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Ripping hidden tracks before index 01, Hardware-based? What to look for?
BoraBora
post Nov 6 2005, 18:21
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I tried yesterday to extract as image + cue sheet this various artists CD: "Songs in the Key of X". Before index 01 are two hidden tracks. Track 01 starts at 09:12:25. My drive is a brand new Plextor 740A (the BenQ one).

In EAC, for this kind of job, you have a choice between extracting an image or use the "copy range" command. I ripped as an image and the file lenght was correct. Problem is... I have 9'25'' of silence before the 1rst track. No music.

To be absolutely sure this has nothing to do with overreading ability, I checked the option (I left it unchecked because the 740A can overread in lead-in, but not in lead-out). New rip, same result. Only silence. Then I tried to uncheck the "Fill up missing offset samples with silence". I know... there's absolutely no reason this should interact. But I had to try. Result: same thing. Only silence.

Note: during each rip, the 1rst row of red squares was lit, very quickly and without stopping during these dreaded first 9'25''. Then no errors at all for the rest of the rip.

I tried the PTP. Since you can't extract as an image with the standard version, I downloaded the trial version of the infamous Plextools Pro XL. Well... I had a fatal error as soon as PTP did the gap detection.

Today, I dug out my Plextor 712A and tried again. No more error correction in EAC during the first 9'25'' and I had music instead of silence, at last! Both EAC and the PTP XL did a fine job. So I guess my question is:

Is the ability to correctly rip music before the index 01 hardware-based? If so, what feature is it? Where do we look for in the specs before buying a drive?

Can the drive rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 and Track 01 Index 01? (mostly useful for hidden songs at the beginning)

* BCD E520C: YES (Cosmo)

* LG 8526B: NO (NRAninja)
* LG-Hitachi HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE8487B: YES (madorangepanda)

* Lite-On LTR-52246S: NO (Cosmo)
* Lite-On LTR-52327S: NO (Drenholm)
* Lite-On SOHW-832S: NO (Synthetic Soul)
* Lite-On SOHW-1673S: NO (langoustator)

* Mitsumi CR-4804TE: YES (Egor)

* NEC ND-3520: NO (.halverhahn)
* NEC ND-3520AW: NO (Egor)

* Pioneer DVR-110D: YES (Egor)

* Plextor PX-40TS: YES (.halverhahn)
* Plextor PX-116A2: YES (langoustator)
* Plextor PX-712A: YES (BoraBora)
* Plextor PX-740A: NO (BoraBora)
* Plextor PX-W5224A: YES (Synthetic Soul)

* QSI SBW-241: YES (southisup)

* Samsung SD-616E: NO (Synthetic Soul)
* Samsung SM-332B: NO (Egor)

* Sony DDU1615: YES (madorangepanda)
* Sony CRX830E: YES (NRAninja)

* TEAC DV-516G: YES (.halverhahn)

* Toshiba SD-R1202: NO (Egor)
* Toshiba SD-M1502: NO (Synthetic Soul)
* Toshiba SD-R5112: NO (Egor)

This post has been edited by BoraBora: Nov 9 2005, 21:52
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NRAninja
post Nov 6 2005, 19:58
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I have an LG 8526B 52x CDRW that shows up in EAC as HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE-8526B. The EXACT same thing happened to me a week ago when I tried to rip Blind Melon - Soup with a hidden track. I tried my Sony 24x cdrw laptop drive which I think is just a rebranded LiteOn and all was well. I guess either your drive can do it or it can't.
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BoraBora
post Nov 6 2005, 23:14
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QUOTE (NRAninja @ Nov 6 2005, 08:58 PM)
I have an LG 8526B 52x CDRW that shows up in EAC as HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE-8526B. The EXACT same thing happened to me a week ago when I tried to rip Blind Melon - Soup with a hidden track. I tried my Sony 24x cdrw laptop drive which I think is just a rebranded LiteOn and all was well.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. wink.gif
QUOTE
I guess either your drive can do it or it can't.
*

Weird, isn't it? I mean... optical drives have been tested for DAE for years now. Cache or not cache, overrreading or not, offset etc. Hundreds of pages were written on the best way to have a bit exact copy. I can't believe such a feature could have been overlooked. blink.gif
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dreamliner77
post Nov 7 2005, 07:56
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Never knew there was a hidden track in the pregap of Soup. Guess I'll have to go dig out the cd now.


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Duble0Syx
post Nov 7 2005, 08:08
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With EAC you can copy the pregap tracks if you use the setting "Append Gaps to Next Track" or just copy"index based". Unfortunetaly this does no good for image ripping or ripping with normal gap settings. I've requested many times an option to rip track 1 pregaps as track 00 and be properly appended in the cuesheets while still using the normal gap method. Still not there though. My only suggestion is to find the topic on the EAC forums and voice you opinion too.
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Drenholm
post Nov 7 2005, 08:44
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I get the same error detection and silence results with you too (Less Than Jake - Losing Streak).

I guess it is hardware dependent. But could someone in the know clarify if it's a physical inability to read this area or if the drive just 'thinks' it's out of bounds because of the TOC and so doesn't even try? Basically, how does overreading work please? smile.gif
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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 10:56
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QUOTE (Duble0Syx @ Nov 7 2005, 09:08 AM)
With EAC you can copy the pregap tracks if you use the setting "Append Gaps to Next Track" or just copy"index based".  Unfortunetaly this does no good for image ripping or  ripping with normal gap settings.  I've requested many times an option to rip track 1 pregaps as track 00 and be properly appended in the cuesheets while still using the normal gap method.  Still not there though.  My only suggestion is to find the topic on the EAC forums and voice you opinion too.
*


Actually, though I understand your concern et agee with you, this is not really the problem exposed here. EAC can extract the pregap with the default setting, minus the first two seconds. I can live with that. I don't have a problem with EAC or even the Plextools Pro, I have a problem with some drives.

QUOTE (Drenholm @ Nov 7 2005, 09:44 AM)
I get the same error detection and silence results with you too (Less Than Jake - Losing Streak).

I guess it is hardware dependent. But could someone in the know clarify if it's  a physical inability to read this area or if the drive just 'thinks' it's out of bounds because of the TOC and so doesn't even try? Basically, how does overreading work please? smile.gif
*

What is your drive model? I'm going to list them in the first post. unsure.gif

I'm thinking more and more of a firmware feature. The ability to "rewind" in the pregap could be firmware-based, isn't it? Or am I silly?
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Squeller
post Nov 7 2005, 12:08
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QUOTE (Drenholm @ Nov 6 2005, 11:44 PM)
I guess it is hardware dependent. But could someone in the know clarify if it's  a physical inability to read this area or if the drive just 'thinks' it's out of bounds because of the TOC and so doesn't even try? Basically, how does overreading work please? smile.gif

I may be wrong, but the thing about the hidden track is, thats what I thought, simple: They simply put the cd start marker at a later position than the real cd start. So I guess there should be no technical reason not to read this.
But I may be wrong smile.gif
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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 12:13
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QUOTE (Squeller @ Nov 7 2005, 01:08 PM)
I may be wrong, but the thing about the hidden track is, thats what I thought, simple: They simply put the cd start marker at a later position than the real cd start. So I guess there should be no technical reason not to read this.

Exactly. That's why I'm thinking of a firmware limitation. crying.gif
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Pio2001
post Nov 7 2005, 13:03
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QUOTE (BoraBora @ Nov 6 2005, 07:21 PM)
I left it unchecked because the 740A can overread in lead-in, but not in lead-out
*


You've just proven that this drive can't overread into lead-in smile.gif
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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 13:46
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QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Nov 7 2005, 02:03 PM)
You've just proven that this drive can't overread into lead-in  smile.gif
*

So this is related to the overreading feature only? That's weird, because in this test, the 740A is supposed to overread into lead-in:



That's why I thought this had nothing to do with overreading. Thre's another inconsistency: the rip is fine with the 712A and the "Overread into lead-in and lead-out" option unchecked.
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Synthetic Soul
post Nov 7 2005, 14:14
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I've asked for this question to be cleared up before. Hopefully Pio2001 will return and enlighten us.

I bought a Plextor PX-W5224A specifically to rip these tracks. I bought it as it can over-read the lead-in, and it appeared to me that this was the requirement.

If you are compiling a list, my Samsung SD-616E at work managed to rip Bloc Party's Silent Alarm (whereas my Lite-On SOHW-832S and Toshiba SD-M1502(?) wouldn't even get past gap detection) but the INDEX 00 track was silence.

MY Plextor is working well for the role.


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Alex B
post Nov 7 2005, 14:14
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If I have understood correctly, when the read offset correction is set in EAC to read from lead-in area it just adjusts the physical starting point a bit.


For example:

This is a two-track disc without hidden tracks:
CODE
FILE "disc image.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
  INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
  INDEX 01 50:00:00


This two-track disc has indentical audio content, but the disc starts with a huge 45-minute hidden track.
CODE
FILE "disc image.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
  INDEX 00 00:00:00
  INDEX 01 45:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
  INDEX 01 50:00:00


The difference between these two discs is only in the table of contents, not in the physical location on the disc.


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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 14:51
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Nov 7 2005, 03:14 PM)
I bought a Plextor PX-W5224A specifically to rip these tracks.  I bought it as it can over-read the lead-in, and it appeared to me that this was the requirement.

If you are compiling a list, my Samsung SD-616E at work managed to rip Bloc Party's Silent Alarm (whereas my Lite-On SOHW-832S and Toshiba SD-M1502(?) wouldn't even get past gap detection) but the INDEX 00 track was silence.

MY Plextor is working well for the role.
*

According to www.daefeatures.co.uk, the Samsung can overread into lead-in, just like my PX-740A. And both are producing silence instead of sound. huh.gif According to CD Speed, the Lite-On SOHW-832S can overread both in lead-in and lead-out:



Still, you couldn't rip the hidden track at all. The The Toshiba SD-M1502 can't overread at all:



It seems to me there's something else than the overreading feature only. So far, we have:

* Toshiba SD-M1502: can't overread at all. Can't rip index 00
* Samsung SD-616E & Plextor 740A: can overread into lead-in. Can rip but only silence.
* Lite-On SOHW-832S: can overread into lead-in and lead-out. Can't rip index 00
* Plextor PX-W5224A & PX-712A: can overread into lead-in. Can properly rip index 00
* LG 8526B: not sure about overreading ability. Can rip but only silence.

Could CD-Speed be inaccurate or is this firmware-related or what? crying.gif
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NRAninja
post Nov 7 2005, 15:34
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On a normal disc, the EAC overread test says the LG 8526B can overread into lead in and lead out, but if I try the test on a hidden pregap disc, the overread test says overread into lead out only wacko.gif

EAC says the Sony CRX830E can overread into lead in and hidden pregaps rip fine.
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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 16:01
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QUOTE (NRAninja @ Nov 7 2005, 04:34 PM)
On a normal disc, the EAC overread test says the LG 8526B can overread into lead in and lead out, but if I try the test on a hidden pregap disc, the overread test says overread into lead out only  wacko.gif

EAC says the Sony CRX830E can overread into lead in and hidden pregaps rip fine.
*

Thanks. I updated the list in the first post. Your test with the LG 8526B and the contradictory statements in EAC are weird. Could all the overreading detection tests be flawed and inaccurate, be it CDSpeed or EAC? Now that's a disturbing idea. crying.gif

Edit: maybe a stupid idea. Could the overreading ability be limited with some drives to x samples and no more? That could explain the 1rst detection in EAC producing a positive result (yes, this drive can overread in the lead-in...), then a negative one with a hidden song (... but not this far, silly biggrin.gif ).

This post has been edited by BoraBora: Nov 7 2005, 16:19
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Synthetic Soul
post Nov 7 2005, 16:22
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QUOTE (BoraBora @ Nov 7 2005, 03:01 PM)
Edit: maybe a stupid idea. Could the overreading ability be limited with some drives to x samples and no more? That could explain the 1rst detection in EAC producing a positive result (yes, this drive can overread in the lead-in...), then a negative one with a hidden song (... but not this far, silly  biggrin.gif ).
I was actually going to reply with this earlier.

I did the CD Speed test on my Lite-On a while back and although the report may say that it can read lead-in I believe the number of samples was small - equivalent to 1-2 seconds or so.

This post has been edited by Synthetic Soul: Nov 7 2005, 16:23


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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 18:12
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Nov 7 2005, 05:22 PM)
I was actually going to reply with this earlier.

I did the CD Speed test on my Lite-On a while back and although the report may say that it can read lead-in I believe the number of samples was small - equivalent to 1-2 seconds or so.
*

We may be on the right track, there. cool.gif

Now how do we know how much samples in the lead-in can a drive overread? The various DAE databases are useless. That's something nobody ever cared to consider, TMHK. crying.gif
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Synthetic Soul
post Nov 7 2005, 18:26
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I'll try to get figures from CDSpeed for my Lite-On and Plextor in the next few hours. That may be interesting - to see how large the difference is.

(The Plextor replaced the Toshiba.)


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BoraBora
post Nov 7 2005, 18:43
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Nov 7 2005, 07:26 PM)
I'll try to get figures from CDSpeed for my Lite-On and Plextor in the next few hours.  That may be interesting - to see how large the difference is.

(The Plextor replaced the Toshiba.)
*

Great!

I just ran CDSpeed on my 712A but no test of overreading was done. I guess you have to do the "Advanced DAE quality test" which requires burning a CD?
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Alex B
post Nov 7 2005, 19:04
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I searched for information and it seems that all audio data is always physically located after the lead-in area, including the data in the pregap before the first track.

Some links:

http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto/cdburnadv2.html
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=49264
http://www.samsungodd.com/eng/Information/...&no=8&type_no=3
http://www.digitalprosound.com/Features/2000/Sept/RecCD.htm
http://www.cinram.com/cd/tech/cdenhanced.pdf
http://www.plextor.com/english/news/glossary.html
http://mlug.missouri.edu/~rjudd/projects/c...FAQ.html#[3-36]


I was curious enough to test how this works. I burned a test CD-RW with a hidden track. I used a modified cue sheet and a standard wave file. The CD works fine. The hidden track can be accessed by rewinding on my stand-alone player and also EAC can rip correct disc image wave & cue files that contain the hidden track area. I used LG's HL-DT-STRW/DVD GCC-4080B drive and EAC v.0.95b3 for burning and ripping.


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Cosmo
post Nov 7 2005, 19:58
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My Lite-On LTR-52246S is reported as being able to read into the lead-in (though I suppose this could be false), but ripping a hidden track with it returns silence and EAC reports a "timing problem" when reading Index 00. The log reports "Suspicious position 0:00:00 - 0:02:06" ... and Index 01 begins at 0:02:08.15

My BCD E520C CD-ROM overreads into lead-in/out, and can rip it fine.

(tested with Blind Melon - Soup)
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Pio2001
post Nov 7 2005, 20:27
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The detection of the ability to read into lead-in must be based on read errors only.
The program asks the drive to read before track 1. If the drive returns a read error, the program says "this drive can't overread", and if the drive returns music, or silence, the program says "this drive can overread into lead-in".
The program is not supposed to know if the audio before track one is actually silent or not !

In fact the CD layout is like this :

Lead-in : can't be played back by any drive, but nonetheless features some audio frames, as a buffer.
At the end of the lead-in, the audio track begins. This point is Track 01 Index 00, and the absolut time is 00:00:00:00.
Then, there is a compulsory pregap, that is two seconds long. The end of this pregap is only materialized by the numbering of the audio sectors. The absolute time is then 00:00:02:00, and the audio sector is number 0.
From this point, CD Players can playback (as long as you rewind first in order to reach it), and DAE programs can extract "by range" (from sector 0 to sector xxxx ; There are 75 sectors in one second).
Then, after a possible hidden track, the track 1 begins. This point is Track 01 Index 01. The absolute time and sector number can be as high as we want. From this point, CD Players automatically start the CD playback, and DAE programs extract "by track".

Some drives can't read before track 01 index 01.
Some drives can, but can't overread into "lead-in". Which is a wrong statement, because it actually means that they can't read the compulsory pregap, or in other words, can't read negative audio sectors (from -150 to -1).
Some drives can read all along from Track 00 Index 00 (sector -150, Absolute time 00:00:00:00). They may even overread into the actual lead-in if you tweak the registry.

In some cases, you are forced to overread into the pregap. In the two CD with hidden tracks that I've got the audio actually started in the pregap, and it was not possible to get the beginning "by range", or "index based". The extraction starts 2 seconds too late. (they are Elegia - From within, and a CD by Juantrip whose title I forgot).
There is also a problem with Mike Oldfield - Discovery, but this one has no hidden track. It is the track 1 that begins too early ! And no way to rewind on the CD Player, not to get the missing part "by range".
The solution is to set the read offset correction to a very low value. But since EAC doesn't accept values low enough, it must be done directly in Windows registry, in the EAC setup. Then start EAC, and rip without displaying the drive options.
You can then set -88200 as read offset correction, if you want to get the whole pregap "by range". Asking for the range 0/150 will actually read the range -150/-1
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Alex B
post Nov 7 2005, 20:48
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Could there be some kind of difference between the factory made hidden tracks and the ones made with EAC?

My original CUE file was this (I chose this CD single because it was the smallest disc image rip in my archive):

CODE

PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
TITLE "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year"
FILE "Jimi Hendrix - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/Auld Lang Syne"
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Three Little Bears"
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
INDEX 00 04:28:37
INDEX 01 04:29:65
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/Auld Lang Syne (Extended Version)"
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
INDEX 00 08:42:63
INDEX 01 08:43:70


I made the hidden track CD with this cue:

CODE

PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
TITLE "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year"
FILE "Jimi Hendrix - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Hidden Track & Three Little Bears"
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 04:29:65
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/Auld Lang Syne (Extended Version)"
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
INDEX 00 08:42:63
INDEX 01 08:43:70


I have the Overread into Lead-in and Lead-out option unselected in EAC. (LG 4080B can read into the lead-in, but not into the lead-out. The correct read sample offset correction value is only +6. However, even that small value would need a read into lead-out capability, so I have kept the overread option disabled and filled the missing offset samples with silence instead.)


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Synthetic Soul
post Nov 7 2005, 20:56
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QUOTE (BoraBora @ Nov 7 2005, 05:43 PM)
I just ran CDSpeed on my 712A but no test of overreading was done. I guess you have to do the "Advanced DAE quality test" which requires burning a CD?
Yes. You create the test CD and then run the test (Extra > Advanced DAE Quality Test).

QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Nov 7 2005, 05:26 PM)
I'll try to get figures from CDSpeed for my Lite-On and Plextor in the next few hours.  That may be interesting - to see how large the difference is.

Lite-On SOHW-832S
Drive can read max. 139 sectors (-00:01.64) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6749 sectors (-01:29.74) from the Lead-out

Plextor PX-W5224A
Drive can read max. 75 sectors (-00:01.00) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6755 sectors (-01:30.05) from the Lead-out

Curious results. Strangely enough, CD-DVD Speed also reported the offset of the Plextor as 0 bytes/samples. I may need to try the Lite-On with a hidden track again to double-check.

Thanks a lot to Pio2001 for the comprehensive response. I'm hoping that I may even be able to understand some of it with a clear head tomorrow morning. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Synthetic Soul: Nov 7 2005, 21:05


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