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Ripping hidden tracks before index 01, Hardware-based? What to look for?
Thundik81
post Nov 10 2005, 23:42
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With your CD Test :
AOpen CRW3248 : YES
Lite-On SOHW-1673S : NO (rips silence ; but i can't edit read sample offset correction)

This post has been edited by Thundik81: Nov 11 2005, 15:19
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windowshade
post Nov 11 2005, 00:03
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Lite-On DVD-ROM LTD 163 - No (obligingly rips silence)
Plextor 716A - Yes
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fj4
post Nov 11 2005, 00:57
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Tested with Autechre's EP7 which has a 9:44.57 pregap:

Plextor CD-RW: PX-W2410A = YES
Firmware 1.04
EAC detects overread into lead-in & -out
Read offset +98 samples

LiteOn DVD+-RW: SOHW-832S = NO (timing problem; rips silence)
Firmware VCG5G
EAC detects overread into lead-in
Read offset +12 samples
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Synthetic Soul
post Nov 11 2005, 11:14
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Nov 7 2005, 07:56 PM)
I may need to try the Lite-On with a hidden track again to double-check.

QUOTE (fj4 @ Nov 10 2005, 11:57 PM)
LiteOn DVD+-RW: SOHW-832S = NO (timing problem; rips silence)
Firmware VCG5G
EAC detects overread into lead-in
Read offset +12 samples

Confirmed. I tested my SOHW832S (CodeGuys firmware) again with Songs for the Deaf and was just getting red lights all the way so I terminated the rip.


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NRAninja
post Nov 11 2005, 23:43
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I tested another 3 drives. All 3 do the red light /silence thing.

LG GCE-8527B
TOSHIBA SD-M1612
NEC ND-3540A
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Societal Eclipse
post Nov 11 2005, 23:47
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NEC DV-5800A No (Silence)
NEC NR-7800A No (Silence)
SAMSUNG SN-124 Yes! blink.gif

This thread finally spurred me to try the other computers in the house and I discovered my dad's old Dell PIII laptop could rip the hidden track at the beginning of Melotron - Weltfrieden perfectly.

Not only should we keep a running record of what drives can do this we should record which CDs have these tracks in case people might not have even noticed they have them. Everyone I was telling about this when I got excited and finally ripped that track hadn't even heard of such a hidden track. I wonder how many other albums are floating around out there with the owners completely oblivious.


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Rommel
post Nov 12 2005, 02:23
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my drives tested with BoraBora's "hidden_song_test.wav":

Plextor Premium: YES
Plextor PX-712A: YES


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Societal Eclipse
post Nov 12 2005, 05:25
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I forgot to mention that in my quest for some way to rip that hidden track I discovered that our DVD player just spits out an error code as soon as I try rewinding from the start of the first track. dry.gif Is that legitimate behavior or are these tracks actually breaking Redbook? I know my old 5CD Denon carousel will play the track but it was very hard to rewind to the beginning of it because if I went too far it too would choke with an error code. Unfortunately not only that but I had to turn it off and back on before the error was cleared.


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gLH
post Nov 12 2005, 14:21
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BenQ DW1620 - NO (Rips Silence)
Mitsumi CR-4804TE - YES

Tested with Super Furry Animals' Guerilla.
Odd that the newer drive can't handle this while the (much) older one can.
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Pio2001
post Nov 12 2005, 15:28
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QUOTE (Societal Eclipse @ Nov 12 2005, 06:25 AM)
are these tracks actually breaking Redbook?
*


Good question. I think that they don't break Red Book (the gap must be at least 2 seconds long), but the Red Book doesn't force any player to be able to read them. CD players are supposed to start at track 01 index 01.
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jaybeee
post Nov 12 2005, 17:53
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LG GSA-4160B: YES
Read offset: +667 samples


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evereux
post Nov 12 2005, 19:09
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I've updated http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/ so that you can now also catalogue this feature along with the other drive features (along with some other minor visual changes). If you have already submitted your drive features you can edit your submission and include this information.

If anyone has any problems / comments etc feel free to post them here. smile.gif

This post has been edited by evereux: Nov 12 2005, 19:09


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landy
post Nov 14 2005, 00:37
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Drive = HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4120B
Firmware = A111
Rips sound = yes (although the start and end seem a bit abrupt)

if it works with your test cd i wonder why eac fails to detect the track hidden on this cd, i didnt put that much effort in at the time but might see if i can rerip it later.

edit just pulled the cd from my pile of stuff i have to rip and eac detected it fine this time :/ maybe i have updated eac in between the times i tried to rip it. do you have to rip cd's like this as an image as the guide for the test says? i ask because i prefere seperate tracks and gap detection seems awful slow (i dont usually use it but it seems your forced to when ripping images).

This post has been edited by landy: Nov 14 2005, 00:45
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Egor
post Nov 14 2005, 09:25
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Toshiba SD-M2012C: NO.
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gLH
post Nov 17 2005, 01:16
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LG GDR-8163B - NO (Caused EAC to Hang)
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Societal Eclipse
post Nov 17 2005, 05:31
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QUOTE (evereux @ Nov 12 2005, 02:09 PM)
I've updated http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/ so that you can now also catalogue this feature along with the other drive features (along with some other minor visual changes). If you have already submitted your drive features you can edit your submission and include this information.

If anyone has any problems / comments etc feel free to post them here. smile.gif
*


Just a note - I submitted my NEC NR-7800A and I seleted no for overread. EAC reports yes for Lead-In and Nero reports no... I'm not sure which is more accurate so I just went with no. I normally don't have it enabled in my EAC settings.

(edit) Oh and I see that the 7900A entry says yes for lead-in too. The drives are exactly the same as far as I can tell as far as offsets and everything. I guess the overread test for EAC and Nero just don't agree.

This post has been edited by Societal Eclipse: Nov 17 2005, 05:33


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Yakhobian
post Nov 17 2005, 05:43
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Just to add one more to the list.
I can read and extract the hidden tracks before index 01 with my Pioneer DVR-108 drive. Given that the 110 is also in the list, I imagine it's a pretty safe bet that the model in between, the 109, can also do so smile.gif

Edit: Fixed typo

This post has been edited by Yakhobian: Nov 17 2005, 05:43
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fj4
post Nov 17 2005, 06:29
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QUOTE
do you have to rip cd's like this as an image as the guide for the test says? i ask because i prefere seperate tracks and gap detection seems awful slow (i dont usually use it but it seems your forced to when ripping images).

You can either rip as an image or use "Copy Range" and make a track out of the pregap. It seems that the Snap Gap or Snap Track doesn't recognize Track 01 Index 01 so I use the keyboard (arrow keys) on the slider to get to exactly 00:00.00 (if you're anal about bit-perfect/exact timing.)
Slightly offtopic: For me, no single gap detection method will work for all discs, even brand new/unscratched discs can be very slow to detect. Set to Secure gap detection, method B works most of the time, but sometimes it hangs; I can leave it for an hour and it's still on the same track. Try each method if you're having problems, one of them will work eventually.
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Cosmo
post May 30 2006, 04:13
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LG GSA-4167B = Yes
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damir
post May 23 2007, 21:05
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i can confirm that pioneer's dvr-112d can rip pregaps
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Never_Again
post May 24 2007, 01:58
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QUOTE (damir @ May 23 2007, 16:05) *
i can confirm that pioneer's dvr-112d can rip pregaps

I can confirm that as well on my DVR-112D, and that Lite-On LH-20A1P cannot, meaning that the rip is the correct length, but silence.
Funny thing is, Nero CD/DVD Speed reports that the Lite-On can overread both into Lead-In and Lead-Out, and the Pioneer into neither.
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greynol
post May 24 2007, 04:24
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Exactly. My Yamaha can't overread from the lead-in, but it can do HTOA.

Welcome back, BTW.


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rumpel
post Mar 2 2008, 18:13
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QUOTE (Societal Eclipse @ Nov 11 2005, 23:47) *
Not only should we keep a running record of what drives can do this we should record which CDs have these tracks in case people might not have even noticed they have them.

There is a pretty long list of CDs containing hidded tracks in the session pregap in the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregap

It seems reasonable not to start a new list but to just update the Wikipedia one.

This post has been edited by rumpel: Mar 2 2008, 20:38
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Teknojnky
post Apr 7 2008, 23:01
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I did the hidden song test on my laptop (IBM/Lenova T60P Thinkpad), adding my results:

EAC: appeared to rip successfully, albeit input wave and extracted wave are not bit identical, I could not recognize any difference between them.

it also took a couple hours to extract...

CODE
Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 4 from 23. January 2008

EAC extraction logfile from 7. April 2008, 16:27

Unknown Artist / Unknown Title

Used drive : MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-842 Adapter: 0 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : Yes

Read offset correction : 102
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 3:08.25 | 3:54.08 | 14125 | 31682


Range status and errors

Selected range

Filename Unknown Artist - Unknown Title.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Range quality 97.0 %
Copy CRC 74740FE8
Copy OK

No errors occurred


AccurateRip summary

Track 1 cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 5) [667B9449], AccurateRip returned [986EB5EB]

No tracks could be verified as accurate
You may have a different pressing from the one(s) in the database

End of status report


dbpoweramp r13 april 7th 2008 release

separate track mode
CODE

dBpoweramp Release 13 Digital Audio Extraction Log from Monday, April 07, 2008 4:32 PM

Drive & Settings
----------------

Ripping with drive 'G: [MATSHITA - DVD-RAM UJ-842 ]', Drive offset: 102, Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: None, FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra:: Vary Drive Speed: No, Min Passes: 1, Max Passes: 10, Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: Max, Maximum Re-reads: 80

Encoder: Wave -compression="PCM"
DSP Effects / Actions: -dspeffect1="ReplayGain=-albummode={qt}0{qt}"

Extraction Log
--------------

Track 0: Ripped LBA 0 to 14125 (3:08) in 1:44. Filename: 00 - .wav
Secure [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
CRC32: E03BC989

Track 1: Ripped LBA 14125 to 31683 (3:54) in 0:49. Filename: 01 - .wav
AccurateRip: Inaccurate (confidence 5) Secure [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
CRC32: E2DBCC91 AccurateRip CRC: 433BE448 [DiscID: 001-0000b2f0-00012eb3-0a00ea01-1]

--------------

1 Tracks Ripped Securely (AccurateRip: Different Pressing?)



rip as one mode
CODE

dBpoweramp Release 13 Digital Audio Extraction Log from Monday, April 07, 2008 4:37 PM

Drive & Settings
----------------

Ripping with drive 'G: [MATSHITA - DVD-RAM UJ-842 ]', Drive offset: 102, Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: None, FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra:: Vary Drive Speed: No, Min Passes: 1, Max Passes: 10, Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: Max, Maximum Re-reads: 80

Encoder: Wave -compression="PCM"
DSP Effects / Actions: -dspeffect1="ReplayGain=-albummode={qt}0{qt}"

Extraction Log
--------------

Track 0: Ripped LBA 0 to 31683 (7:02) in 1:59. Filename: 00 Unknown Artist - Rip as One.wav
Secure [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
CRC32: AF207CC2

--------------




Bit comparison (foobar)

source wave vs eac extraction
Comparing failed (length mismatch : 7:02.428254 vs 7:02.440000, 18629086 vs 18629604 samples).


source wave vs r13 rip as one extraction
Comparing failed (length mismatch : 7:02.428254 vs 7:02.440000, 18629086 vs 18629604 samples).

eac vs r13 rip as one
differences found: 16602913 sample(s), starting at 0.0249660 second(s), peak: 1.9550781 at 105.6849887 second(s), 2ch


eac took like 2+ hours to extract the pre-gap audio, r13 took about a minute or 2 (including ultrasecure passes)

So, from what I can see, MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-842 does appear to support HTOA however it does not appear to be 100% bit accurate to the source, although I could not discern any audible differences between any of the 3 (source, eac, r13).

It should also be noted that I burnt the test cd with the same drive, what consequences that may cause I don't know.

This post has been edited by Teknojnky: Apr 7 2008, 23:08


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weaker
post Apr 8 2008, 00:09
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I just want to add my results:

Used "White Ladder" from David Gray (was the only album in the wikipedia pregap list that I own). It contains about two minutes of music before track 1.

I used EAC 0.99 pb4 and the "copy range" command set from zero to the end of track 1. All drives were set to my usual secure ripping settings.

All my drives succeeded in ripping that range with music. And the outcome was bitidentical from all three drives. (Did an inverted mix and it was all zeros.)

- Plextor Premium (I) 1.07
- Plextor DVD 716A 1.11
- AOpen 1648/AAP Pro 1.04

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