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DSD-2-PCM -- proof of concept, test sample and source code here
SebastianG
post Oct 8 2005, 23:55
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From: Göttingen (DE)
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The ZIP contains 4 files:
- dsd2pcm.jar (the converter written in Java, outputs raw 24/88 PCM, intel byte order)
- info.txt (contains some infos)
- test2822k.dsd (14 seconds, mono DSD, 5 megs)
- test44k.mp3 (conversion result)

have fun,
Sebi

Edit-2011: For the latest C/C++ source code see https://code.google.com/p/dsd2pcm/ It is released under the new BSD license. The attatchment to this post is still the first Java release.



This post has been edited by SebastianG: Dec 4 2011, 17:45
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LukeS
post Nov 25 2009, 09:16
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QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 25 2009, 02:02) *
QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 22:39) *
I am very new to the SACD format but I am interested in picking up a second hand SACD player that outputs DSD over HDMI and trying to grab the DSD signals before they get encrypted and sent over HDMI, it may offer a less altered signal.
I myself am not the biggest technical expert on the mathematics of PCM or DSD, but I thought nothing can be altered to the signal within the (digital) DSD domain - only at analog/PCM stage of the player, maybe. I might be wrong though. There certainly are other players which do not cut off ultra high freuencies like that Denon.

See the attached a screen shot from the Denon DVD-955 / DVD-2910 manual, there is some filtering going on in the player. Either this is an option that is set on the DACs (most likely I would think), in the analog circuity, or the Denon player post-processes the DSD signal and applies a 50kHz or 100kHz filter before sending it to the DACs. If this is the case it is probably done in the sony DSD chip but it would seem to be way to processing intensive to do so and is probably done in the analog domain. I have some digging to do in the DAC datasheet to find out exactly.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Also the storage could be greatly reduced is a loss less container format was made to store the raw DSD channels.
Well THAT sir, is DST - it's like MLP for PCM/DVD-A. Currently, only rare pro applications can encode DST, but I hope in future we will have acces to such a facility.

Haha, yea that's the problem, I don't have thousands of dollars or access to pro tools sad.gif

QUOTE (knutinh @ Nov 25 2009, 02:36) *
QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 21:39) *
Also the storage could be greatly reduced is a loss less container format was made to store the raw DSD channels.


I think that LPCM offers lossless, uncompressed output from available, high-quality ADCs.

FLAC offers lossless compression of LPCM.

DSD offers unprocessed storage*) of ADCs that are no longer viable. For all other cases, it is simply a bad trade-off between filesize and quality.

DST offers lossless compression of DSD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacd#DST

-k

*)This is a benefit invented by PR and poorly educated audiophiles.


DST would work but I have not found a no low cost or free software to convert raw DSD to DST or to combine the 6 mono DSD files captured and compress them in a DST file. There is no mainstream information no how to rip the DST \ DSF files on the SACD so that option is out.

FLAC and others are PCM formats and I would like to compress the raw DSD files I capture so those formats are out. ZIP works but it is not optimized for DSD, it will do until I can do something with the DSD files anyways. If a free or low cost tool comes about to convert DSD to PCM or if I figure out why the program SebastianG is not liking my DSD files I will store the converted PCM output in FLAC. I may just end up buying a player that converts the DSD to high sample rate LPCM, grab the unencrypted signals in the player, save that to FLAC, and be done with it.

This post has been edited by LukeS: Nov 25 2009, 09:49
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SebastianG
post Nov 25 2009, 10:32
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QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 09:16) *
See the attached a screen shot from the Denon DVD-955 / DVD-2910 manual, there is some filtering going on in the player.

Of course there is. At 20 kHz you still have a dynamic range of 110 dB, but it goes down very quickly. Starting at 100kHz you have pure noise. The quantization noise is so powerful up there that is it probably 10^4 times larger than anything "natural" you would want to record. So, of course you need filtering. Anything above 100kHz should be attenuated by at least 100 dB, starting the roll off at 50kHz or so. You can beat this easily with a simple PCM system running at 200 kHz and 8 bits/sample at nearly half the data rate of DSD64. Go figure.

QUOTE
I think that LPCM offers lossless, uncompressed output from available, high-quality ADCs.

IMHO, the terms "lossless" and "lossy" only apply to a process that turns one signal/bitstream to another.

Cheers,
SG
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Posts in this topic
- SebastianG   DSD-2-PCM -- proof of concept   Oct 8 2005, 23:55
- - skamp   Now you need to develop a DVD-ROM driver for readi...   Oct 9 2005, 01:27
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (skamp @ Oct 9 2005, 01:27 AM)Now you n...   Oct 9 2005, 10:32
|- - SebastianG   Oh, I noticed a small bug: The dsd file size must ...   Oct 9 2005, 11:06
- - tarsier   So is it theoretically possible to convert the PCM...   Dec 24 2006, 20:33
|- - putanik   QUOTE (tarsier @ Dec 24 2006, 13:33) So i...   Dec 24 2006, 22:54
|- - tarsier   Thanks for the link. But right now, I'm only ...   Dec 26 2006, 16:28
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (tarsier @ Dec 26 2006, 16:28) In d...   Dec 26 2006, 19:03
- - andyshedd   I'm mildly curious how this method compares an...   Jan 8 2007, 22:44
- - frenchglen   Is there any updated info about this program? I tr...   Jun 8 2009, 15:23
- - LukeS   I am bringing this back form years of being dead. ...   Nov 23 2009, 15:56
- - GeSomeone   I think it's in the first post. QUOTE (Sebasti...   Nov 23 2009, 19:12
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Nov 23 2009, 19:12) I ...   Nov 23 2009, 20:31
- - LukeS   SebastianG, Awesome job on the program, my proble...   Nov 23 2009, 22:32
|- - vincefalks   I am not an expert but it would be cool to compare...   Nov 24 2009, 00:17
|- - rpp3po   What would be a higher quality approach than 1. co...   Nov 24 2009, 02:48
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 23 2009, 22:32) The ou...   Nov 24 2009, 10:38
- - 2Bdecided   With the huge caveat that I made no attempt to do ...   Nov 24 2009, 12:40
- - vincefalks   The noise is indeed a problem with the DSD format ...   Nov 24 2009, 13:07
|- - rpp3po   The problem with the "most accurate capture...   Nov 24 2009, 14:01
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 15:01) The p...   Nov 24 2009, 14:25
||- - Canar   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 24 2009, 08:25) I...   Nov 24 2009, 15:49
||- - rpp3po   Raw DSD means saving about 3 GB per 70 minute ster...   Nov 24 2009, 17:23
||- - BOBCHEWIE   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 10:23) Raw D...   Jan 3 2010, 12:14
||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 12:14) scr...   Jan 3 2010, 14:15
||- - Axon   QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 05:14) QUO...   Jan 3 2010, 14:22
||- - Martel   QUOTE (BOBCHEWIE @ Jan 3 2010, 12:14) ......   Jan 4 2010, 09:53
|- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 08:01) DSD h...   Nov 24 2009, 15:46
- - LukeS   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 08:01) The p...   Nov 24 2009, 21:39
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 21:39) 48kHz ...   Nov 25 2009, 03:00
||- - LukeS   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 24 2009, 21:00) QUOTE...   Nov 25 2009, 04:20
||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 22:20) QUOTE ...   Nov 25 2009, 05:25
||- - LukeS   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Nov 24 2009, 23...   Nov 25 2009, 05:29
||- - Mike Giacomelli   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 23:29) Also I...   Nov 25 2009, 05:55
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 22:39) I am v...   Nov 25 2009, 08:02
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 24 2009, 21:39) Also t...   Nov 25 2009, 08:36
- - Axon   Look into the dynamic range of SACD at 22khz somet...   Nov 24 2009, 21:56
- - Axon   Yes, let's all thank LukeS for being a boy sco...   Nov 25 2009, 04:59
|- - LukeS   QUOTE (Axon @ Nov 24 2009, 22:59) Yes, le...   Nov 25 2009, 05:21
||- - Martel   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 05:21) The bo...   Nov 25 2009, 10:24
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Nov 25 2009, 03:59) Sorry f...   Nov 25 2009, 12:13
|- - udauda   QUOTE (Axon @ Nov 24 2009, 19:59) You...   Nov 26 2009, 02:31
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (udauda @ Nov 26 2009, 01:31) Does ...   Nov 26 2009, 11:46
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 26 2009, 12:46) Li...   Nov 26 2009, 12:02
|- - rpp3po   Yawn! Am I really the last one to get where t...   Nov 26 2009, 12:37
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 26 2009, 13:37) Yawn...   Nov 26 2009, 13:10
|- - rpp3po   At least you seem believe the life-like-analog-sou...   Nov 26 2009, 13:25
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 26 2009, 14:25) At le...   Nov 26 2009, 13:40
- - LukeS   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 25 2009, 02:02) Q...   Nov 25 2009, 09:16
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 09:16) See th...   Nov 25 2009, 10:32
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 25 2009, 09:16) DST wo...   Nov 25 2009, 18:02
|- - simmconn   QUOTE DST would work but I have not found a no low...   Nov 26 2009, 01:31
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (simmconn @ Nov 26 2009, 02:31) QUO...   Nov 26 2009, 03:38
- - rpp3po   Sorry, if I didn't express myself clearly enou...   Nov 25 2009, 12:04
- - Axon   It's a surprisingly well known mod, actually. ...   Nov 25 2009, 19:38
|- - rpp3po   I find it interesting, nevertheless. What equipmen...   Nov 25 2009, 20:38
- - LukeS   Wow, I really am messing thing up lately ; I got ...   Nov 26 2009, 07:27
|- - simmconn   And I just spent one and a half hours to encode an...   Nov 26 2009, 08:16
- - 2Bdecided   Yes, the distortions of SACD are inaudible. Especi...   Nov 26 2009, 15:57
- - Canar   So that's what they mean by "warm" s...   Nov 26 2009, 16:22
- - Axon   If SACD really did have a similar distortion profi...   Nov 26 2009, 21:14
- - SebastianG   Just for kicks and giggles I rewrote most of ...   Nov 27 2009, 03:26
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Nov 27 2009, 03:26) J...   Nov 27 2009, 03:44
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 03:44) T...   Nov 27 2009, 04:14
||- - vincefalks   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Nov 27 2009, 04:14) S...   Nov 27 2009, 05:11
||- - Kees de Visser   There seems to be a growing (niche) market for onl...   Nov 27 2009, 09:02
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 04:11) N...   Nov 27 2009, 10:59
||- - rpp3po   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 05:11) N...   Nov 27 2009, 12:55
|||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (rpp3po @ Nov 27 2009, 11:55) An an...   Nov 27 2009, 13:00
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 26 2009, 23:11) T...   Nov 29 2009, 03:56
|- - rpp3po   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 27 2009, 03:44) H...   Nov 27 2009, 04:16
- - LukeS   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Nov 26 2009, 21:26) J...   Nov 27 2009, 07:33
|- - smack   QUOTE (LukeS @ Nov 27 2009, 07:33) Window...   Nov 27 2009, 11:00
- - .halverhahn   DXD is PCM - just with a bunch of noise above 48kH...   Nov 27 2009, 15:34
|- - rpp3po   Wow! The DXD track is certainly nothing Bruce ...   Nov 27 2009, 17:47
- - spoon   As the noise is constant this shows the levels qui...   Nov 29 2009, 20:54
- - spoon   QUOTE The final amusing aspect to all this is that...   Nov 29 2009, 22:51
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (spoon @ Nov 29 2009, 16:51) QUOTE ...   Nov 30 2009, 06:33
- - spoon   Based on Sebastians good work I have wrapped the d...   Dec 1 2009, 17:49
- - kode54   @spoon: I presume you modified the stage 1 filter ...   Dec 1 2009, 19:55
- - spoon   I thought it was a command line option on dsd2pcm?   Dec 1 2009, 20:15
|- - kode54   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 1 2009, 11:15) I thoug...   Dec 7 2009, 15:32
- - krabapple   This is all peachy for those recording DSD files o...   Dec 2 2009, 06:56
|- - BOBCHEWIE   QUOTE (krabapple @ Dec 1 2009, 23:56) Thi...   Jan 3 2010, 13:33
- - spoon   I might be wrong, but I do not think there are any...   Dec 2 2009, 09:55
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 2 2009, 03:55) I might...   Dec 2 2009, 17:23
- - Martel   QUOTE There are three types of SACDs[9]: * Hy...   Dec 2 2009, 10:35
- - .halverhahn   Just for your information: Wheatus is offering The...   Dec 2 2009, 11:38
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (.halverhahn @ Dec 2 2009, 10:38) J...   Dec 2 2009, 15:11
- - vincefalks   Ok finally my warning was lifted after a little si...   Dec 7 2009, 17:55
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Dec 7 2009, 11:55) QU...   Dec 7 2009, 18:26
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Dec 7 2009, 16:55) I...   Dec 7 2009, 18:33
|- - spoon   Did anyone manage to decode a .dsf file? (such as ...   Dec 8 2009, 10:21
- - Martel   A (square analog) pulse has an infinitely wide spe...   Dec 7 2009, 18:26
- - udauda   I wonder, how come Pro-DSD never comes up with a s...   Jan 4 2010, 13:39
- - rpp3po   Excellent paper, thanks!   Jan 4 2010, 14:31
- - krabapple   I remember this one from a few years back....I for...   Jan 8 2010, 22:05
- - ElfeJoyeux   Hello, I just discovered this awesome topic durin...   Mar 11 2010, 22:34
|- - Hobbit13   QUOTE (ElfeJoyeux @ Mar 11 2010, 22:34) T...   Jul 19 2010, 10:48
- - Sik_Lescinovid   Has anyone so far noticed that when creating a 24 ...   Nov 27 2011, 18:28
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