 5 119 139
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 6 116 136
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 7 120 143
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 8 117 132
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 9 115 140
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 10 118 130
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 11 120 133
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 12 113 137
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 13 122 147
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 14 119 136
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 15 116 131
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 16 118 136
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 17 118 131
Howard Shore Fellowship of the Ring 18 117 123
Howard Shore The Two Towers 1 126 142
Howard Shore The Two Towers 2 115 115
Howard Shore The Two Towers 3 122 137
Howard Shore The Two Towers 4 113 126
Howard Shore The Two Towers 5 120 140
Howard Shore The Two Towers 6 115 123
Howard Shore The Two Towers 7 123 134
Howard Shore The Two Towers 8 112 123
Howard Shore The Two Towers 9 118 137
Howard Shore The Two Towers 10 108 129
Howard Shore The Two Towers 11 112 121
Howard Shore The Two Towers 12 126 144
Howard Shore The Two Towers 13 117 124
Howard Shore The Two Towers 14 116 120
Howard Shore The Two Towers 15 117 138
Howard Shore The Two Towers 16 127 150
Howard Shore The Two Towers 17 123 146
Howard Shore The Two Towers 18 124 133
Howard Shore The Two Towers 19 121 133
Howard Shore The Return of the King 1 118 126
Howard Shore The Return of the King 2 118 122
Howard Shore The Return of the King 3 126 141
Howard Shore The Return of the King 4 125 141
Howard Shore The Return of the King 5 115 122
Howard Shore The Return of the King 6 128 145
Howard Shore The Return of the King 7 121 129
Howard Shore The Return of the King 8 114 121
Howard Shore The Return of the King 9 116 119
Howard Shore The Return of the King 10 121 136
Howard Shore The Return of the King 11 130 143
Howard Shore The Return of the King 12 130 142
Howard Shore The Return of the King 13 122 133
Howard Shore The Return of the King 14 116 123
Howard Shore The Return of the King 15 120 134
Howard Shore The Return of the King 16 117 142
Howard Shore The Return of the King 17 116 121
Howard Shore The Return of the King 18 113 121
Howard Shore The Return of the King 19 117 111
Schtimm Featuring... 1 107 102
Schtimm Featuring... 2 117 117
Schtimm Featuring... 3 123 133
Schtimm Featuring... 4 113 107
Schtimm Featuring... 5 132 134
Schtimm Featuring... 6 114 126
Schtimm Featuring... 7 93 97
Schtimm Featuring... 8 120 140
Schtimm Featuring... 9 118 120
Schtimm Featuring... 10 126 138
Schtimm Featuring... 11 140 144
Schtimm Featuring... 12 120 127
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 1 120 132
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 2 119 121
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 3 109 120
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 4 136 150
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 5 125 142
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 6 120 161
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 7 145 139
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 8 126 147
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 9 125 134
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 10 122 132
Schtimm plays Mrakoslav Vragosh 11 123 130
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 1 120 134
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 2 125 151
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 3 128 133
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 4 134 148
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 5 138 159
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 6 128 126
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 7 138 142
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 8 116 131
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 9 128 149
Schtimm The Alcoholovefi Collection 10 124 145
VA That's Jazz CD 1 1 133 150
VA That's Jazz CD 1 2 145 153
VA That's Jazz CD 1 3 125 155
VA That's Jazz CD 1 4 136 147
VA That's Jazz CD 1 5 132 153
VA That's Jazz CD 1 6 106 136
VA That's Jazz CD 1 7 97 86
VA That's Jazz CD 1 8 124 128
VA That's Jazz CD 1 9 138 142
VA That's Jazz CD 1 10 129 134
VA That's Jazz CD 1 11 120 126
VA That's Jazz CD 1 12 145 148
VA That's Jazz CD 1 13 125 147
VA That's Jazz CD 1 14 117 151
VA That's Jazz CD 1 15 143 161
VA That's Jazz CD 1 16 121 118
VA That's Jazz CD 1 17 141 158
VA That's Jazz CD 2 1 137 151
VA That's Jazz CD 2 2 97 85
VA That's Jazz CD 2 3 119 141
VA That's Jazz CD 2 4 127 155
VA That's Jazz CD 2 5 111 137
VA That's Jazz CD 2 6 133 150
VA That's Jazz CD 2 7 125 154
VA That's Jazz CD 2 8 101 86
VA That's Jazz CD 2 9 119 126
VA That's Jazz CD 2 10 122 152
VA That's Jazz CD 2 11 111 125
VA That's Jazz CD 2 12 89 76
VA That's Jazz CD 2 13 90 85
VA That's Jazz CD 2 14 75 80
VA That's Jazz CD 2 15 79 65
VA That's Jazz CD 2 16 134 149
VA That's Jazz CD 2 17 128 136
VA That's Jazz CD 2 18 121 136
VA That's Jazz CD 2 19 86 81
VA That's Jazz CD 2 20 95 84
VA That's Jazz CD 2 21 119 139
VA That's Jazz CD 2 22 110 129
VA That's Jazz CD 2 23 109 109


bitrates

{119, 110, 125, 133, 146, 126, 119, 128, 102, 142, 144, 140, 139, 134, 138, 130, 139, 120, 144, 137, 110, 139, 145, 136, 146, 148, 144, 140, 140, 133, 122, 132, 139, 139, 136, 143, 132, 140, 130, 133, 137, 147, 136, 131, 136, 131, 123, 142, 115, 137, 126, 140, 123, 134, 123, 137, 129, 121, 144, 124, 120, 138, 150, 146, 133, 133, 126, 122, 141, 141, 122, 145, 129, 121, 119, 136, 143, 142, 133, 123, 134, 142, 121, 121, 111, 102, 117, 133, 107, 134, 126, 97, 140, 120, 138, 144, 127, 132, 121, 120, 150, 142, 161, 139, 147, 134, 132, 130, 134, 151, 133, 148, 159, 126, 142, 131, 149, 145, 150, 153, 155, 147, 153, 136, 86, 128, 142, 134, 126, 148, 147, 151, 161, 118, 158, 151, 85, 141, 155, 137, 150, 154, 86, 126, 152, 125, 76, 85, 80, 65, 149, 136, 136, 81, 84, 139, 129, 109}

Analysis:

Track by track analysis:

Mean: 131.7 kbps
Median: 134 kbps
Quartiles: 1: 124, 2: 134, 3: 142
Range: 96 kbps (!!)
Standard Deviation: 17.4 kbps
Mean Deviation: 12.6 kbps
Quartile Deviation: 9 kbps

Student-t 0.95 confidence interval [128.9, 134.4]

Student-t 0.99 confidence interval [128.1, 135.3]

Student-t two-sided hypothesis test vs. 128 kbps:
P-value: 0.00879



Conclusion: More samples are needed (imo) to conclude this, but it's as close as we can come anyhow.


Edit: THe latter of the two bitrates are the lame bitrates.

This post has been edited by NoXFeR: Nov 20 2005, 22:11
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NoXFeR
post Nov 20 2005, 22:14
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I am going to do a similar analysis with gurubolez' data for WMA.

(On a side note, how do you configure foobar2k for WMA, gurubolez?)
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vinnie97
post Nov 20 2005, 22:49
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QUOTE
WMA bitrate is often wrong.

I, too, have noticed this...Dbpoweramp's tooltip is incorrect, as is Foobar 0.83 and the latest Winamp.
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guruboolez
post Nov 20 2005, 22:57
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QUOTE (NoXFeR @ Nov 20 2005, 10:14 PM)
On a side note, how do you configure foobar2k for WMA, gurubolez?)
*

I'm using VU Player to encode my WavPack tracks into WMA VBR. So I can't answer.
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Gambit
post Nov 20 2005, 23:07
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QUOTE (vinnie97 @ Nov 20 2005, 11:49 PM)
QUOTE
WMA bitrate is often wrong.

I, too, have noticed this...Dbpoweramp's tooltip is incorrect, as is Foobar 0.83 and the latest Winamp.
*

This is a common problem of the crappy WMA implementation, where it reports the "Maximum Bitrate" value from the header instead of the actuall average bitrate.


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vinnie97
post Nov 20 2005, 23:34
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Yea, I'd be first in line to blame Microsoft on that, when all the other formats get it right. rolleyes.gif
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NoXFeR
post Nov 21 2005, 02:51
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I believe some kind of tolerance level need to be selected:

Something like [124, 132] is accepted, and the confidence intervals need to have a nonempty intersection with the chosen interval to be appropriate.
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guruboolez
post Nov 21 2005, 03:03
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I don't think that 128 kbps will the targeted bitrate. iTunes AAC and LAME -V5 are both encoding at ~133...135 kbps, and the current Nero encoder also go beyond 128 kbps. Something like [128...138] is more likely I'd say.
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NoXFeR
post Nov 21 2005, 03:10
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I agree, and if that is the targeted bitrate, your test is appropriately an extensive pre-test. However, Sebastian Mares should be the arbitrer.
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JohnV
post Nov 21 2005, 03:17
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We will probably use ABR. We'll have an improved encoder ready for the test, but it's not ready for pure VBR yet.


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NoXFeR
post Nov 21 2005, 03:30
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Stats for gurubolez' data for WMA 50

{55.5, 63.5, 74.5, 74.5, 78., 78.1, 78.4, 80.5, 86.4, 87.3, 87.3, 90.9, 96.3, 96.7, 97.3, 97.7, 100.2, 101.2, 101.2, 102., 102.1, 103.2, 103.5, 106.5, 109.2, 109.5, 111., 111.4, 113.4, 113.7, 114., 114.4, 114.8, 115., 115.8, 116.6, 117.8, 117.8, 118.8, 119.2, 119.9, 121.1, 121.6, 122.1, 123.2, 123.5, 124.1, 124.5, 126.1, 126.3, 128.9, 130.4, 130.4, 130.4, 130.6, 130.8, 131.1, 131.4, 131.8, 131.8, 132.1, 132.3, 132.5, 133.4, 133.5, 134.8, 135.5, 135.7, 136.6, 136.6, 137., 138.5, 138.6, 139.2, 139.2, 139.2, 139.3, 140.6, 140.9, 141., 141.3, 142.9, 143., 143., 144.1, 144.5, 144.7, 145.8, 146.4, 146.8, 147., 147.4, 147.5, 147.6, 147.8, 148.6, 149.6, 149.7, 149.8, 150.4, 150.9, 151.2, 151.5, 151.9, 152., 152.9, 154.2, 154.4, 155.8, 156.3, 157.7, 158., 158.5, 158.8, 159.1, 159.8, 160., 160.5, 160.8, 161.2, 161.4, 163.5, 164.6, 167.3, 168., 168.1, 168.2, 169.1, 169.9, 170.9, 170.9, 171.3, 171.3, 171.8, 172.2, 172.5, 172.8, 172.9, 173.6, 175.2, 176.4, 177.4, 179.5, 180., 181.1, 181.7, 182.4, 186.8, 209., 226.4}


Mean: 137.2
Median: 139.2
Standard Deviation: 29.5
Range: 170.9
Mean Deviation: 23.3
Quartile Deviation: 20.4

Quartiles: 1: 117.8, 2: 139.2, 3: 158.5

0.95 Confidence Interval
[132.5, 142.0]

0.99 Confidence Interval
[130.9, 143.5]
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NoXFeR
post Nov 21 2005, 03:32
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QUOTE (JohnV @ Nov 21 2005, 03:17 AM)
We will probably use ABR. We'll have an improved encoder ready for the test, but it's not ready for pure VBR yet.
*


I suppose there is no point testing bitrates for an ABR option?
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NoXFeR
post Nov 22 2005, 01:44
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Estimate -q 4,25 Vorbis aoTuVb4.51`

Note: I had to drop The Two Towers album, because for some reason my cue-sheet was deleted, and I only have access to my laptop here

{106, 126, 132, 139, 127, 131, 127, 134, 135, 126, 117, 128, 125, 141, 132, 122, 124, 113, 94, 141, 126, 140, 148, 136, 139, 137, 133, 140, 138, 123, 139, 137, 140, 137, 124, 136, 140, 131, 140, 142, 136, 138, 133, 78, 100, 100, 86, 131, 124, 120, 124, 126, 119, 128, 125, 122, 124, 124, 123, 128, 126, 123, 126, 123, 127, 123, 121, 125, 127, 136, 137, 128, 122, 126, 124, 122, 120, 122, 124, 132, 132, 121, 135, 128, 120, 123, 154, 117, 144, 130, 125, 116, 136, 126, 93, 145, 116, 111, 102, 151, 89, 112, 133, 147, 126, 123, 128, 118, 138, 120, 101, 126, 123, 126, 128, 130, 125, 114, 144, 131, 127, 153, 133, 131, 127, 130, 132, 135, 141, 146, 133, 145, 122, 135, 153, 143, 114, 128, 140}


Mean: 127.5
Median: 127.0
Quartiles: 1: 123.0, 2: 127.0, 3: 136.0
Standard Deviation: 12.8
Range: 76
Mean Deviation: 9.12

0.95 Confidence Interval
[125.4, 129.7]

0.99 Confidence Interval
[124.7, 130.4]


If the test is to be made in the range [130, 138], I would suggest upping the -q switch a wee bit more.


I will do one more Vorbis estimate.



Can someone provide iTunes AAC data?

This post has been edited by NoXFeR: Nov 22 2005, 01:45
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guruboolez
post Nov 22 2005, 02:21
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Here's my bitrate table. It contains 150 classical tracks - and only classical. The musical content is not representative of the upcoming testing material and is just a small part of it.
- aoTuV bitrate correspond to beta 4 (which shouldn't have changed with 4.51 at this bitrate).
- I also add aoTuV -q4,25 and LAME --athaa-sensitivity as bonus.
- the bitrate correspond to the real bitrate, not only the audio stream (i.e. the container may slightly increase the value); there are no tags in the file.

http://foobar2000.net/divers/temp/128_bitrate_classical.xls
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ff123
post Nov 22 2005, 15:57
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QUOTE (NoXFeR @ Nov 20 2005, 10:51 AM)
I will be using these samples in all my bitrate tests.
...
bitrates

{120, 111, 122, 119, 134, 126, 116, 118, 108, 129, 132, 130, 127, 133, 131, 117, 132, 130, 133, 130, 119, 129, 133, 125, 133, 134, 130, 132, 126, 114, 122, 120, 117, 119, 116, 120, 117, 115, 118, 120, 113, 122, 119, 116, 118, 118, 117, 126, 115, 122, 113, 120, 115, 123, 112, 118, 108, 112, 126, 117, 116, 117, 127, 123, 124, 121, 118, 118, 126, 125, 115, 128, 121, 114, 116, 121, 130, 130, 122, 116, 120, 117, 116, 113, 117, 107, 117, 123, 113, 132, 114, 93, 120, 118, 126, 140, 120, 120, 119, 109, 136, 125, 120, 145, 126, 125, 122, 123, 120, 125, 128, 134, 138, 128, 138, 116, 128, 124, 133, 145, 125, 136, 132, 106, 97, 124, 138, 129, 120, 145, 125, 117, 143, 121, 141, 137, 97, 119, 127, 111, 133, 125, 101, 119, 122, 111, 89, 90, 75, 79, 134, 128, 121, 86, 95, 119, 110, 109}
...
Preliminary conclusion: q 4 is not appropriate.
*


Here is a histogram of this data:

Attached Image
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ff123
post Nov 22 2005, 16:05
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Making histograms in Excel:

Select Tools -> Add-Ins...
Check Analysis ToolPak

A Data Analysis... entry will be added to the Tools dropdown menu.

Select Data Analysis->Histogram

Create the bins:
It's easier if you sort the data first from lowest to highest.
Select the data, go to Data->Sort and do an ascending sort.
Look at the lowest and highest data, then create a column of bins which cover the lowest and highest data. A reasonable number of bins would be something like 15 to 20, depending on the amount of data you have.

Select the input range of your data

Select the input range of your bins

Click on your spreadsheet where you want the chart to go and select your output range

Check the Chart Output box.

Create your histogram.

This post has been edited by ff123: Nov 22 2005, 16:08
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ff123
post Nov 22 2005, 16:24
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Here is another of Vorbis aoTuVb4 q4.25 using Guru's classical music data:

NoXFeR's data is interesting because it has a large tail on the left. Guru's data has a large tail on the right.

I think what it means is that music selection is making a big difference in the data.

This post has been edited by ff123: Nov 22 2005, 16:26
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guruboolez
post Nov 22 2005, 16:44
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Thanks for the histograms.
I made on my side curves to illustrate the distribution:

http://foobar2000.net/divers/temp/bitratecurve.png

WMA is going very low and very high. LAME also goes very low (and very often too).
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ff123
post Nov 22 2005, 17:16
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There is a web app here:

http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/activities/histogram/

ff123

This post has been edited by ff123: Nov 22 2005, 21:21
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grommet
post Nov 22 2005, 20:01
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I think the "maximum bitrate" (as some call it) that is stored in WMA VBR is intentional and supposed to be used to assist in determining when files need to be transcoded to lower bitrates. Some cheesy WMA capable portables can't usually exceed 160 Kbps WMA without stuttering, for example. (Microsoft set the bar pretty low.) But who knows...
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ff123
post Nov 22 2005, 21:30
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Ok, I updated the web link above, which makes it really easy for anybody to make
histograms. As an example, I took Guru's wma50 data which NoxFeR printed out,
and pasted them into the applet at:

http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/activities/histogram/

The result is the attached gif
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guruboolez
post Nov 24 2005, 00:30
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Advice to all members: if you're ill and under antibiotics, don't try to build a bitrate table or be VERY CAREFUL.

I know why I was so surprised to see WMA close to ~130 kbps with VBR 50: I used VBR 75 pinch.gif
I initially planed to test both VBR 50 and VBR 75, and when I computed the bitrate of what I tested first (137 kbps), I didn't see any reason to test a higher setting. But what I've just noticed is that I started to test VBR 75 and not VBR 50 huh.gif 137 kbps is the average bitrate of VBR 75, not VBR 50 (and classical music).
I'm currently running WMA at VBR 50, but the bitrate will probably fall below 100 kbps. It will surely confirm what I noticed this summer with my 80 and 96 kbps: there's a serious bitrate disparity between classical and "non-classical" music, which is making listening tests a bit harder to set crying.gif
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