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Lame VBR Preset doesn't work properly in EAC ?, EAC Bitrate opt. influences VBR preset ?
Gen912
post May 6 2005, 01:02
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Although I am fairly new to encoding music, I read all the advice on Hydrogenaudio and Übernet and have a pretty good idea on how I want to encode my CD's. After reading the advice and some experimenting I decided to go with:

- EAC 0.9 beta 4
- LAME 3.97 alpha 10 (not the recommended version on Hydrogen, but it works swift and clean each time. Sorry JohnV...)
- VBR preset standard, which levels out at a bitrate of around 192.
(for this I used the command line parameter %s %d --preset standard, can anybody tell me if this is correct? Because I found some different examples around. I ended up going with the examples from the Lame project site http://lame.sourceforge.net/doc/html/presets.html )

Now, what I would expect from the EAC software is that additional fields would be grayed out when using the command line option, but this is not the case. And there are some options that require a value that confuses me. The one that specifically confuses me is the option Bitrate, right under the command line box. When I don't use a Lame preset I obviously have to set the desired bitrate for the codec here, but when I use a command line preset I still wants me to choose a value here, and it also does seem to have an effect.

I read the following thread which explains how it should work
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php? act=ST&f=1&t=6671&st=25#entry67461
but it it doesn't make sense to me that a VBR preset should have a minimum bitrate.

When I choose VBR 192 from the dropdown list, the preset doesn't drop below a 192 bitrate. Not really what I expect with the preset standard, only the preset extreme is said to not drop below 192. To have the preset standard drop below 192 I have to set it to for instance VBR 96, which is the lowest value I can choose for.
I use the option external screen for codec, and I can clearly see the difference between the two bitrate options. With 192 it uses 192 and all the bitrate steps above, and with 96 it also uses all the steps below 192 up until 96. So no 64, no 32 and no 0 bitrates sequences for silences, which TMHO doesn't make sense for a VBR preset.
I tried the same command line with audiograbber (which when using command line grays out most other options, and has an option user defined in the dropdown list), and it reacts different from EAC, giving a smaller file size of some Mb's.
I also tried with the recommended Lame 3.90, but the result is the same.

Can anybody tell me what this option does? It does looks like it works as a minimum bitrate option, just like the thread mentioned above says, but I can't find it documented anywhere. The radio button directly under there on the right allowing for HIGH or LOW Quality also doesn't make any sense to me. Does this have any influence on the results?

Secondly, the tab LAME DLL under compression options confuses me. Again, a preset is said to have its own specific tweaks inside the codec thus giving the best results and not needing any other settings; for example Joint Stereo is a standard option in the presets, but other options can be selected here.
Further options are (again) Quality, Maximum VBR Bitrate and the option to choose between VBR Quality and VBR Average Bitrate with an additional value setting.

Seeing that the Bitrate field I mentioned above does seem to have an effect, makes me wonder if these settings have an effect on the end results. And if they do.... WHY?? It doesn't make any sense to me that a command line preset needs additional settings from the encoding software. I read several threads on Hydrogenaudio where it is assured that a preset with additional (command line) settings is unnecessary and can even negatively influence the tweaks from a preset.

Could any body shed some light on this for me? I guess to sum my questions up, they are:
1 - The setting in the Bitrate field on the tab External Compression seems to have an effect on the end result. What does it do? And more importantly; why influence a Command Line Preset?
2 - Do the settings on the tab LAME DLL under compression options have an additional effect on the end result? And again, if so; why?
3 - Does anybody know if these effects have been documented anywhere? I read the EAC Bible from the Coaster Factory, and several other pages on EAC, but couldn't find anything about the above results.

Thanks a mil in advance.

Gen


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sld
post May 6 2005, 12:48
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For the version of LAME you are using, there's no reason to use the raw presets since they have been 'renamed' to the Quality Level parameters.
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Gen912
post May 7 2005, 04:37
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QUOTE (sld @ May 6 2005, 01:48 PM)
For the version of LAME you are using, there's no reason to use the raw presets since they have been 'renamed' to the Quality Level parameters.
*


Show me where I can find this documented and I will go with it. 'Till then I'll go with the documentation that came with this version of Lame, which still speaks of this preset (and two others) for VBR.


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Gambit
post May 7 2005, 14:41
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QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 7 2005, 04:37 AM)
QUOTE (sld @ May 6 2005, 01:48 PM)
For the version of LAME you are using, there's no reason to use the raw presets since they have been 'renamed' to the Quality Level parameters.
*


Show me where I can find this documented and I will go with it. 'Till then I'll go with the documentation that came with this version of Lame, which still speaks of this preset (and two others) for VBR.
*



http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=18091

Please get your facts right before you post nonsense again.

Edit: The page you linked to is heavily outdated and contains some false info.

This post has been edited by Gambit: May 7 2005, 14:45


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Gen912
post May 8 2005, 00:13
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QUOTE (Gambit @ May 7 2005, 03:41 PM)
QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 7 2005, 04:37 AM)
QUOTE (sld @ May 6 2005, 01:48 PM)
For the version of LAME you are using, there's no reason to use the raw presets since they have been 'renamed' to the Quality Level parameters.
*


Show me where I can find this documented and I will go with it. 'Till then I'll go with the documentation that came with this version of Lame, which still speaks of this preset (and two others) for VBR.
*



http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=18091

Please get your facts right before you post nonsense again.

Edit: The page you linked to is heavily outdated and contains some false info.
*



Thank you Gambit for your constructive and friendly post. If you feel so incredibly superior because you're a developer, please don't bother me with it. dry.gif

Like I said at the beginning of my topic; I'm fairly new to encoding music.
I ám trying to get my "facts" right. I read all the faqs at Hydrogen, several commentaries about Lame, several guides about EAC, and so on. I have been reading about encoding and trying for three months before I put up this topic. But three months isn't a lot of time if you're trying to make some beginners sense out of the shitload of information that has been written about encoding music. Especially since a lot of the information contradicts each other.

When somebody makes a statement I prefer it being backed up by a link to a post or site, so I can read it for myself. (call me a wiseass, I call it sensible) Next to all the wisdom that has been written about encoding music, there has also been written a lot of nonsense. (as you put it)

I actually read the post you linked to, but didn't make the mental connection to it when I read SLD's post.
So, SLD, my apologies for not understanding your drift without a link to this post.
Also, I didn't know that, even though old (2001), the radified page I linked to had become outdated or contained false info.

Still remains the question: Does using -V2 give you the same advantages in tweaks as the --preset standard used to give? Because that's actually why I prefer(-red) to go with the presets.

The thing is; I want to encode my music in the best though reasonably simple way. I don't have the ambition to become an expert in encoding music, and the presets seemed to be the simplest way, giving the best results.
But maybe presets are not the way to go anyway after reading this post http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ST&f=16&t=3594# by Dibrom. Although I don't know whether this info has become outdated and whether this only goes for the presets or for VBR in general.

Anyway, Gambit, I will do try to do better in getting my facts straight, in order not to step on your superior toes anymore. tongue.gif


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Gambit
post May 8 2005, 03:04
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QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 8 2005, 12:13 AM)
Thank you Gambit for your constructive and friendly post. If you feel so incredibly superior because you're a developer, please don't bother me with it.  dry.gif
*


I'd feel superior if I was dating Jessica Alba or had an xxbox dick or even knew how they make that damn three color stripes toothpaste... But certainly not because I'm a "developer".

Anyway, I'm sorry if that came over a bit rude, but it's frustrating seeing new user do the same mistakes over and over and sometimes it's just too much. So don't take it too serious, cause I sure don't.


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Gen912
post May 8 2005, 04:17
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QUOTE (Gambit @ May 8 2005, 04:04 AM)
QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 8 2005, 12:13 AM)
Thank you Gambit for your constructive and friendly post. If you feel so incredibly superior because you're a developer, please don't bother me with it.  dry.gif
*


I'd feel superior if I was dating Jessica Alba or had an xxbox dick or even knew how they make that damn three color stripes toothpaste... But certainly not because I'm a "developer".

Anyway, I'm sorry if that came over a bit rude, but it's frustrating seeing new user do the same mistakes over and over and sometimes it's just too much. So don't take it too serious, cause I sure don't.
*




Ok, thanks. I won't take it too serious then either.
Hehheh, I guess some of the questions are being asked over and over again, despite all the information shared by more experienced users.

But belief me, it's quite a jungle of information for a new user. One moment you're out buying an MP3 player because of the freedom it gives, being able to take your music outdoors and all.... The next moment you're stuck indoors behind the monitor of your computer for month on end, trying to figure out how to best encode your music, reading forum after forum untill your eyes are so dry you can hardly open them after blinking...

And yeah..., however do they make that damned three color striped toothpaste?
Maybe I can help you with that by directing you here:
http://www.ratlab.co.uk/toothpaste.htm
or here:
http://www.mindlesscrap.com/stumpme/03-02.htm#0302c
Sorry, but I can't help you with getting a date with Jessica Alba... biggrin.gif


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Posts in this topic
- Gen912   Lame VBR Preset doesn't work properly in EAC ?   May 6 2005, 01:02
- - shadowking   Use these options with lame 3.96 / 97 Parameter p...   May 6 2005, 01:34
- - HisInfernalMajesty   I've actually had this problem before as well....   May 6 2005, 02:42
- - Martin H   When being in "Lame mp3 encoder" passing...   May 6 2005, 03:03
|- - HisInfernalMajesty   QUOTE (HisInfernalMajesty @ May 5 2005, 03:42...   May 6 2005, 14:07
- - Gen912   QUOTE (shadowking @ May 6 2005, 02:34 AM)Comm...   May 6 2005, 04:23
|- - Gambit   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 6 2005, 04:23 AM)QUOTE (s...   May 6 2005, 10:43
||- - Gen912   QUOTE (Gambit @ May 6 2005, 11:43 AM)QUOTE (G...   May 7 2005, 04:25
||- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 7 2005, 04:25 AM)You...   May 7 2005, 08:05
||- - Gen912   QUOTE (guruboolez @ May 7 2005, 09:05 AM)QUOT...   May 8 2005, 00:21
||- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 8 2005, 12:21 AM)Does usi...   May 8 2005, 00:40
|||- - Gen912   QUOTE (guruboolez @ May 8 2005, 01:40 AM)What...   May 8 2005, 00:54
||- - Jojo   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 7 2005, 03:21 PM)Still re...   May 8 2005, 01:37
||- - Gen912   QUOTE (Jojo @ May 8 2005, 02:37 AM)QUOTE (Gen...   May 8 2005, 02:53
||- - Jojo   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 7 2005, 05:53 PM)Jojo, wh...   May 8 2005, 17:49
||- - Gen912   QUOTE (Jojo @ May 8 2005, 06:49 PM)QUOTE (Gen...   May 9 2005, 02:16
|- - Never_Again   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 5 2005, 11:23 PM)QUOTE (s...   May 6 2005, 21:49
|- - Gambit   QUOTE (Never_Again @ May 6 2005, 09:49 PM)QUO...   May 6 2005, 23:18
- - Martin H   If you select "User defined encoder" the...   May 6 2005, 05:50
- - sld   For the version of LAME you are using, there's...   May 6 2005, 12:48
|- - Gen912   QUOTE (sld @ May 6 2005, 01:48 PM)For the ver...   May 7 2005, 04:37
|- - Gambit   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 7 2005, 04:37 AM)QUOTE (s...   May 7 2005, 14:41
|- - Gen912   QUOTE (Gambit @ May 7 2005, 03:41 PM)QUOTE (G...   May 8 2005, 00:13
|- - Gambit   QUOTE (Gen912 @ May 8 2005, 12:13 AM)Thank yo...   May 8 2005, 03:04
|- - Gen912   QUOTE (Gambit @ May 8 2005, 04:04 AM)QUOTE (G...   May 8 2005, 04:17
- - A_Man_Eating_Duck   Maybe this could help Eac and Lame Wiki entry   May 6 2005, 12:58
- - schonenberg   I will never again set the encoder to "Lame M...   May 6 2005, 13:32


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