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Which is the best lossless codec?, Discussion thread
kotrtim
post Nov 26 2004, 05:40
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1. LOWER COMPRESSION BUT HIGHER CPU USAGE
2. NO COMPRESSION MODE TO SELECT

EDIT : But compared with Monkey's Audio, WMA still use more power.

WMA = 34.0MB = ~13% CPU Usage
Monkey's Audio - High = 33.7MB = ~7% CPU Usage

This post has been edited by kotrtim: Nov 26 2004, 06:17
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kurtnoise
post Dec 9 2004, 19:21
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For TTA :

Encoding Speed : fast
Decoding Speed : fast
Compression : ~55%
Flexibility : bad
Error Handling : I don't think so
Seeking : yes
Tagging : yes
Hardware Support : yes ~~> available in standalone player
Software Support : good
Hybrid/Lossy : no
ReplayGain : yes
Streaming : no
OpenSource : yes
Multichannel : yes
High Resolution : yes
OS Support : All


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http://www.unite-video.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5412 :: An overview of all lossless Audio Formats (in french language ;-)
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rjamorim
post Dec 9 2004, 19:45
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Excellent. Thank-you for the info. I just updates the table and the post.

QUOTE (kurtnoise @ Dec 9 2004, 03:21 PM)
Compression : ~55%
*


Actually, according to Hans Heijden's comparision, it's closer to 57%.

Unless you take into consideration their own highly biased (and badly outdated) comparisions wink.gif

QUOTE
Hardware Support : yes ~~> available in standalone player


Hrm... OK, if people consider DVD player support as "hardware support"

(I don't think it's much different than claiming WMA Lossless has hardware support because it can be played on the XBox)

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Dec 9 2004, 19:57


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buzzy
post Dec 9 2004, 20:56
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Nice work.

As some of the comments here suggest, the point of this is for a given person to decide best not in some theoretical sense, but best for a specific use they have in mind. So, for example, the best format for file sharing (like etree) is clearly flac. But someone in search of the best format for archiving their CDs might decide that the absolute best file compression is the only criterion that matters.

So some intro / comment to that that effect - that best depends on how you weight the factors you've listed - will probably help the thousands of newbies who will read this thread.

Also, the table might need a bit of a key or explanation of what some of the items mean, rather than expecting people to read the whole thread.

As for hardware support, it's much more about whether the codec lends itself to that application - which will matter much more over time than it does now. Even with faster / cheaper hardware, the codecs with high complexity decoding don't look like good bets.

Ease of use / interface is a little different than what you might have in mind for "software support" - but has always been a strong point of Monkey's and should be for ALAC. And is a relative weakness of flac, for widespread (as opposed to "technology enthusiast") use.

But "software support" is a bit unclear - people would keep using shn forever for music sharing if someone was maintaining GUI tools for it on Windows. But that's not the case. mkwACT, for example. In practice, the lack of easy to use software tools for shn are what's going to kill it. And if the tools were better for flac, the shift tfrom shn to flac would happen a lot faster.

This post has been edited by buzzy: Dec 9 2004, 21:06
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rjamorim
post Dec 10 2004, 21:13
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QUOTE (buzzy @ Dec 9 2004, 04:56 PM)
As some of the comments here suggest, the point of this is for a given person to decide best not in some theoretical sense, but best for a specific use they have in mind.  So, for example, the best format for file sharing (like etree) is clearly flac.  But someone in search of the best format for archiving their CDs might decide that the absolute best file compression is the only criterion that matters.

So some intro / comment to that that effect - that best depends on how you weight the factors you've listed - will probably help the thousands of newbies who will read this thread.


Good point, I'll work on an introduction.

QUOTE
Also, the table might need a bit of a key or explanation of what some of the items mean, rather than expecting people to read the whole thread.


Well, I would expect people to know at least a little about lossless codecs before coming to this thread. And I think most features are pretty self-explaining: open source, multichannel, hardware support, streaming, seeking, tagging...

QUOTE
As for hardware support, it's much more about whether the codec lends itself to that application - which will matter much more over time than it does now.  Even with faster / cheaper hardware, the codecs with high complexity decoding don't look like good bets.


That would then becoming mostly speculation about wether a codec is probably going to become supported in hardware or not. I think the current format - where only codecs that already have hardware support are mentioned - is more clear.

QUOTE
Ease of use / interface is a little different than what you might have in mind for "software support" - but has always been a strong point of Monkey's and should be for ALAC.  And is a relative weakness of flac, for widespread (as opposed to "technology enthusiast") use.


"software support" means how many software apps are able to deal with that format -be them players, encoders, frontends, replaygain calculators, splitters... It's not supposed to mean ease of use.

QUOTE
But "software support" is a bit unclear - people would keep using shn forever for music sharing if someone was maintaining GUI tools for it on Windows. 
*


I disagree. People are leaving SHN because it's featureless, compresses bad and is overall badly designed. It's not because people aren't maintaining GUI tools, IMO.



Edit: Shit, 6000 posts and I didn't even notice it.

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Dec 10 2004, 22:53


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Posts in this topic
- kotrtim   Which is the best lossless codec?   Nov 26 2004, 05:40
- - rjamorim   Thanks. I added "unefficient" to WMA...   Nov 26 2004, 05:50
- - kotrtim   roberto , i'm so sorry wma compression is a bi...   Nov 26 2004, 06:04
- - sshd   1. inefficient not unefficient 2. Neither FLAC no...   Nov 26 2004, 06:09
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (sshd @ Nov 26 2004, 06:09 AM)2. Neithe...   Nov 26 2004, 14:40
|- - jcoalson   this table is nice, good to finally have a sticky ...   Nov 28 2004, 11:51
|- - sshd   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Nov 28 2004, 11:51 AM)QUOTE...   Nov 28 2004, 16:16
|- - sehested   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Nov 28 2004, 02:51 AM)for t...   Nov 28 2004, 17:13
- - BoraBora   Another lossless comparison (in french, but the ta...   Nov 26 2004, 09:30
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (kotrtim @ Nov 26 2004, 02:04 AM)I...   Nov 26 2004, 13:12
- - Garf   <zealot> I see no reason to put very fast d...   Nov 26 2004, 13:39
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Garf @ Nov 26 2004, 09:39 AM)<zealo...   Nov 26 2004, 13:53
- - kurtnoise   Some notes about RALF : I made some quick tests w...   Nov 26 2004, 14:44
- - guruboolez   I forgot: nice initiative Roberto. Two comments: ...   Nov 26 2004, 14:44
- - kotrtim   according to the player itself (Itunes n Real) App...   Nov 26 2004, 15:28
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Nov 26 2004, 10:40 AM)I...   Nov 26 2004, 18:36
|- - HansHeijden   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Nov 26 2004, 06:36 PM)Since...   Nov 26 2004, 20:17
- - guruboolez   Another suggestion: what about "adaptability...   Nov 26 2004, 18:52
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Nov 26 2004, 02:52 PM)Som...   Nov 26 2004, 19:13
- - guruboolez   I would say "none" rather than "bad...   Nov 26 2004, 19:17
- - kotrtim   QUOTE Haha, dude, you said yourself Real is very f...   Nov 27 2004, 04:48
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (HansHeijden @ Nov 26 2004, 04:17 PM)Ed...   Nov 27 2004, 21:33
- - Zurman   How about an overall notation system? 3 points for...   Nov 28 2004, 20:56
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (Zurman @ Nov 28 2004, 08:56 PM)How abo...   Nov 29 2004, 10:18
- - BoraBora   About OS support: I understand what it means, but ...   Nov 28 2004, 23:50
- - WaldoMonster   Nice work. I'm missing native ReplayGain in t...   Nov 28 2004, 23:52
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (WaldoMonster @ Nov 28 2004, 07:52 PM)I...   Nov 29 2004, 00:34
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Nov 28 2004, 07:51 AM)for t...   Nov 29 2004, 00:26
|- - Zurman   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Nov 28 2004, 03:26 PM)QUOTE...   Nov 29 2004, 01:53
||- - dev0   QUOTE (Zurman @ Nov 29 2004, 01:53 AM)Just to...   Nov 29 2004, 06:33
|- - BoraBora   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Nov 29 2004, 01:26 AM)For l...   Nov 29 2004, 09:20
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Nov 28 2004, 06:26 PM)QUOTE...   Nov 30 2004, 06:20
- - Tang   Hi, Very nice THREAD thanks to Amorim and every co...   Nov 29 2004, 07:20
|- - music_man_mpc   QUOTE (Tang @ Nov 28 2004, 10:20 PM)Recently ...   Nov 29 2004, 08:57
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (music_man_mpc @ Nov 29 2004, 08:57 AM)...   Nov 29 2004, 10:40
|- - Tang   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Nov 29 2004, 01:40 AM)QUO...   Nov 30 2004, 04:35
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (dev0 @ Nov 29 2004, 02:33 AM)I don...   Nov 29 2004, 13:23
|- - guruboolez   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Nov 29 2004, 01:23 PM)Indee...   Nov 29 2004, 14:22
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Nov 29 2004, 10:22 AM)Is ...   Nov 29 2004, 14:29
- - guruboolez   You're right. I had in might asymetrical with ...   Nov 29 2004, 14:34
- - GeSomeone   RJAmorim, I think it would be a good idea to add v...   Dec 2 2004, 13:42
|- - Faelix   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Dec 2 2004, 09:42 AM)Anoth...   Dec 2 2004, 14:12
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (GeSomeone @ Dec 2 2004, 09:42 AM)I thi...   Dec 9 2004, 18:43
- - kurtnoise   For TTA : Encoding Speed : fast Decoding Speed : ...   Dec 9 2004, 19:21
|- - rjamorim   Excellent. Thank-you for the info. I just updates ...   Dec 9 2004, 19:45
|- - buzzy   Nice work. As some of the comments here suggest, ...   Dec 9 2004, 20:56
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (buzzy @ Dec 9 2004, 04:56 PM)As some o...   Dec 10 2004, 21:13
|- - buzzy   Sorry, the comment about hardware support was a re...   Dec 13 2004, 20:33
- - guruboolez   LA has both seeking and tagging functionality. I c...   Dec 9 2004, 21:08
- - Mindaxiz   EDIT: --post deleted-- Looks like TTA has been ...   Dec 9 2004, 22:44
- - Mindaxiz   Rjamorim, you either edited the table super fast o...   Dec 9 2004, 23:52
- - evereux   This spreadsheet is an excellent reference, thanks...   Dec 10 2004, 15:36
- - guruboolez   very slow seeking could be highly irritating. I ne...   Dec 10 2004, 15:48
- - rjamorim   Hello. I just added a new table design, and would ...   Dec 10 2004, 16:14
- - rjamorim   I just edited the main post. Here are some comment...   Dec 10 2004, 16:32
- - rjamorim   Since I was already playing with my test streams, ...   Dec 10 2004, 17:06
- - roweezy   WMAL / WMA Lossless 9.1 DOES support 24bit / 24-b...   Jan 1 2005, 04:23
- - Zurman   I think there's a mistak in the table : Monkey...   Jan 3 2005, 19:37
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Zurman @ Jan 3 2005, 03:37 PM)I think ...   Jan 3 2005, 19:48
|- - Zurman   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Jan 3 2005, 10:48 AM)QUOTE ...   Jan 3 2005, 20:08
- - Erich w/ an h   are the percentages in the original post based on ...   Jan 10 2005, 10:22
- - Skymmer   Here is another suggestion and test... As you know...   Jan 22 2005, 04:36
|- - rjamorim   Thanks for that test you did. I am considering add...   Jan 24 2005, 00:05
- - jcoalson   even better would be if a codec could store all AI...   Jan 22 2005, 06:04
- - Skymmer   Quite agree but I'm pretty sure that formats w...   Jan 22 2005, 06:34
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (Skymmer @ Jan 22 2005, 12:34 AM)Quite ...   Jan 23 2005, 18:56
- - Skymmer   OK. Again 10 seconds brown noise but without any m...   Jan 22 2005, 07:22
- - Skymmer   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jan 23 2005, 08:56 PM)anywa...   Jan 23 2005, 19:53
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (Skymmer @ Jan 23 2005, 01:53 PM)QUOTE ...   Jan 24 2005, 01:13
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jan 23 2005, 10:13 PM)my co...   Jan 24 2005, 01:28
|- - kjoonlee   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jan 24 2005, 09:13 AM)2. wh...   Jan 24 2005, 03:01
- - Skymmer   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Jan 24 2005, 02:05 AM)Thank...   Jan 24 2005, 02:11
|- - jcoalson   QUOTE (Skymmer @ Jan 23 2005, 08:11 PM)QUOTE ...   Jan 24 2005, 08:57
- - adlai   my take as a dumb end-user. MAC is the best. Best...   Jan 24 2005, 02:35
|- - Skymmer   QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 24 2005, 04:35 AM)MAC is t...   Jan 24 2005, 02:57
|- - buzzy   QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 23 2005, 08:35 PM)MAC is t...   Feb 12 2005, 18:27
|- - johnsonlam   To be short: Everyone who create a free loseless c...   Feb 12 2005, 18:48
- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (jcoalson @ Jan 24 2005, 07:57 AM)QUOTE...   Jan 24 2005, 09:38
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Jan 24 2005, 06:38 AM...   Jan 24 2005, 14:52
- - m0rbidini   Is it difficult to guarantee full reconstruction o...   Jan 24 2005, 10:23
- - Synthetic Soul   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Jan 24 2005, 01:52 PM)No fl...   Jan 24 2005, 20:43
- - Mindaxiz   QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Jan 24 2005, 02:43 PM...   Jan 24 2005, 21:11
|- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Mindaxiz @ Jan 24 2005, 06:11 PM)I am ...   Jan 24 2005, 23:33
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (Erich w/ an h @ Jan 10 2005, 07:22 AM)...   Feb 2 2005, 04:54
- - guruboolez   I've selected one mono album for my classical ...   Feb 3 2005, 08:19
- - p0wder   I recently converted from FLAC to Wavpack in order...   Feb 3 2005, 10:10
|- - Polar   QUOTE (p0wder @ Feb 3 2005, 09:10 UTC)I'm...   Feb 3 2005, 12:39
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 3 2005, 05:19 AM)I...   Feb 3 2005, 15:30
- - rutra80   How about adding to the "Tagging" row th...   Feb 8 2005, 20:35
- - WaldoMonster   Adding "PIPE support" to the table would...   Feb 11 2005, 15:46
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (rutra80 @ Feb 8 2005, 05:35 PM)How abo...   Feb 11 2005, 19:31
|- - WaldoMonster   QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 11 2005, 10:31 PM)Well,...   Feb 11 2005, 22:43
- - rjamorim   QUOTE (buzzy @ Feb 12 2005, 03:27 PM)An examp...   Feb 12 2005, 23:17
- - johnsonlam   QUOTE One sentence: competition is good. I agree....   Feb 13 2005, 17:32
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