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[Discussion] List of recommended LAME settings, V2 (for LAME 3.97)
DARcode
post Sep 18 2005, 11:42
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QUOTE (jaybeee @ Sep 16 2005, 09:20 PM)
Not sure if it's been mentioned or already linked to (didn't see it), but this EAC guide and info is very useful.
*

I'm w/ jaybee, as far as EAC only goes I always recommend that one.


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Gabriel
post Sep 23 2005, 16:10
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*bitrate ranges:

V1 is now probably in the 200-250kbps range (not 220260), and V0 in the 230-260kbps range (not 245285)

*recommended vbr settings table:
I am not sure if there is a need to have lines with Vx and with Vx --vbr-new, as the bitrate ranges are identical.
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user
post Sep 23 2005, 17:45
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QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 23 2005, 04:10 PM)
*recommended vbr settings table:
I am not sure if there is a need to have lines with Vx and with Vx --vbr-new, as the bitrate ranges are identical.
*


Thanks for the bitrate ranges.

The 2 lines, each with -V x & -V x --vbr-new, were written there to give clearly both alternatives, (until 1 of the vbr modes is proven to be (clearly?) superior than the other).
Is the question, if --vbr-new is superior to default vbr mode, decided ?
(at least for one or more -Vx settings)
In such cases, we remove the inferior commandline.

Because, iirc, now we consider --vbr-new to be (slightly?) better, should I edit the settings table, and write each setting with vbr-new switch above the standard -V setting ?
(because we wrote at top of table, that table goes from highest quality settings to lower quality settings)
Eg.
-V x --vbr-new
-V x
instead of current layout:
-V x
-V x --vbr-new

edit-addon:
Due to the general impression to prefer --vbr-ne qualitywise, I have already carried my above idea, to write --vbr-new presets over the standard -V settings.

This post has been edited by user: Sep 23 2005, 18:08


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MJT
post Sep 23 2005, 22:44
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The first link on the post goes to a page for 3.98 alpha 2, although the actual download page has a link to 3.97b1. Perhaps it's better to link to rarewares as a default and free-codecs as the alternative?
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Gabriel
post Sep 24 2005, 09:25
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Why not just mentionning the -V values without --vbr-new in the table, and mentionning that for each -V setting you can choose between --vbr-old and --vbr-new, vbr-old beeing the default setting but vbr-new beeing of slightly higher quality and faster.

I think that you also need to drop a line indicating that vbr-new is faster because of the use of a different algorithm than vbr-old, otherwise many people seem to be suspicious about vbr-new, as in their mind faster == lower quality.
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moozooh
post Sep 24 2005, 19:27
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QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 24 2005, 11:25 AM)
otherwise many people seem to be suspicious about vbr-new, as in their mind faster == lower quality.
*

Well, if you make it the default VBR setting, they won't even notice. I don't see a single countercause. :|


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Cosmo
post Sep 24 2005, 20:49
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If the new vbr algorithm is now in fact faster and equal or higher quality, it seems like a mistake not to make it the default just because of potential unfounded suspicions. Isn't it most appropriate and logical to send/receive the message that the default settings are the best ones? I see it as punishing the people who use good judgement and trust the default presets, and rewarding the people who would second-guess (think they know better than) the developers.
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moozooh
post Sep 24 2005, 23:44
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Not to mention the fact that the speed and quality increase from ---vbr-new may help to attract new audience…

Oh wait.
It's not a commercial project.

Nevermind then. :B


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Canar
post Sep 25 2005, 00:27
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So does --vbr-new provide noticably worse quality than the default VBR mode? I remember seeing some listening tests that implied that there are cases in which --vbr-new outperforms the default. I might be mistaken, however.


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VCSkier
post Sep 25 2005, 06:05
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as it has been stated before, --vbr-new has shown (particularly by guruboolez, but also by others) to generally have better quality, and generally has been accepted as the higher quality vbr mode. as with many things of this nature, some samples have been found where --vbr-new has some more noticable artifacts than the default, but most of the time, based on the tests of the members here, --vbr-new performs better.

edit: typo

This post has been edited by VCSkier: Sep 25 2005, 06:06


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Gabriel
post Sep 25 2005, 10:13
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*vbr-new seems to be better overall than vbr-old on the 0-5 range, but at lower quality settings, we are into the unknown world.

*vbr-new will NOT be defaulted in 3.97
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Madrigal
post Sep 25 2005, 11:16
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QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 25 2005, 04:13 AM)
*vbr-new will NOT be defaulted in 3.97
Thank you for this clear statement. Hopefully the rest of us can stop pushing for it, and put this one to bed for now.

Anybody who is sufficiently interested in the differences between -old and -new will surely discover how to implement them, and there is no need to default -new. Especially since (as Gabriel has pointed out) many potential implementations of -new are in virgin, relatively untested territory.

Regards,
Madrigal
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Jojo
post Sep 25 2005, 21:58
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QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 25 2005, 01:13 AM)
*vbr-new seems to be better overall than vbr-old on the 0-5 range, but at lower quality settings, we are into the unknown world.

*vbr-new will NOT be defaulted in 3.97
*

so why not use it just for --preset standard etc. then?


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teleguise
post Sep 26 2005, 00:50
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That's why I had asked for a little insight on what was going to which 'dev0' pasted
some info from 'Robert' on.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=37276&hl=
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zipr
post Sep 27 2005, 00:19
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Am I the only one who is having problems with the recommended settings for EAC w/regard to the genre tag?

I'm using this

-V 2 --vbr-new --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" %s %d

Set up as suggested, and LAME never includes the genre tag. Any ideas? I'm using the 3.97 beta.
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kockroach
post Sep 27 2005, 02:12
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Genre is obtained using the following

--tg "%m"

You also need to make sure that the genre is one that is in the drop down list in EAC. Otherwise it will not work.

Edit: Here's my string:

--alt-preset standard --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" --tg "%m" %s %d

I'm still using 3.90.3, so I haven't switched to the "V" switch yet.

This post has been edited by kockroach: Sep 27 2005, 02:14
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dev0
post Sep 27 2005, 07:33
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Some thoughts:
  • The --alt-preset/--preset syntax is clearly deprecated. I put --aps is f***** dead in bold red letters on top of the thread for a reason (excuse the language, it was meant as a reference to a song title).
  • The new thread should explain why --aps is dead and why the new -V settings are prefered.
  • It should also contain a small section assisting users selecting the right -V setting for their use. Still -V 2 should be recommended as "transparent on the majority of samples to the majority of listeners".
  • I would really like to recommend --vbr-new, but adding it to the recommended settings now only to remove it a little later when it gets defaulted is only going to cause confusion and misunderstanding. A small paragraph explaining the recent development would probably be a better idea.
  • The collection of software/links should be cleaned up/sorted out. Much of it isn't maintained anymore.
Edit: Removed immature comments.

While I appretiate your effort, user, it doesn't grant you the right to do as you wish.
Modifying the current recommended settings thread (which has been restored by now) without asking the moderation or considering the process of this thread is neither acceptable nor productive.
This thread was ment as a collaborative effort to define the shape of the new recommended settings (or whatever its new name is going to be) thread, while the old one stays in place as long as it has to (originally I planned switching to the new one once 3.97-final is released). Replacing the old one with a piece of smattering (you obviously didn't follow LAME development very closely) while changes are still being discussed here is just another one of your egotistic actions, which don't serve the community at all.


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guruboolez
post Sep 27 2005, 09:54
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QUOTE (dev0 @ Sep 27 2005, 07:33 AM)
While I appretiate your effort, user, it doesn't grant you the right to do as you wish.
Modifying the current recommended settings thread (which has been restored by now) without asking the moderation or considering the process of this thread is neither acceptable nor productive.
*


Explain me how keeping the same four year old recommandation could be considered as "productive" ?
QUOTE
you obviously didn't follow LAME development very closely

Did you? Where are your tests results? You announced some of them in january, but I still can't find any of them.

QUOTE
while changes are still being discussed here is just another one of your egotistic actions, which don't serve the community at all.

The egoistic action comes from HA.org moderation and administration. Not from user. People are not using 3.90.3 anymore. Not even on HA.org, which is -or rather was- the sanctuary of 3.90.3. It has been proved to be outdated, slow, and producing lower quality. There's no reason to keep 3.90.3 (aka 3.90.2 --alt-preset standard -Z) which was never fully tested. People like you are not contributing anymore to making LAME better. Not even ONE single ABX test have been posted by moderation team. LAME developers has checked the code in order to release a beta safe to use. Most people are using this version. Please: forgot this old wreck. It doesn't serve the community for a long time. wink.gif
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user
post Sep 27 2005, 10:31
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Thanks guruboolez,

I just give fact:

I wa sonly able to edit my sticky post with the new content,
because Citay allowed me, because as normal member, i wasn't able to edit the closed topic,
Citay made it unclosed, so that I could work again.

Is Citay a moderator, HA administration, or not ?
Was my work helpful, the new content better than the old , or not ?
Have I built in the ideas, suggestions, which were written inside this work-topic, even by the Lame-developer Gabriel, or not ?


edit-addon:

* The collection of software/links should be cleaned up/sorted out. Much of it isn't maintained anymore.
This is the only critics, which is in my horizon, which can be targeted to me.
of course, others have requested an update of links section also,
and guess, what ?!
I did that! it was long in my ToDo list. Did that also for the sticky MPC topic.
Can dev0 restore the sticky post ?
And by the way, people, who want better uptodate link list, could simply help me, and post here or elsewhere, or PM or email, an own, updated link-list.
has anybody done that ?
all the time before ?
yes, some people, you find them in this topic, helped with some links.
Just with moaning, "link list should be better", there is not much progress, you need somebody with time and the will to do it. Simply. period.


This post has been edited by user: Sep 27 2005, 11:12


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Synthetic Soul
post Sep 27 2005, 11:02
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QUOTE (kockroach @ Sep 27 2005, 02:12 AM)
Genre is obtained using the following

--tg "%m"

You also need to make sure that the genre is one that is in the drop down list in EAC.  Otherwise it will not work.

One of the benefits of the newer LAMEs over 3.90.3 is the inclusion of the --ignore-tag-errors switch. When included, if an unrecognised genre is passed to LAME the genre "Other" is used, instead of execution stopping.

Personally I think this is really useful. If --tg is to be included in a recommended command line I think mention needs to be made of the genre tagging in LAME, and that passing incorrect genres may end in termination unless --ignore-tag-errors is included.

I guess it's not suitable for everyone, as it could be construed as as inaccurate tagging - but I think it's useful to allow encoding, with the option to sort the genre tag later using an alternative tagger. LAME will warn you that the genre was unrecognised and that "Other" has been used in its place.

Edit: Suggested text:

You can specify a genre for the file by using the --tg switch, e.g.: --tg "Rock". LAME recognises 148 genres, which may be specified using the genre name or associated number.

To view an alphabetical list of the genres that LAME recognises use:

LAME.EXE --genre-list

If you pass LAME a genre name or number that is does not recognise execution will halt before any encoding takes place. If you would like to set a genre that LAME does not recognise, or you simply want to ensure that an incorrect genre will not halt your encoding process, you may use the --ignore-tag-errors switch. With this switch in your command line LAME will report that the genre is invalid, and that it will use the genre "Other" in its place, but encoding will still take place. You may then use an alternative ID3 tagging application to amend the genre to something more relevant.


This post has been edited by Synthetic Soul: Sep 27 2005, 11:33


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dev0
post Sep 27 2005, 11:10
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I wasn't aware your action was coordinated with CiTay, so there's a clear need for an excuse from my side.

I assumed you changed the recommended settings thread without asking a moderator, but even if that was the case my reaction would still be immature and impolite. There wasn't a lack of coordination between the moderation and user, but between the moderation and myself. I'm really sorry for attacking you on the base of pure speculation and anger.
There might be consequences regarding my involvment in HA.org, which has been sparse to nonexisting recently anyways, but I need to chill and get my head clear before making any decisions.


I still believe that the old recommended settings thread should be kept as long as it has to, meaning it should be kept as long as there's no semi-complete version of the new one available. I didn't consider user's (or anyone else's) ideas as finished when they were presented in this thread.

Gurboolez, I completely understand your point and, even if you won't believe me, I stronly agree with you when saying that there's no point in beating the dead horse 3.90.3 anymore. However I think the switch should be well prepared and carefully conducted, which is exactly why I started this thread:
To not let a single person define what the next four years are going to look like, but let discourse develop it.


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user
post Sep 27 2005, 11:23
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Hej, dev0,
I accept your apologies, a misunderstanding, chill out, take some good music.

So, I hope, you can restore the post, with last content.
because, the sticky post was always work-in -progress, and you don't need to worry, that it looks then 4 years again unchanged, if the topic is not closed again.
Inside this topic was the last version of the 3.90.3 list, you "restored" by your accident, and for various reasons, directly at the top of the new 3.97 list, this old content was linked !!!
it reveals more and more, that you haven't read the new topic, you would have got the old 3.90.3 content so easy from the new 3.97 content, both were available.
If i read your thoughts, you have wide overlaps with me regarding content, starting with the common idea, that 3.97 and -V system should start over & that there should be a link to the old 3.90.3 topic, all was there, not so semi-complete wink.gif.
The new topic was already well thought through, consider all the ideas written inside here.
For this reason, I edited & worked a lot, and so, I don't have the latest copy of the content, the start of the new topic is inside this topic also, and then it was developed step by step.
I can only hope, that you have it, as I don#t know, if I take the time again, to work on it.



Well, there is the wiki eg. where the content of the topic should be presented also, feel free, to use any layout you want, i cannot maintain everything, I concentrated on the forum.
And as it is matter of fact, I am always open for better presentations of layout, I was bad at school at making arts myself, but I am an analyst in science, with a bridge to the broad public, interestingly, my profession is analogue to my role of my hobby music and helping other people to use best thingies.
And so, I have mostly a very good understanding, what looks better, be it painting arts, music, or layouts of presenting knowhow to people.

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dev0
post Sep 27 2005, 12:02
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This is basically a collection/remix of the ideas I liked best so far. Links and EAC tutorial are intentionally missing. I really like the clear and concise explanations benc wrote.

Updated 2005-03-12

These settings require Lame 3.95 or later. Lame 3.97 found on this website is the recommended version. (Check here [fixme] to download).

Note: At a given bitrate range, the quality scale usually works to where VBR is higher quality than ABR which is higher quality than CBR (CBR < ABR < VBR in terms of quality). The exception to this is when you choose the highest possible CBR bitrate, which is 320 kbps.

Discussion has been moved here.


The Quick Start:
If you are just getting started with encoding MP3s and are overwhelmed by the amount of settings, chances are -V 2 --vbr-new is the right setting for you. This setting is considered transparent (not discernable from the original) on the majority of samples to the majority of listeners. Of course there are situations where other settings might be more appropiate (portable use or streaming), read about the alternatives below.


VBR (Variable Bitrate)

The VBR settings provide different quality levels, adapted to different configurations/needs. There is no "correct" quality level to use, and the following is only a suggestion to help you get started:

For portables devices with limited storage capacity try V5, V6 or V7.
For normal high quality usages try V3 or V4.
For transparency try V2 or better.

--V n (where n is a number between 0-9)

Example: -V 2

0 is the highest quality and 9 is the lowest. Below is a table showing the approximate bitrate range you can expect with each quality setting:

CODE
Switch  Bitrate range kbps

-V 0    230260
-V 1    200250
-V 2    170210
-V 3    155195
-V 4    145185
-V 5    110150
-V 6    95135
-V 7    80120
-V 8    65105
-V 9    4585


-V 2 --vbr-new will provide transparent quality for most people. It is a good compromise between file size and sound quality, and is recommended as a starting point for new users.

Remarks:

About the new VBR mode (also referenced as --vbr-new)
The --vbr-new switch enables the new VBR mode. Lame will encode much faster compared to old/default vbr mode. Current knowledge qualitywise comparing default vbr with --vbr-new is, that --vbr-new might even be better qualitywise than the default vbr mode, but there are also reports about artifact, that shows up in --vbr-new compared to default. Though the general impression is, that --vbr-new should be recommended over vbr-default.
The presets from -V0 to -V3 with or without --vbr-new switch and of course -b 320 are considered to be transparent for a majority of people. (That means, most people cannot distinguish the mp3 from the original in a double blindtest)

A little bit of history: The presets (--alt-preset xxx) for the 3.90.X branch of LAME were designed by many of the original members of this site and were exhaustively tested to make sure that they utilized the best possible settings for quality. Subsequent versions of LAME broke compatibility with these presets to allow for many other improvements (faster, bug issues, etc), thus making a temporary regression in quality. A new, more flexible preset system was introduced (the -V switches). LAME 3.96.1 seemed as though it might be about the same quality as 3.90.3 in some of the tests done after it was released. During the development of 3.97 members of this site (especially Guruboolez) conducted many tests to ensure that 3.97 outclasses 3.90.3 and 3.96.1 in quality.
Though there will be nothing wrong if you select either --alt-preset xy, preset xy or corresponding switch xy, you will always get the same (e.g: --alt-preset cbr 320 = --alt-preset insane = --preset insane = -b 320 = --preset 320 = --preset cbr 320).


ABR (Average Bitrate)

ABR mode is a type of VBR mode where you can specify the target bitrate. Files created with the normal VBR mode will be of a higher quality than those created with the ABR mode at the same bitrate. Use ABR mode when bitrate predictability is more important than quality.

--abr n (where n is any number between 8-320)

Example: --abr 173


CBR (Constant Bitrate)

CBR mode uses the same bitrate throughout the file and is the mode that most other MP3 encoders use. It will provide lower quality than ABR mode for a given bitrate, but it can be useful for streaming and when VBR/ABR may cause compatibility problems.

-b n (where n is 8 , 16 , 24 , 32 , 40 , 48 , 64 , 80 , 96 , 112 , 128 , 160 , 192 , 256 or 320)

Example: -b 128

Best possible quality

If you want LAME to encode using the best quality possible use the following switch:

-b 320

This will produce a 320kbps CBR file, and it is the only time when CBR mode is recommended instead of VBR mode for quality.
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Synthetic Soul
post Sep 27 2005, 12:16
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QUOTE (dev0 @ Sep 27 2005, 12:02 PM)
--V n (where n is a number between 0-9)

Example: -V 2 --vbr-new

Eh? Where'd the -vbr-new suddenly appear from?

This passage, the first introduction to the -V settings, is supposed to describe what the -V settings do, and suddenly we have a --vbr-new switch in there, with no introduction.

Do I have to use --vbr-new whenever I specify -V?

I'll accept it in the "Quickstart" if that is what HA are recommending, and I guess I'll accept it below the table - but I don't think it should be in the passage above, when the passage is describing the -V switch.


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dev0
post Sep 27 2005, 12:19
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Sep 27 2005, 12:16 PM)
QUOTE (dev0 @ Sep 27 2005, 12:02 PM)
--V n (where n is a number between 0-9)

Example: -V 2 --vbr-new

Eh? Where'd the -vbr-new suddenly appear from?

This passage, the first introduction to the -V settings, is supposed to describe what the -V settings do, and suddenly we have a --vbr-new switch in there, with no introduction.
*



I completely agree. Fixed.
Actually I just forget deleting it in the example, since I did delete it in the commandline.


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