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DSD-2-PCM -- proof of concept, test sample and source code here
SebastianG
post Oct 8 2005, 23:55
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The ZIP contains 4 files:
- dsd2pcm.jar (the converter written in Java, outputs raw 24/88 PCM, intel byte order)
- info.txt (contains some infos)
- test2822k.dsd (14 seconds, mono DSD, 5 megs)
- test44k.mp3 (conversion result)

have fun,
Sebi

Edit-2011: For the latest C/C++ source code see https://code.google.com/p/dsd2pcm/ It is released under the new BSD license. The attatchment to this post is still the first Java release.



This post has been edited by SebastianG: Dec 4 2011, 17:45
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Attached File  dsd2pcm.zip ( 3.56MB ) Number of downloads: 2887
 
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vincefalks
post Nov 24 2009, 13:07
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The noise is indeed a problem with the DSD format and, format-wise, something only improved by DSD128 (pushes it up twice as high) and furthermore with DXD (even less noise).

When converting to PCM, my opinion would be that one should have the option to be able to tweak such filter settings as they see fit. If ones objective would be to perform the most accurate "capture" (for lack of a better word) of what's from the original DSD signal (within the frequency range of your PCM output), you should be able to capture the whole thing, noise and all, if you wanted. Even if just for analysis and debugging.
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rpp3po
post Nov 24 2009, 14:01
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The problem with the "most accurate capture" is that DSD players do 'know' that terrible amounts of noise are there and their analog low-pass probably reaches far enough down to compensate somewhat. PCM doesn't have this problem, a good 96 kHz DAC will roughly output at least 40 kHz of perfect analog bandwidth. This would be a capture of the full digital DSD signal, but probably not an accurate capture of the equivalent DSD low passed 'experience'.

QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 24 2009, 13:07) *
The noise is indeed a problem with the DSD format and, format-wise, something only improved by DSD128 (pushes it up twice as high) and furthermore with DXD (even less noise).


Yes, solve the problem by wasting space for insanely high bitrates, to rescue this purely marketing motivated technology, instead of using proper PCM. DSD has not a single advantage over PCM other than DA converter costs. Good DSD DAC can be built pretty cheaply, kind of strange when you're targeting the higher end. But excellent PCM DACs are also available at commodity prices nowadays. Just accept it, the format is dead.
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vincefalks
post Nov 24 2009, 14:25
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 15:01) *
The problem with the "most accurate capture" is that DSD players do 'know' that terrible amounts of noise are there and their analog low-pass probably reaches far enough down to compensate somewhat. PCM doesn't have this problem, a good 96 kHz DAC will roughly output at least 40 kHz of perfect analog bandwidth. This would be a capture of the full digital DSD signal, but probably not an accurate capture of the equivalent DSD low passed 'experience'.

No, that's right. But to someone who wants as full a picture (mathemaatically) of the original DSD signal should have access to everything if they want. And then filter it out later if they want.

QUOTE
QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 24 2009, 13:07) *
The noise is indeed a problem with the DSD format and, format-wise, something only improved by DSD128 (pushes it up twice as high) and furthermore with DXD (even less noise).
Yes, solve the problem by wasting space for insanely high bitrates, to rescue this purely marketing motivated technology, instead of using proper PCM.

Well, I have no comment on that here smile.gif, but if you were to stay within the DSD "family", those are the "solutions" to the noise problem (although DXD is in its own new category, or you might say it's within the PCM "family" - it is PCM-*based* but with a relaxed anti-alias filter giving it properties/elements of the DSD encoding scheme).

QUOTE
DSD has not a single advantage over PCM other than DA converter costs. Good DSD DAC can be built pretty cheaply, kind of strange when you're targeting the higher end. But excellent PCM DACs are also available at commodity prices nowadays. Just accept it, the format is dead.

I have no comment about the value of DSD other than that I value it for reasons such as this: we have quite a lot of music mastered and released in the format, and some of it on non-hybrid discs. I happen to value this unique high quality catalog of music (and even on non-hybrid discs, there is the multichannel mix not available on the redbook layer) and thus am interested in converting this music to PCM in the purest way possible.

This post has been edited by vincefalks: Nov 24 2009, 14:29
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Canar
post Nov 24 2009, 15:49
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QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 24 2009, 08:25) *
I happen to value this unique high quality catalog of music (and even on non-hybrid discs, there is the multichannel mix not available on the redbook layer) and thus am interested in converting this music to PCM in the purest way possible.
I'd suggest keeping the originals as un-converted DSD and just decode to PCM on the fly using a foobar2000 component or something. I'm not sure that one exists currently, but having a library of lossless DSD material is probably preferable to the same material in PCM-decoded form. One less source of loss...


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rpp3po
post Nov 24 2009, 17:23
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Raw DSD means saving about 3 GB per 70 minute stereo album. Kind of a waste when you can save 48kHz files, that should perfectly* preserve the 0-22 kHz band, and only need about 475 MB (FLAC). That's over 2.5 GB wasted, not for discarded but inaudible recorded information but plain quantization distortion, added by an inferior form of digitalization. Why save 2.5 GB of garbage per album? Has there ever been just one solid positive blind test for DSD?

* talk about differences of -110db or lower

This post has been edited by rpp3po: Nov 24 2009, 17:25
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BOBCHEWIE
post Jan 3 2010, 12:14
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 10:23) *
Raw DSD means saving about 3 GB per 70 minute stereo album. Kind of a waste when you can save 48kHz files, that should perfectly* preserve the 0-22 kHz band, and only need about 475 MB (FLAC). That's over 2.5 GB wasted, not for discarded but inaudible recorded information but plain quantization distortion, added by an inferior form of digitalization. Why save 2.5 GB of garbage per album? Has there ever been just one solid positive blind test for DSD?

* talk about differences of -110db or lower

ok i have idea lets make or convert our audio to 11khz mono and knock it into mp3 format..after all, its about quantity over quality isnt it?
the next time i read an article that tells me the audio customers arent interested in quality and the SACD /DVD Audio format is dead ..i will
scream, have a hissy fit and take my ball back...why the heck do we have to put up with this 'anti hires' propaganda all the time..what ?so that el cheapo music company can keep on shovellng their crappy junk music in mp2.5 format at us?

This post has been edited by BOBCHEWIE: Jan 3 2010, 12:16
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Martel
post Jan 4 2010, 09:53
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QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 12:14) *
...why the heck do we have to put up with this 'anti hires' propaganda all the time...

QUOTE (Wikipedia)
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented.
Which part of this describes what HA community is doing? Last time I checked, people here demanded (verifiable) evidence to support one's claims. I guess it's the other way around in your case (hi-res propaganda).


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Posts in this topic
- SebastianG   DSD-2-PCM -- proof of concept   Oct 8 2005, 23:55
- - skamp   Now you need to develop a DVD-ROM driver for readi...   Oct 9 2005, 01:27
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (skamp @ Oct 9 2005, 01:27 AM)Now you n...   Oct 9 2005, 10:32
|- - SebastianG   Oh, I noticed a small bug: The dsd file size must ...   Oct 9 2005, 11:06
- - tarsier   So is it theoretically possible to convert the PCM...   Dec 24 2006, 20:33
|- - putanik   QUOTE (tarsier @ Dec 24 2006, 13:33) So i...   Dec 24 2006, 22:54
|- - tarsier   Thanks for the link. But right now, I'm only ...   Dec 26 2006, 16:28
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (tarsier @ Dec 26 2006, 16:28) In d...   Dec 26 2006, 19:03
- - andyshedd   I'm mildly curious how this method compares an...   Jan 8 2007, 22:44
- - frenchglen   Is there any updated info about this program? I tr...   Jun 8 2009, 15:23
- - LukeS   I am bringing this back form years of being dead. ...   Nov 23 2009, 15:56
- - GeSomeone   I think it's in the first post. QUOTE (Sebasti...   Nov 23 2009, 19:12
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Nov 23 2009, 19:12) I ...   Nov 23 2009, 20:31
- - LukeS   SebastianG, Awesome job on the program, my proble...   Nov 23 2009, 22:32
|- - vincefalks   I am not an expert but it would be cool to compare...   Nov 24 2009, 00:17
|- - rpp3po   What would be a higher quality approach than 1. co...   Nov 24 2009, 02:48
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 23 2009, 22:32) The ou...   Nov 24 2009, 10:38
- - 2Bdecided   With the huge caveat that I made no attempt to do ...   Nov 24 2009, 12:40
- - vincefalks   The noise is indeed a problem with the DSD format ...   Nov 24 2009, 13:07
|- - rpp3po   The problem with the "most accurate capture...   Nov 24 2009, 14:01
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 15:01) The p...   Nov 24 2009, 14:25
||- - Canar   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 24 2009, 08:25) I...   Nov 24 2009, 15:49
||- - rpp3po   Raw DSD means saving about 3 GB per 70 minute ster...   Nov 24 2009, 17:23
||- - BOBCHEWIE   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 10:23) Raw D...   Jan 3 2010, 12:14
||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 12:14) scr...   Jan 3 2010, 14:15
||- - Axon   QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 05:14) QUO...   Jan 3 2010, 14:22
||- - Martel   QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 12:14) ......   Jan 4 2010, 09:53
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 08:01) DSD h...   Nov 24 2009, 15:46
- - LukeS   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 08:01) The p...   Nov 24 2009, 21:39
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 21:39) 48kHz ...   Nov 25 2009, 03:00
||- - LukeS   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 21:00) QUOTE...   Nov 25 2009, 04:20
||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 22:20) QUOTE ...   Nov 25 2009, 05:25
||- - LukeS   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Nov 24 2009, 23...   Nov 25 2009, 05:29
||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 23:29) Also I...   Nov 25 2009, 05:55
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 22:39) I am v...   Nov 25 2009, 08:02
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 21:39) Also t...   Nov 25 2009, 08:36
- - Axon   Look into the dynamic range of SACD at 22khz somet...   Nov 24 2009, 21:56
- - Axon   Yes, let's all thank LukeS for being a boy sco...   Nov 25 2009, 04:59
|- - LukeS   QUOTE (Axon @ Nov 24 2009, 22:59) Yes, le...   Nov 25 2009, 05:21
||- - Martel   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 05:21) The bo...   Nov 25 2009, 10:24
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Nov 25 2009, 03:59) Sorry f...   Nov 25 2009, 12:13
|- - udauda   QUOTE (Axon @ Nov 24 2009, 19:59) You...   Nov 26 2009, 02:31
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (udauda @ Nov 26 2009, 01:31) Does ...   Nov 26 2009, 11:46
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 26 2009, 12:46) Li...   Nov 26 2009, 12:02
|- - rpp3po   Yawn! Am I really the last one to get where t...   Nov 26 2009, 12:37
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 26 2009, 13:37) Yawn...   Nov 26 2009, 13:10
|- - rpp3po   At least you seem believe the life-like-analog-sou...   Nov 26 2009, 13:25
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 26 2009, 14:25) At le...   Nov 26 2009, 13:40
- - LukeS   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 25 2009, 02:02) Q...   Nov 25 2009, 09:16
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 09:16) See th...   Nov 25 2009, 10:32
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 09:16) DST wo...   Nov 25 2009, 18:02
|- - simmconn   QUOTE DST would work but I have not found a no low...   Nov 26 2009, 01:31
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (simmconn @ Nov 26 2009, 02:31) QUO...   Nov 26 2009, 03:38
- - rpp3po   Sorry, if I didn't express myself clearly enou...   Nov 25 2009, 12:04
- - Axon   It's a surprisingly well known mod, actually. ...   Nov 25 2009, 19:38
|- - rpp3po   I find it interesting, nevertheless. What equipmen...   Nov 25 2009, 20:38
- - LukeS   Wow, I really am messing thing up lately ; I got ...   Nov 26 2009, 07:27
|- - simmconn   And I just spent one and a half hours to encode an...   Nov 26 2009, 08:16
- - 2Bdecided   Yes, the distortions of SACD are inaudible. Especi...   Nov 26 2009, 15:57
- - Canar   So that's what they mean by "warm" s...   Nov 26 2009, 16:22
- - Axon   If SACD really did have a similar distortion profi...   Nov 26 2009, 21:14
- - SebastianG   Just for kicks and giggles I rewrote most of ...   Nov 27 2009, 03:26
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Nov 27 2009, 03:26) J...   Nov 27 2009, 03:44
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 03:44) T...   Nov 27 2009, 04:14
||- - vincefalks   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Nov 27 2009, 04:14) S...   Nov 27 2009, 05:11
||- - Kees de Visser   There seems to be a growing (niche) market for onl...   Nov 27 2009, 09:02
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 04:11) N...   Nov 27 2009, 10:59
||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 05:11) N...   Nov 27 2009, 12:55
|||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 27 2009, 11:55) An an...   Nov 27 2009, 13:00
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 26 2009, 23:11) T...   Nov 29 2009, 03:56
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 03:44) H...   Nov 27 2009, 04:16
- - LukeS   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Nov 26 2009, 21:26) J...   Nov 27 2009, 07:33
|- - smack   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 27 2009, 07:33) Window...   Nov 27 2009, 11:00
- - .halverhahn   DXD is PCM - just with a bunch of noise above 48kH...   Nov 27 2009, 15:34
|- - rpp3po   Wow! The DXD track is certainly nothing Bruce ...   Nov 27 2009, 17:47
- - spoon   As the noise is constant this shows the levels qui...   Nov 29 2009, 20:54
- - spoon   QUOTE The final amusing aspect to all this is that...   Nov 29 2009, 22:51
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (spoon @ Nov 29 2009, 16:51) QUOTE ...   Nov 30 2009, 06:33
- - spoon   Based on Sebastians good work I have wrapped the d...   Dec 1 2009, 17:49
- - kode54   @spoon: I presume you modified the stage 1 filter ...   Dec 1 2009, 19:55
- - spoon   I thought it was a command line option on dsd2pcm?   Dec 1 2009, 20:15
|- - kode54   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 1 2009, 11:15) I thoug...   Dec 7 2009, 15:32
- - krabapple   This is all peachy for those recording DSD files o...   Dec 2 2009, 06:56
|- - BOBCHEWIE   QUOTE (krabapple @ Dec 1 2009, 23:56) Thi...   Jan 3 2010, 13:33
- - spoon   I might be wrong, but I do not think there are any...   Dec 2 2009, 09:55
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 2 2009, 03:55) I might...   Dec 2 2009, 17:23
- - Martel   QUOTE There are three types of SACDs[9]: * Hy...   Dec 2 2009, 10:35
- - .halverhahn   Just for your information: Wheatus is offering The...   Dec 2 2009, 11:38
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (.halverhahn @ Dec 2 2009, 10:38) J...   Dec 2 2009, 15:11
- - vincefalks   Ok finally my warning was lifted after a little si...   Dec 7 2009, 17:55
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Dec 7 2009, 11:55) QU...   Dec 7 2009, 18:26
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Dec 7 2009, 16:55) I...   Dec 7 2009, 18:33
|- - spoon   Did anyone manage to decode a .dsf file? (such as ...   Dec 8 2009, 10:21
- - Martel   A (square analog) pulse has an infinitely wide spe...   Dec 7 2009, 18:26
- - udauda   I wonder, how come Pro-DSD never comes up with a s...   Jan 4 2010, 13:39
- - rpp3po   Excellent paper, thanks!   Jan 4 2010, 14:31
- - krabapple   I remember this one from a few years back....I for...   Jan 8 2010, 22:05
- - ElfeJoyeux   Hello, I just discovered this awesome topic durin...   Mar 11 2010, 22:34
|- - Hobbit13   QUOTE (ElfeJoyeux @ Mar 11 2010, 22:34) T...   Jul 19 2010, 10:48
- - Sik_Lescinovid   Has anyone so far noticed that when creating a 24 ...   Nov 27 2011, 18:28
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