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[Discussion] List of recommended LAME settings, V2 (for LAME 3.97)
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post Sep 16 2005, 17:34
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Thanx citay for removing the f word. Errm, it would have made the thread look somewhat juvenile.
My suggestion is to have as few links on the main post as possible. It should mainly deal with the recommended settings. There should be a separate wiki page purely for useful links, it is cluttering up the page.
The focus would be on lame and the recommended settings, prominent mention to the testers at HA eg. guruboolez smile.gif, developers eg. Gabriel smile.gif.
I really don't think there's any point in putting up Case's tutorial word for word, while a link would suffice.
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JunkieXL
post Sep 16 2005, 18:18
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I dunno I found Case's tutorial pretty helpfull when I first started using EAC & LAME. And I've had to quote from that portion of the guide several times when people have had questions about tagging or additional command line options...Might as well leave it.
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kwanbis
post Sep 16 2005, 18:18
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i think we should start simple, and then continue adding more info for the ones needing it ... if the post is too long, people don't care ... maybe a "quick explanation as first post", and a "long explanation" as the following one.


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user
post Sep 16 2005, 19:44
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please have some patience, the link section will be cleaned up, too, so that everything you need is there, and hopefully working.


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onthejazz
post Sep 16 2005, 19:52
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QUOTE (kwanbis @ Sep 16 2005, 12:18 PM)
i think we should start simple, and then continue adding more info for the ones needing it ... if the post is too long, people don't care ... maybe a "quick explanation as first post", and a "long explanation" as the following one.
*

This is smart, I like this idea very much.
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jaybeee
post Sep 16 2005, 20:20
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Not sure if it's been mentioned or already linked to (didn't see it), but this EAC guide and info is very useful.


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ErikS
post Sep 16 2005, 21:42
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CODE
Switch            equals preset        target kbit/s  Bitrate range kbit/s

-V 0            = --preset extreme       240      245…285
-V 0 --vbr-new  = --preset fast extreme  240      245…285
-V 1                                     210      220…260
-V 1 --vbr-new                           210      220…260


Does this mean that the encoder misses the target bitrate when using V0 and V1?
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user
post Sep 16 2005, 21:52
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QUOTE (ErikS @ Sep 16 2005, 09:42 PM)
CODE
Switch            equals preset        target kbit/s  Bitrate range kbit/s

-V 0            = --preset extreme       240      245…285
-V 0 --vbr-new  = --preset fast extreme  240      245…285
-V 1                                     210      220…260
-V 1 --vbr-new                           210      220…260


Does this mean that the encoder misses the target bitrate when using V0 and V1?
*



lol, good question !
Now i don't need to ask it myself wink.gif
I merged the infos from the German audio-hq page with the infos given here.
Indeed, something needs correction there.

The update is mostly done, I went through all links, and pointed out the missing ones wink.gif , where you could help me.


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Gabriel
post Sep 16 2005, 22:53
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QUOTE
Only for 128k ABR:
There was developed an alternative to the --abr 128 preset:
ff123's and Hans' suggestion (http://www.ff123.net/cbr128.html):
--abr 128 -h --nspsytune --athtype 2 --lowpass 16 --ns-bass -8 --scale 0.93

Please, this should go.
Those settings were related to 3.90 and results with 3.97 could be quite suboptimals.
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kurtnoise
post Sep 17 2005, 00:05
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May I suggest to add a BeLight link in association with BeSweet ? My tool uses the LameUI recommended by Gabriel. Thanks. smile.gif


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AtaqueEG
post Sep 17 2005, 02:58
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This is major! This is so exciting!

I sincerely thought the "Recommended" thread would never change.


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skelly831
post Sep 17 2005, 03:37
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ Sep 16 2005, 06:58 PM)
This is major! This is so exciting!

I sincerely thought the "Recommended" thread would never change.
*

This is major, we are witnessing a paradigm shift, a revolution, it's like life on other planets being found, a religion being proven true... I went overboard tongue.gif .


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teleguise
post Sep 17 2005, 08:31
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Are there plans to make use of EAC's "Lame MP3 Encoder" parameter passing scheme
work like it did before, -basically- the same as User Defined when using presets?

Presently, using Lame 3.97b1 only works properly when trying to use presests such as V 2 and V 2 --vbr-new using EAC's User Defined parameter passing scheme.

Does that depend on changes to EAC as well as LAME?

This post has been edited by teleguise: Sep 17 2005, 08:33
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Gabriel
post Sep 17 2005, 08:37
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The parameters passing scheme did not changed on the Lame side.
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teleguise
post Sep 17 2005, 08:55
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Well I guess I should have noted that I never did use either w/Lame 3.90.

So then I take it since nothing changed on Lame's side that it will be up to EAC to change and
interpret v 2 --vbr-new etc.. like it used to do with --alt-preset standard etc..

This post has been edited by teleguise: Sep 17 2005, 08:56
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moozooh
post Sep 17 2005, 16:12
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Here, I've tried to improve user's guide by correcting and lightening it a bit (I still think that the lighter is the better in this case). Markup is changed a bit, too.
Opinions and corrections are appreciated, of course.
—————————————————————————————

These settings require Lame 3.97 or later. Lame 3.97beta1 (often referenced as 3.97b1) found on this website is the recommended version. (Check here or Rarewares to download).
Avoid using alpha (a) versions, those are mainly for testing purposes.

Note: At a given bitrate range, the quality scale is following: VBR is higher quality than ABR which is higher quality than CBR (VBR > ABR > CBR in terms of quality). The exception to this is when you choose the highest possible CBR bitrate, which is 320 kbps (--preset insane).

VBR: variable bitrate mode, the goal is to keep a constant quality and saving bits where possible without lowering the quality.
ABR: average bitrate mode varies bits around a specified target bitrate
CBR: constant bitrate mode is not efficient regarding distributing bitrate to more complex music parts and saving bits where it would be possible without lowering the quality of those music parts.

Note: all modes and settings mentioned in this topic belong to the specifications of the MP3 standard, and the resulting MP3s should be played by every standard-conform MP3-Decoder. If this shouldn't be the case, blame the manufacturer or developer of your MP3-Decoder/device. Neither the hydrogenaudio.org community, HA staff, nor the authors of this post take any responsibility for anything.


Discussion has been moved here.




-------------------------------------------------
Recommended encoder settings:
-------------------------------------------------


Presets
(listed beginning with highest possible quality stepping down to lower qualities)

--preset insane (or -b 320)
maximum quality possible, very high bitrate (always 320 kbps).

--preset extreme (or -V0)
exceptionally high quality, somewhat high bitrate (typically 220—270 kbps).

--preset fast extreme (or -V0 --vbr-new)
allows faster encoding and a bit higher quality than normal --preset extreme (typically 220—270 kbps).

--preset standard (or -V2)
generally transparent preset, almost indistinguishable from --preset extreme, good size/quality tradeoff (typically 180—240 kbps).

--preset fast standard (or -V2 --vbr-new)
allows faster encoding and a bit higher quality than normal --preset standard (typically 180—240 kbps).

--preset medium (or -V4)
mostly transparent preset, extremely suitable for noisy environments and portable use, very good size/quality tradeoff (typically 110—170 kbps).

--preset fast medium (or -V4 --vbr-new)
allows faster encoding and a bit higher quality than normal --preset standard (typically 110—170 kbps).

You can also experiment with other quality settings (such as -V1 or -V3), which are thoroughly described here: [here goes the link to the appropriate wiki part]


If the target is eg. streaming, where you need MP3 in ABR or even CBR mode, there are still the ABR and CBR modes.
You can specify your desired target bitrate:

ABR (Average Bitrate mode):

--preset xxx or --abr xxx (e.g.: --preset 136, --abr 80)

xxx (desired averaged bitrate in kbit/s) can be any value between 8—320 (e.g. 9, 17, 80, 128, 133, 200 etc.).

Note: You could also try this popular setting as an alternative to 128 kbps ABR:
-V5 --vbr-new --athaa-sensitivity 1

CBR (Constant Bitrate mode):

--preset cbr xxx or --b xxx (e.g.: --preset cbr 96, -b 160)

Note: Allowed values for CBR (in kbps): 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, 128, 160, 192, 224, 256, 320.

Remarks:

About the new VBR mode (also referenced as --vbr-new)
The --vbr-new switch enables the new VBR mode. Lame will encode much faster compared to old/default vbr mode. Current knowledge qualitywise comparing default vbr with --vbr-new is, that --vbr-new might even be better qualitywise than the default vbr mode, but there are also reports about artifact, that shows up in --vbr-new compared to default. Though the general impression is, that --vbr-new should be recommended over vbr-default.
The presets from -V0 to -V3 with or without --vbr-new switch and of course -b 320 are considered to be transparent for a majority of people. (That means, most people cannot distinguish the mp3 from the original in a double blindtest)

For example, high quality for portable MP3 players may be achieved using -V4 --vbr-new / --preset fast medium (around 150 kbps).

About the old preset system (also referenced as --alt-presets)
The revolutionary --alt-preset system introduced in lame 3.90, is replaced nowadays by the new preset system, explained here: [link to the wiki part blah-blah…]
Note: now you must type in --preset instead of alt-preset).

Though there will be nothing wrong if you select either --alt-preset xy, preset xy or corresponding switch xy, you will always get the same [umm, not sure on the alt-preset part] (e.g: --alt-preset cbr 320 = --alt-preset insane = --preset insane = -b 320 = --preset 320 = --preset cbr 320).

[tutorials and useful links — I think they should be moved to wiki]

[credits — the same?]


This post has been edited by Mo0zOoH: Sep 17 2005, 16:15


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user
post Sep 17 2005, 16:34
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I will implement as much as I can from your suggestions, though the links part or the small Case EAC&mp3-lame setup is important.
The sticky topic is useless, if you tackle only the meaning of the settings.
The aim is still, to give the (quick-)start for a newbie towards mp3-compression and ripping his CDs to mp3 of course, all at 1 URL, 1 place in internet.
The name of the topic was years ago chosen as "recommended settings", because at r3mix forum times, we haven't had presets. Then the r3mix & dm-presets came, cumulating to alt-presets and what we have now. The idea to collect widely accepted best settings for a given bitrate, and later to make a end-user friendly preset system inside of lame, came from those days.
So, at those very early days, even if you understood how to use EAC, you were very unsure about best quality settings, as in the r3mix forum everybody posted his own findings and ideas, suggestions, ABX tests sometimes.
For this reason, the VBR preset system by simply typing -V x (--vbr-new) is a great great progress again.
And so it is important, to list the -V x settings together with averaged target bitrates & ranges (and together with equalling preset xy), which explains the character of VBR mode very good without much text.

As producing a high quality mp3 is not only about using the good preset, it is also about ripping with eac following one of the recognized tutorials, and some other helpful audio links, so that newbies find a good start to get even more knowledge and maybe find interest to participate at HA community by abx tests etc.

This post has been edited by user: Sep 17 2005, 16:35


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beto
post Sep 17 2005, 18:25
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Are we going to focus on the presets or in the V switch to demonstrate quality? IMO this is confusing to newbies. IMO a name (preset whatever) brings more meaning than a number (V whatever)... tongue.gif
For sure I believe this should be standardized someway for the sake of simplicity...

This post has been edited by beto: Sep 17 2005, 18:26


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moozooh
post Sep 17 2005, 19:29
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I understand your intentions user, but something is bugging me as well.
Actually, all you must read to start using LAME well is quite a little piece of text. But the amount of text in the recommended settings is just enormous! I guess, most of the casual users won't even bother themselves to scan through it for the required piece of information.
That's why I suggested leave, well, the actual settings (especially presets) and move all the optional information to a more appropriate place (and HA Knowledgebase is more than appropriate place for that purpose).
The truth is, the recommended settings themselves is about 1/6 of the entire post, which is quite amusing to me.

This post has been edited by Mo0zOoH: Sep 17 2005, 19:32


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Shade[ST]
post Sep 17 2005, 19:55
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Mo0zOoH : preset fast medium is higher quality than preset standard?
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user
post Sep 17 2005, 20:01
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QUOTE (Shade[ST)
,Sep 17 2005, 07:55 PM]Mo0zOoH : preset fast medium is higher quality than preset standard?
*


no problem, a typo,
whilst inserting that passage of text, I corrected it, the true list of settings is without that mistake.

What is of higher priority would be an edit of the other 2 sticky posts,
* recommended lame compiles,
* and about lame versions and alphas, that could be updated with recommendation to use 3.97b1 and only for testing alphas or 3.90.3


beto:
Are we going to focus on the presets or in the V switch to demonstrate quality? IMO this is confusing to newbies. IMO a name (preset whatever) brings more meaning than a number (V whatever)...
For sure I believe this should be standardized someway for the sake of simplicity...

well, we focus meanwhile on the -V switches, which are the shortest and also most simple abbreviation for the presets !
Concentrating on -V x will be simpler as it is shorter and faster to write.
I have followed the discussions here, and noticed, that of course people write -V2 (--vbr-new) these days, instaed of the long --(alt)preset (fast) standard, though it means the same for the new lame versions.
Another reason is very simple, there are no special names for most of the presets, like -V3, -V6 and so forth.
Next reason: Analogue to the quality scales of MPC and Ogg, Lame-Mp3 has now the -V x system.
But for a smooth transition, you will notice, that I used the layout first used by Frank Bicking for the "German HA audio-hq.de", which offers both, the -V x setting, then if existing, the name of the "preset xy", then the target bitrates.
What's difficult to understand in that table ?




Regarding current List of "settings" (<-- I explained above, why the name of the topic is restricted, though the content should cover all important stuff about MP3),
I am quite satisfied with the structure, maybe somebody goes through the links section, and helps finding replacement links, where i asked for help.
Some links to certain proggies could maybe wiped out, as other links are there, which do already better.
But the history has shown, that in past people requested, that I add this and those links to their preferred programs.
So the list of links went bigger.
If you could suggest concrete links, which could be erased or replaced by better ones, tell me, please.

The structure of the post is fine though, it starts after some short introduction about quality vbr > abr > cbr directly with the settings highest quality 1st, then going down.
This principle is followed,
then the abr, then the cbr settings are explained.

Then there is a break with Remarks section following.
There is the mysterium of the --vbr-new switch explained, very important, of course.
Then I added Mo0zOoH's explanations about some higher quality settings to the remarks, as those explanations do not cover all today's quality settings of lame, it is only possible, to have that text as remark, as remarks it is good text explaining when most people apply this or that setting for certain aims. If the remarks seem to long, then these remarks could be shortened out, as the topic would work without also, but I think, too, it is better, people have something to read.
Because there is not too much to read.
If you see this topic as entrance for newbies to the world of mp3 in best quality and as entrance to HA, then it is good to mention some stuff in that post, not only a short list of settings.

Then as next chapter there is the case guide for EAC setup.
very necessary as quickstart to EAC.

Then the links section.

Because you cannot teach people EAC inside of this little post, but you can make them hungry by pointing them to EAC (see the Case EAC-mp3 setup guide inside the post), and then offer the links to the good EAC tutorials to the hungry people.
As HA is about quality, analyzing, audio on a scientific basis, approach (ABX, TOS 8), it is also good, to point people to replaygain/mp3gain (that is even important from a practical point of view), to Encspot, Mr. Quedstionman (could encspot link be erased, is it redundant these days ?)
and so forth.


All in all, the "list of settings" post was not made only by me, you see exactly in the credits, who contributed, too, you will find Dibrom himself, who wrote there, other people, who developed the layout.
All in all, these people were lucky with the list of settings, remarks, eac guide, & links, as this post was even a good bookmark list for more experienced people.
Of course, somebody needs to decide and weigh out, which is too few or too much information. Imo, the list is now better than ever, compare to 1 month ago, the list is better than ever, because lame is better than ever, so here again my personal thank you to the MP3 & Lame developers in past, present & future !

This post has been edited by user: Sep 17 2005, 20:46


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beto
post Sep 17 2005, 21:27
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QUOTE
well, we focus meanwhile on the -V switches, which are the shortest and also most simple abbreviation for the presets !
Concentrating on -V x will be simpler as it is shorter and faster to write.
I have followed the discussions here, and noticed, that of course people write -V2 (--vbr-new) these days, instaed of the long --(alt)preset (fast) standard, though it means the same for the new lame versions.
Another reason is very simple, there are no special names for most of the presets, like -V3, -V6 and so forth.
Next reason: Analogue to the quality scales of MPC and Ogg, Lame-Mp3 has now the -V x system.
But for a smooth transition, you will notice, that I used the layout first used by Frank Bicking for the "German HA audio-hq.de", which offers both, the -V x setting, then if existing, the name of the "preset xy", then the target bitrates.
What's difficult to understand in that table ?


The difficulty is that there are 2 "systems" (preset and V switch) to deal with the same thing: quality. My suggestion is to use either one.
Vorbis and MPC, for instance, have just one "system".
Avoid complexity is a good thing IMO.


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onthejazz
post Sep 17 2005, 22:43
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QUOTE (kwanbis @ Sep 16 2005, 12:18 PM)
i think we should start simple, and then continue adding more info for the ones needing it ... if the post is too long, people don't care ... maybe a "quick explanation as first post", and a "long explanation" as the following one.
*


This is still the best idea anyone has had. You can't look at it as it makes sense to an experienced user. You have to look at it as what is too much information to discourage a newbie from understanding & taking the time to learn it. First post, simple explanation. Second post goes into more detailed information. One big post is too much for someone just learning this to want to bother with. And the main focus should be to educate people who don't know or understand...yet. JMHO.
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benc
post Sep 18 2005, 01:31
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Hope this doesn't seem to cheeky for a lurker to post this, but here is my suggestion for how a recommend settings thread could be done. I'm not saying that this should be the exact wording (or that the wording is even correct!) and some colour could probably improve readability.

Stuff about --vbr-new vs. --vbr-old, and and a table showing what the --preset switches are equivalent to, could go in a post below (maybe as a mini FAQ) to keep the main info as tidy as possible.

***************************

<very short introduction goes here>

VBR (Variable Bitrate)

VBR mode provides constant quality at the expense of bitrate prediction. This is the recommend way to use LAME when quality is most important factor.

--V n --vbr-new (where n is a number between 0-9)

Example: -V 2 --vbr-new

0 is the highest quality and 9 is the lowest. Below is a table showing the approximate bitrate range you can expect with each quality setting:

CODE
Switch            Target bitrate range (kbps)

-V 0 --vbr-new    245…285
-V 1 --vbr-new    220…260
-V 2 --vbr-new    170…210
-V 3 --vbr-new    155…195
-V 4 --vbr-new    145…185
-V 5 --vbr-new    110…150
-V 6 --vbr-new    95…135
-V 7 --vbr-new    80…120
-V 8 --vbr-new    65…105
-V 9 --vbr-new    45…85


-V 2 --vbr-new will provide transparent quality for most people. It is a good compromise between file size and sound quality, and is recommended as a starting point for new users.


ABR (Average Bitrate)

ABR mode is a type of VBR mode where you can specify the target bitrate. Files created with the normal VBR mode will be of a higher quality than those created with the ABR mode at the same bitrate. Use ABR mode when bitrate is more important than quality.

--abr n (where n is any number between 8-320)

Example: --abr 173


CBR (Constant Bitrate)

CBR mode uses the same bitrate throughout the file and is the mode that most other MP3 encoders use. It will provide lower quality than ABR mode for a given bitrate, but it can be useful for streaming and when VBR/ABR may cause compatibility problems.

-b n (where n is 8 , 16 , 24 , 32 , 40 , 48 , 64 , 80 , 96 , 112 , 128 , 160 , 192 , 256 or 320)

Example: -b 128


Best possible quality

If you want LAME to encode using the best quality possible use the following switch:

-b 320

This will produce a 320kbps CBR file, and it is the only time when CBR mode is recommended instead of VBR mode for quality.
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Gabriel
post Sep 18 2005, 09:53
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Note: average bitrate range of VBR levels are overlapping, so the V1 range should overlap with the V2 range.
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