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How to grab DVD-Audio?
GoaTrancer
post May 29 2005, 15:15
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Okay I have a copy of Dave Tippers Surrounded and I was wondering how I could copy and convert the DVD-Audio part (NOT THE ONE IN THE VIDEO_TS THE REAL DVD-AUDIO PART, I already know how to extract ac3 from vob and convert it!).
Also it seems to have some copy protection called MMCP or something like that, is there a way to get rid of that ?
note: if i asked something stupid, or asked something wrong please don't flame me, as I'm totaly new to DVD-Audio!
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Cyaneyes
post May 29 2005, 15:22
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If you succeed at ripping it, please let us know. smile.gif

There is currently no way to digitally rip DVD-Audio. The only thing you can do is run the analog outs of your DVD-Audio player to your soundcard and record it.
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Borisz
post May 29 2005, 15:26
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What Cyaneyes said. The DVD Audio part is heavily encrypted, as well as encoded into a format that no (source-free) utility can play back so far.

Your best bet is to rip the ac3/dts part from the video_ts part, if any is included.


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tgoose
post May 29 2005, 16:09
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If it's possible to burn DVD Audio, how come we can't rip it back off? Or do domestic DVD burners not write data in the same format as commercial ones are done?
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Jebus
post May 29 2005, 16:10
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You can burn non-encrypted dvd-audio (the encryption is optional).
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Mono
post May 29 2005, 19:23
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QUOTE (GoaTrancer @ May 29 2005, 09:15 AM)
Also it seems to have some copy protection called MMCP or something like that, is there a way to get rid of that ?
*

It's CPPM. And that's the tricky part.


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cynix
post May 29 2005, 21:23
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You can also digitally record it with some modified DVD-A players, which are not cheap. I remember seeing another thread about this here a while ago.
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tgoose
post May 30 2005, 10:54
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QUOTE (Jebus @ May 29 2005, 04:10 PM)
You can burn non-encrypted dvd-audio (the encryption is optional).
*

So if it's at least possible to encrypt using available software, does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
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batagy
post May 30 2005, 11:59
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QUOTE (tgoose @ May 30 2005, 10:54 AM)
does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
*

No, that does not mean unencryption will be possible.

In my opinion, unencrypting of CPPM should not happen. Nowadays, there is the SACD versus DVD-Audio race. My vote is for DVD-Audio. If unencyption of commercial DVD-Audio discs would be possible, the big music labels would not prefer no more the DVD-Audio format, and SACD would get the preference.
So in order to spread DVD-Audio format, it's better to not unencrypt DVD-Audio.
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Defsac
post May 30 2005, 12:06
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QUOTE (tgoose @ May 30 2005, 07:54 PM)
So if it's at least possible to encrypt using available software, does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
*

There's two layers of encryption. The encryption uses a media key block to authenticate the player, which itself is encrypted. The MKB is decrypted using a unique key individual to the player, and compromised keys can be disabled from decrypting future releases, rendering the audio player completely useless.

The only known way to decrpyt the MKB without a throwaway key is brute force, which apart from being incredibly time consuming would have to have a mechanism to detect when the MKB had been correctly decrypted. I believe they've also started using digital watermarking on some releases.

This post has been edited by Defsac: May 30 2005, 12:11
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ATWindsor
post May 30 2005, 12:24
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QUOTE (batagy @ May 30 2005, 02:59 AM)
QUOTE (tgoose @ May 30 2005, 10:54 AM)
does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
*

No, that does not mean unencryption will be possible.

In my opinion, unencrypting of CPPM should not happen. Nowadays, there is the SACD versus DVD-Audio race. My vote is for DVD-Audio. If unencyption of commercial DVD-Audio discs would be possible, the big music labels would not prefer no more the DVD-Audio format, and SACD would get the preference.
So in order to spread DVD-Audio format, it's better to not unencrypt DVD-Audio.
*



They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.

AtW
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Defsac
post May 30 2005, 12:49
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QUOTE (ATWindsor @ May 30 2005, 09:24 PM)
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.

AtW
*

A record executive's worst nightmare. You have to remember that most of the people this type of protection is pitched to don't actually know a lot about technology. Business is their game.

If an analyst with a shiny PhD shows you some positive looking statistics and tells you how effective this new protection is at reducing piracy, you're probably going to agree to it unless it's obscenely expensive to implement. If you went into a major record label and proposed an internet distributed format with no protection you'd get shot down the minute you walked into the boardroom.

What they don't seem to realise is the vast majority of people who download music aren't concerned with fidelity. No matter what protection you put on a disc it will be able to be reproduced somehow, even if only by analogue recording. Yes, you will lose quality but as I said to most downloaders this isn't an issue. The end result is the majority of protection schemes do little to reduce piracy but inconvenience those of us who actually pay for our music.

This post has been edited by Defsac: May 30 2005, 12:50
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mandel
post May 30 2005, 14:04
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QUOTE (ATWindsor @ May 30 2005, 12:24 PM)
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.

AtW
*


At least on SACD you can rip the Redbook CD layer. I am perfectly happy for consumers to not be able to rip and share hi-res content. The record company is never going to turn around and say 'here, have a master quality copy of our album to share with all your mates'. It's not as if an analogue rip of a DVD-A isn't good enough to shove on your mp3 player of choice...
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ATWindsor
post May 30 2005, 14:15
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QUOTE (mandel)
At least on SACD you can rip the Redbook CD layer.  I am perfectly happy for consumers to not be able to rip and share hi-res content.  The record company is never going to turn around and say 'here, have a master quality copy of our album to share with all your mates'.  It's not as if an analogue rip of a DVD-A isn't good enough to shove on your mp3 player of choice...
*


I have all my music on my computer, not just my mp3-player, what if you want to have good quality and not use the damn discs all the time? As a consumer i would like the freedom of having the music on my media of choiche. To be frank, i think the industry is just alianating more consumers by making origianl products so restrictive. (why am i forced to see a stupid anti-piracy ad on my ORIGINAL dvd, when it's sure to be removed on the copy, for example).

But I guess they won't listen to me sad.gif

AtW
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Defsac
post May 30 2005, 14:36
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QUOTE (mandel @ May 30 2005, 11:04 PM)
The record company is never going to turn around and say 'here, have a master quality copy of our album to share with all your mates'. ..
*

Or even "here, we won't put ineffective protection methods on our media so you can listen to high fidelity audio without switching discs every 10 minutes". A man can dream.

This post has been edited by Defsac: May 30 2005, 14:38
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Synaptic Line No...
post May 30 2005, 20:06
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QUOTE (ATWindsor @ May 30 2005, 06:24 AM)
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.

AtW
*


I see no end to the SACD vs DVDA war.
This will confuse consumers and ultimately the industry loses.


Unless if Sony refuses to license SACD to the pornographic music industry.
(that was a Beta joke)
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mickywicky
post May 30 2005, 22:51
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Forgive the potentially stupid question, but... how about using an optical cable, connect the optical-out of the DVD-A player to the optical-in of something else, and record that? Would that not be lossless?
The only thing is, I haven't played aroudn with this for long enough to guess whether the recording will include, say, all channels of the DVD-A or whether you'll just end up with Stereo sound.
Any thoughts?
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Lyx
post May 30 2005, 23:05
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buying DVD-audio = "i dont need portability"

Keep that in mind when you buy a DVD-audio the next time.

Of course - if the album/video is at least a bit popular.... there are those unnamable ways to get an unprotected copy, so that you can play it on other devices as well. It doesn't really matter which method you choose, because practicing fair-use in this case would be illegal anways.

And concerning the music/movie-*industry* - who cares? They're obsolete and to the disadvantage of the consumers and content-creators anways.


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blackstripe
post May 30 2005, 23:50
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QUOTE (mickywicky @ May 30 2005, 01:51 PM)
Forgive the potentially stupid question, but... how about using an optical cable, connect the optical-out of the DVD-A player to the optical-in of something else, and record that? Would that not be lossless?
The only thing is, I haven't played aroudn with this for long enough to guess whether the recording will include, say, all channels of the DVD-A or whether you'll just end up with Stereo sound.
Any thoughts?
*


I believe that there is something in the DVD-A spec that prevents it from being output digitally, so that wouldn't really work.
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Cygnus X1
post May 31 2005, 00:05
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QUOTE (blackstripe @ May 30 2005, 05:50 PM)
QUOTE (mickywicky @ May 30 2005, 01:51 PM)
Forgive the potentially stupid question, but... how about using an optical cable, connect the optical-out of the DVD-A player to the optical-in of something else, and record that? Would that not be lossless?
The only thing is, I haven't played aroudn with this for long enough to guess whether the recording will include, say, all channels of the DVD-A or whether you'll just end up with Stereo sound.
Any thoughts?
*


I believe that there is something in the DVD-A spec that prevents it from being output digitally, so that wouldn't really work.
*



That's true for SACD, but not DVD-A, IIRC. I briefly played around with a Pioneer 578a "universal" player and remember it being able to output DVD-A through the S/PDIF, though in stereo and at a 48kHz sampling rate. SACD won't give you any digital connections, period (which sort of makes the whole argument over its supposed "higher resolution" seem kind of funny!).

This post has been edited by Cygnus X1: May 31 2005, 01:09
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Jojo
post May 31 2005, 00:05
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there's one thing I've always wondered about. If a regular DVD player everyone can buy in stores has a decryption key, why hasn't someone found a method yet to extract one of those keys and make it available for everyone. Maybe they could even find the algorithm to generate new keys...because I doubt that every DVD player has an unique key, which is stored on every DVD. I guess they just use a bunch of master keys...

Also, are computer DVD drives able to play DVD Audio? If that's the case what prevents someone from capturing the stream, kinda what they do with DRM protected files. However, since DVD-Audio is lossless you won't loose any quality in opposite to most DRM protected files...

ANd here's another thing: if that method is so effective why aren't all DVD's encrypted then? It wouldn't people prevent from burning DVD's but they could stop people from sharing ripped stuff...


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Cygnus X1
post May 31 2005, 01:32
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QUOTE (Jojo @ May 30 2005, 06:05 PM)
ANd here's another thing: if that method is so effective why aren't all DVD's encrypted then? It wouldn't people prevent from burning DVD's but they could stop people from sharing ripped stuff...
*


The vast majority of commercial DVD's ARE encrypted, but unlike DVD-Video, DVD-A's encryption system is newer and has yet to be cracked. DVD-Video uses relatively weak 40-bit CSS encryption, and was cracked in 1999 or so, which delayed the launch of DVD-A. The industry, seeing that the DVD-video system had already been cracked, choose to use a newer system (CCPM) that still hasn't been defeated. The only way to "copy" a DVD-A is to capture it at a lower sampling rate in realtime, or in analog.

Moral of the story: unless you plan on never listening to a particular recording outside of your living room, don't buy DVD-A or SACD. Aside from the often-gimmicky multichannel capabilities, I've yet to see any compelling evidence that they do anything better than the plain-old CD's we've had laying around for twenty years.
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DigitalMan
post May 31 2005, 05:53
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QUOTE (batagy @ May 30 2005, 02:59 AM)
QUOTE (tgoose @ May 30 2005, 10:54 AM)
does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
*

No, that does not mean unencryption will be possible.

In my opinion, unencrypting of CPPM should not happen. Nowadays, there is the SACD versus DVD-Audio race. My vote is for DVD-Audio. If unencyption of commercial DVD-Audio discs would be possible, the big music labels would not prefer no more the DVD-Audio format, and SACD would get the preference.
So in order to spread DVD-Audio format, it's better to not unencrypt DVD-Audio.
*



SACD vs. DVD-Audio is a race that nobody cares about. Remember that LPs outsell SACD and DVD-Audio COMBINED in 2005. They are both technically somewhat interesting and commercially a bad joke. I really doubt that merely unencrypting either format can save them from the DAT/8-track/DCC/Elcasette dustbin of audio debacles.


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cynix
post May 31 2005, 10:19
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Is there a way to rip unencrypted DVD-A then?
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batagy
post May 31 2005, 10:41
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QUOTE (Jojo @ May 31 2005, 12:05 AM)
Also, are computer DVD drives able to play DVD Audio? If that's the case what prevents someone from capturing the stream, kinda what they do with DRM protected files. However, since DVD-Audio is lossless you won't loose any quality in opposite to most DRM protected files...
*

Yes, DVD Audio discs can be played on DVD drives. The drive itself doesn't matter. Which is matter is the playing software. As far as I know, currently PowerDVD 6 and WinDVD 6 is able to play DVD Audio discs, however to play CPPM encrypted discs, a personal license key for CPPM or something similar is required, which can be purchased separately.
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