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DVD Audio or SACD ?, Support audio
guada 2
post Feb 23 2005, 00:16
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Hello everyone,

A lot of audiophiles approves the SACD formats, but some irreducible retorts that the DVD Audio is superior.
And you, of what side are you?
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indybrett
post Feb 23 2005, 02:39
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Garf's sig say's it all...

The answer to the SACD vs. DVD-Audio question is: CD -- DigitalMan


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cabbagerat
post Feb 23 2005, 06:29
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Please search and read the FAQ - this has been discussed many, many times here and I don't think another discussion would achieve anything.


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guada 2
post Feb 24 2005, 00:04
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Sorry, I didn't know it.
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indybrett
post Feb 24 2005, 01:34
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If it helps, I believe there are now hardware players that support both formats.


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guada 2
post Feb 24 2005, 07:38
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Thank you indybrett, but I know this domain very well.
Ayre, Linn, Méridian already develops for a long time this principle.

I wanted to know that rightly that uses each among us.
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guruboolez
post Feb 24 2005, 08:31
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In my opinion, the only way to answer this is to perform blind comparisons. And to be sure that both tracks are coming from the same mastering. It seems that nobody did it.
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guada 2
post Feb 24 2005, 19:33
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I approve your reasoning on the principle of this comparison.

But what to say formats audios that constitutes the world of music.
Must one to trust the decoders audios, that identifies and read the formats ( on PC) or to electronics (sources, readers DVD or SACD of lounge) that treat it also.
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Garf
post Feb 24 2005, 21:35
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My sig says another thing about that discussion, actually, from one of the foremost experts here smile.gif

Personally I strongly favor DVD-A over SACD/DSD on technical grounds. This has been elaborately discussed here before.

Read for example http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

Favorite quote:

QUOTE
Finally, consider 8-bit, four-times-oversampled PCM with
noise shaping. This is also a data rate one-half that of DSD and
double that of CD, with a sampling rate of 4 × 44,100 =
176,400 Hz. It can achieve a noise floor 120 dB below full
scale up to 20 kHz, using 96 dB of noise shaping, and a total
noise power of –19 dBFS. Its frequency response would be
flat to 80 kHz. This example is perhaps the most instructive of
the lot. For a data rate one-half that of DSD, it achieves a
comparable signal bandwidth, with a similar noise power
density up to 20 kHz, but much lower power above this
frequency, and 28 dB lower total noise power. It is fully
TPDF-dithered, and so is completely artefact free. At one-half
the data rate it outperforms DSD on every count! DSD is a
profligate wastrel of capacity.


This post has been edited by Garf: Feb 24 2005, 21:45
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guada 2
post Feb 24 2005, 23:41
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Good evening Garf,

Would the quality of a product be bound only to a technical proof?

I don't think it.
It is only my opinion: my ears first then the view.

What I know, an amplifier transistor will never be an lamp amplifier and even less a hybrid amplifier.
The comparison will always be uncertain and function of the individual's entity.
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Corezode
post Feb 24 2005, 23:46
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I Would Recommend DVD-A
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Garf
post Feb 25 2005, 01:59
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QUOTE (guada 2 @ Feb 25 2005, 12:41 AM)
Would the quality of a product be bound only to a technical proof? 


What part of

QUOTE
At one-half the data rate it outperforms DSD on every count!


didn't you understand?

The goal of the carrier is to reproduce the original signal as faithfully as possible. DSD is very suboptimal in that regard. That's a mathematical fact.

Distortion (like the one from your beloved tube amps) can (and should!) always be added later on, since it's entirely subjective what sounds "better" there.
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guada 2
post Feb 25 2005, 10:01
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I admire the clarity of your speech because you give proof on the one hand of truth.
Long life to the développemnt of your codec audio.

To soon smile.gif
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Gecko
post Feb 25 2005, 14:28
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Feb 24 2005, 09:31 AM)
In my opinion, the only way to answer this is to perform blind comparisons. And to be sure that both tracks are coming from the same mastering. It seems that nobody did it.
*
emphasis is mine

I don't know if this is even possible since the processing of DSD and PCM data is so different.

Right now SACD are mostly created from 96/24 masters (at best) and surely the converted DSD signal can not be better.
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ChristianHJW
post Feb 26 2005, 08:51
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DVD-A !!

SONY has to be punished for their constant attempts to establish their own 'standards', with us, the users, being the ones paying the bills veryangry.gif ...


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ultranalog
post Feb 26 2005, 14:43
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What's all this talk about optical carriers about? Don't you know that is sooo 20th century... whistling.gif
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Acid Orange Juic...
post Feb 26 2005, 18:51
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QUOTE (guada 2 @ Feb 24 2005, 04:41 PM)
What I know, an amplifier transistor will never be an  lamp amplifier and even less a hybrid amplifier. 
*


.........

You would have to know, that many electrical and electronic engineers are not in agreement with this.

In many cases this is a market opinion, and it does not reflect the exact reality...
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Acid Orange Juic...
post Feb 26 2005, 19:15
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QUOTE (guada 2 @ Feb 22 2005, 05:16 PM)
A lot of audiophiles approves the SACD formats, but some irreducible retorts that the DVD Audio is superior. 
*


I doubt much that, due to the limitations of the human ear, you notice a difference between SACD, Dvd-a, and Audio CD (for normal stereo listening).

of course, if you notice differences this probably is as consequence of differents masterings...
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guada 2
post Feb 26 2005, 23:18
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Hello Acid Orange Juice,

"You would have to know, that many electrical and electronic engineers are not in agreement with this.
In many cases this is a market opinion, and it does not reflect the exact reality... "


Indeed, if you take the example of the very upscale: Naim Nac552/Nap500, Meridian, Dcs elgar, Ayre or Linn, it is true the analysis of the specter, the passing strip and the dynamics is not really the same.
But the charm of the tube (artisanal manufacture) will remain and will give a heat always little present among the big constructors of electronic high-quality.



" of course, if you notice differences this probably is as consequence of differents masterings... "

The mastering is often questioned in this case of face.
Must i think that an excelllent mastering of the SACD can surpassed a DVD Audio of middle quality.

Finally, this analysis makes myself think about the eternal return (psychoanalysis): the mobile picture of one immobile eternity.
It is strange, but that reflects there strongly: Mastering/Quality, Quality/Mastering.
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KikeG
post Feb 27 2005, 00:37
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Heh. An excellent mastering on CD has probably nothing to envy to any SACD or DVD-A.

And, again, technically, DVD-A is far superior to SACD. The point is if that makes DVD-A sound any better than SACD. But then, even when both are technically better than redbook CD, it's not clear that this can make them sound any better than good old CD. It's all about mastering.

This post has been edited by KikeG: Feb 27 2005, 00:40
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Busemann
post Feb 27 2005, 01:50
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The key advantage to SACD is that it can easily be distributed as a hybrid CD. I haven't seen any listening-test being conducted that clearly favored one over the other, so unless the music is targeted at bats, I think the world would be better off with SACD becoming the standard.

Just my 2¢.
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Busemann
post Feb 27 2005, 01:51
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QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 25 2005, 11:51 PM)
DVD-A !!

SONY has to be punished for their constant attempts to establish their own 'standards', with us, the users, being the ones paying the bills  veryangry.gif ...
*


What bills?
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Acid Orange Juic...
post Feb 27 2005, 06:23
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QUOTE
Indeed, if you take the example of the very upscale: Naim Nac552/Nap500, Meridian, Dcs elgar, Ayre or Linn, it is true the analysis of the specter, the passing strip and the dynamics is not really the same.
But the charm of the tube (artisanal manufacture) will remain and will give a heat always little present among the big constructors of electronic high-quality.


Hello guada2 smile.gif ;

My opinions are based in my own experience as electronic engineer and as scientist; not by publicity or by opinions of third parts, that, others repeat like parrots without having idea of the subject which they are treating.

Their arguments are not more than their own and subjective opinions, and they are not based on facts, evidence or science; like either in engineering.

I have 4 years designing amplifiers of high fidelity. If you think that you will obtain better quality with an expensive amplifier of tubes, when you can obtain the same sound with an amplifier of transistors well designed (by a much smaller cost), then, you are free to waste your money...

QUOTE
Must i think that an excelllent mastering of the SACD can surpassed a DVD Audio of middle quality


... again ...

Your opinions are not based on facts or scientific evidence; they are based only in magical suppositions..

you did not pay attention to this:
QUOTE
I doubt much that, due to the limitations of the human ear, you notice a difference between SACD, Dvd-a, and Audio CD (for normal stereo listening).


It's a fact, not a supposition..
It's well known that the audio CD is completely overkill for the human ear. The normal audio CD have more resolution that the human ear is able to perceive. SACD and DVD-A have more resolution that the normal audio CD.. but.. for what?. It's not necessary for your ears.. maybe if you are a dog probably you hear the difference...
Of course, this is for the case of normal stereo listening.. For multichannel is another story..
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unfortunateson
post Feb 27 2005, 10:17
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To see if there are indeed audible differences between DVD-A and CD, would a valid test be to make a recording @ 96khz/24 bit WAV (a dvd-a spec), resample to a 44.1khz 16 bit CD spec WAV, and ABX the two, or would the 96khz recording be invalid because it wasnt first compressed in the DVD-A MLP format? Would differences become apparent through dithering noise?
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guada 2
post Feb 27 2005, 13:49
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Hello Acid Orange Juice, smile.gif

"Their arguments are not more than their own subjective and expressed an opinion, and they are not based one facts, evidence however science; like either in engineering.
I haggard 4 years designing amplifiers of high fidelity. Yew you think that you will obtain better quality with year expensive to amplify of tubes, when you can obtain the same sound with year to amplify of transistors well designed (by has much smaller cost), then, you are free to waste your money... "


I don't put in doubt your experience, But to think that one DCS ELgar Plus/Verdi/Purcell doesn't make the weight, I am not sure. In short, it was only a parenthesis.

Indeed, I join you on a point: these are not the best electronic that pull the best resonant restitution. Because you know it all as much than me, that the quality of a source raises several criterias of tests.
After some years of comparatives and purchases of materials, I resolved to this stereo system:

Source: Linn Ikemi
Integrated amp: Icos Elsberg 270
New loudspeakers: Thiel CS2.4
Case of alimentaion sector: MPC
Cables HP: Synergistic Research
Cables of modulation: Esprit

It is not the dearest, but I am pleased of its capacity to answer best to the system that I searched for.

For what concerns video I reserve the right of all disclosure: scaler + spotlight + player DVD + préamp + amplifier multicannal + loudspeakers 5.1.
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