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Extract HDCD, How I Can extract HDCD by software?
SCIF
post Jan 27 2005, 08:34
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How I Can extract HDCD by software(EAC, WMP9...)?
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Walrusbonzo
post Aug 27 2007, 15:20
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I've started to run all my known HDCD encoded CDs through the HDCD decoder and I'm then compressing using WavPack 4.42 (-hhx6). I'll post more results once I get them.

WavPack compression results.

Buffalo Springfield, Last Time Around.


Original 16bit - 197mb - 806kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 248mb - 1013kbps

Joni Mitchell, Clouds.


Original 16bit - 202mb - 749kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 222mb - 827kbps

Joni Mitchell, Blue.


Original 16bit - 187mb - 724kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 210mb - 811kbps

Joni Mitchell, Ladies of the Canyon.

Original 16bit - 259mb - 806kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 282mb - 878kbps

Joni Mitchell, Song to a Seagull.


Original 16bit - 210mb - 771kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 229mb - 841kbps

Van Halen, 1984.


Original 16bit - 246mb - 1031kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 244mb - 1022kbps

Interesting result this, the 24bit HDCD decoded version compresses to a size even smaller than the original 16bit.

Van Halen, Van Halen I.


Original 16bit - 260mb - 1025kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 258mb - 1018kbps

Same again here for Van Halen.

Neil Young, American Stars 'n Bars.

Original 16bit - 240mb - 879kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 295mb - 1082kbps

Neil Young, On The Beach.


Original 16bit - 216mb - 763kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 265mb - 936kbps

King Crimson, Islands.


Original 16bit - 208mb - 640kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 214mb - 680kbps

King Crimson, In The Wake Of Poseidon.

Original 16bit - 222mb - 757kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 233mb - 796kbps

King Crimson, Larks' Tongues In Aspic.

Original 16bit - 241mb - 724kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 251mb - 754kbps

King Crimson, Starless and Bible Black.

Original 16bit - 246mb - 739kbps
HDCD Decoded 24bit - 255mb - 764kbps

This post has been edited by Walrusbonzo: Aug 27 2007, 21:09
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bryant
post Aug 31 2007, 05:36
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QUOTE (Walrusbonzo @ Aug 27 2007, 07:20) *
I've started to run all my known HDCD encoded CDs through the HDCD decoder and I'm then compressing using WavPack 4.42 (-hhx6). I'll post more results once I get them.

Thanks for posting your compression results, however I was very surprised that some albums would actually get smaller after the HDCD decoding. I can only imagine two reasons this could happen. One is if the original data was not compressed with the same settings (say, -hhx instead of -hhx6), and the other was if in some cases the HDCD program is actually throwing away a bit (but that wouldn't make any sense).

I also tried this with 3 of my HDCDs, and found that for tracks encoded using "peak extension" you can gain considerable compression improvement by using very small block sizes. I found that --blocksize=4410 worked nicely, and on some tracks --blocksize=2205 was even better. And I'm talking like 5-10% better compression!

Christopher, this is a very cool program! I actually was working on this many years ago (before WMP had this) and also found the data "key" that enables the HDCD functioning. However, I was never able to find any other information to control parameters (the signal was just either there or not, 10 times per second IIRC). Anyway, my next step was to start measuring the effect using an external HDCD decoder and a scope, but I never got that far. Anyway, congratulations! smile.gif

BTW, I'm sure you have thought of this, but a very interesting complementary project would be an HDCD encoder. Then any band could release their own HDCD CDs, although Microsoft might have something to say about that! smile.gif
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SebastianG
post Aug 31 2007, 08:27
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QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 31 2007, 06:36) *
I also tried this with 3 of my HDCDs, and found that for tracks encoded using "peak extension" you can gain considerable compression improvement by using very small block sizes. I found that --blocksize=4410 worked nicely, and on some tracks --blocksize=2205 was even better. And I'm talking like 5-10% better compression!

Here's a possible explanation: The peak compression is heavily non-linear. It creates harmonic distortions which could be harder to predict than the original or decoded data.

Cheers!
SG
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bryant
post Sep 1 2007, 05:49
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QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 31 2007, 00:27) *
QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 31 2007, 06:36) *

I also tried this with 3 of my HDCDs, and found that for tracks encoded using "peak extension" you can gain considerable compression improvement by using very small block sizes. I found that --blocksize=4410 worked nicely, and on some tracks --blocksize=2205 was even better. And I'm talking like 5-10% better compression!

Here's a possible explanation: The peak compression is heavily non-linear. It creates harmonic distortions which could be harder to predict than the original or decoded data.

Cheers!
SG

Hi Sebastian! smile.gif

Actually, I think it's a lot simpler than that. At least on the tracks I tried, the peak extension is triggered very infrequently, so most of the time you have only 16 bits and WavPack can encode that as 16 bits. But when the peak extension is triggered in a block, that entire block must be encoded in 20 bits (or whatever the worst sample is, bits-wise). When you're using the rather large default blocks (0.5 - 1.0 seconds) then a high percentage of the blocks have to go 20 bit, but when using smaller blocks (0.05 - 0.10 seconds) most can be just 16 bit.

David
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Posts in this topic
- SCIF   Extract HDCD   Jan 27 2005, 08:34
- - Garf   HDCD just uses the standard 16 bit CD Audio encodi...   Jan 27 2005, 10:28
|- - PoisonDan   QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 27 2005, 11:28 AM)For playb...   Jan 27 2005, 10:50
|- - SCIF   QUOTE (PoisonDan @ Jan 27 2005, 07:50 PM)But ...   Jan 28 2005, 03:31
- - Garf   Perhaps it could work when you mount the ripped wa...   Jan 27 2005, 11:44
- - precisionist   QUOTE (SCIF @ Jan 28 2005, 03:31 AM)QUOTE (Po...   Jan 28 2005, 11:17
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (precisionist @ Jan 28 2005, 02:17 AM)M...   Jan 28 2005, 17:02
- - adlai   I was always under the impression that HDCD was si...   Jan 28 2005, 18:00
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 28 2005, 09:00 AM)I was al...   Jan 28 2005, 18:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jan 28 2005, 13:59) Q...   Jun 27 2007, 20:44
|- - ProtectYaNeck36   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jan 28 2005, 11:59) Q...   Oct 20 2007, 17:41
- - user   QUOTE (SCIF @ Jan 27 2005, 08:34 AM)How I Can...   Feb 1 2005, 11:31
|- - Night Rain   QUOTE (user @ Feb 1 2005, 02:31) QUOTE (S...   Mar 21 2007, 12:38
- - ShowsOn   I just noticed this thread, and given that I fina...   Feb 1 2005, 13:10
|- - user   as written above, normally 24 bit playback of audi...   Feb 1 2005, 13:45
- - precisionist   QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Feb 1 2005, 01:10 PM)I resta...   Feb 2 2005, 13:26
|- - user   QUOTE (precisionist @ Feb 2 2005, 01:26 PM)My...   Feb 3 2005, 12:02
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (user @ Feb 3 2005, 01:02 PM)QUOTE (pre...   Feb 3 2005, 21:25
- - precisionist   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Feb 3 2005, 09:25 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 4 2005, 14:23
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (precisionist @ Feb 4 2005, 05:23 AM)Th...   Feb 4 2005, 16:34
- - Pio2001   No software, exept maybe the combination of Window...   Feb 4 2005, 23:29
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Feb 4 2005, 17:29) No so...   Feb 8 2007, 19:15
- - precisionist   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 4 2005, 04:34 PM)Does...   Feb 7 2005, 17:01
- - Eric Carroll   There has been a long running thread on the Slim D...   Feb 26 2007, 06:56
- - markanini   Wow, I wish I knew about this plugin before. Final...   Feb 27 2007, 01:40
|- - Eric Carroll   QUOTE (markanini @ Feb 26 2007, 19:40) Wo...   Feb 27 2007, 04:42
|- - markanini   QUOTE (Eric Carroll @ Feb 27 2007, 05:42)...   Feb 27 2007, 05:26
- - markanini   Since I got too excited about this, here are the w...   Feb 27 2007, 06:31
|- - Eric Carroll   Thanks for looking into this. QUOTE (markanini ...   Feb 27 2007, 06:57
- - markanini   For the sake of visual comparison I adjusted the w...   Feb 27 2007, 07:08
|- - Eric Carroll   Well your results sure look like what I expected t...   Feb 27 2007, 07:14
- - markanini   I used WMP 10.   Feb 27 2007, 07:17
- - SebastianG   I recall someone mentioning on the audioasylum for...   Feb 27 2007, 09:49
|- - user   I have an alternative idea to capture the 2 stream...   Mar 21 2007, 11:41
- - SebastianG   I reviewed the papers about HDCD you can find on t...   Jun 28 2007, 11:21
|- - Christopher Key   I've had a go at understanding hdcd; see, htt...   Aug 22 2007, 10:57
|- - M   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 22 2007, 04...   Aug 22 2007, 15:33
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (M @ Aug 22 2007, 15:33) QUOTE (Chr...   Aug 22 2007, 17:54
|- - gabeg   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 22 2007, 03...   Aug 24 2007, 01:15
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (gabeg @ Aug 24 2007, 01:15) QUOTE ...   Aug 24 2007, 11:03
|- - MRC01   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 22 2007, 01...   Oct 18 2007, 06:14
- - SebastianG   Nice work! ... The infos about the LFSR are av...   Aug 22 2007, 13:50
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 22 2007, 13:50) N...   Aug 22 2007, 14:04
- - eevan   You can find this link at Wikipedia. Take a look...   Aug 22 2007, 15:29
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (eevan @ Aug 22 2007, 15:29) You ca...   Aug 22 2007, 16:28
- - eevan   I've just tried your command-line decoder on o...   Aug 22 2007, 17:12
- - eevan   Thanks! Cheers   Aug 22 2007, 17:58
- - SebastianG   I didn't try but I'd guess the answer is: ...   Aug 24 2007, 09:15
- - dmckean   It works for me. I think the real solution needs t...   Aug 25 2007, 01:24
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (dmckean @ Aug 25 2007, 01:24) It w...   Aug 25 2007, 16:42
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 24 2007, 12...   Aug 27 2007, 08:21
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 08:21) Q...   Aug 27 2007, 23:17
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 27 2007, 23...   Aug 29 2007, 19:12
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 29 2007, 14...   Aug 30 2007, 20:20
- - Walrusbonzo   Interesting stuff, I have 20~ HDCDs around here. ...   Aug 27 2007, 09:45
|- - adamjk   QUOTE (Walrusbonzo @ Aug 27 2007, 10:45) ...   Aug 27 2007, 11:36
- - Raiden   hdcd.exe < 16bit.wav > 24bit.wav   Aug 27 2007, 12:02
- - Walrusbonzo   Thanks guys.... Got it working.   Aug 27 2007, 13:44
- - Walrusbonzo   I've started to run all my known HDCD encoded ...   Aug 27 2007, 15:20
|- - bryant   QUOTE (Walrusbonzo @ Aug 27 2007, 07:20) ...   Aug 31 2007, 05:36
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 31 2007, 06:36) I als...   Aug 31 2007, 08:27
||- - bryant   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 31 2007, 00:27) Q...   Sep 1 2007, 05:49
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 31 2007, 05:36) Chris...   Aug 31 2007, 11:55
|- - bryant   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 03...   Sep 1 2007, 06:14
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (bryant @ Sep 1 2007, 06:14) I had ...   Sep 13 2007, 13:19
- - skamp   FLAC seems to support 20 bit audio. I don't su...   Aug 27 2007, 16:38
|- - Walrusbonzo   QUOTE (skamp @ Aug 27 2007, 16:38) FLAC s...   Aug 27 2007, 17:43
- - SebastianG   One could modify the decoder to output 24 bit samp...   Aug 27 2007, 18:10
|- - Walrusbonzo   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 18:10) S...   Aug 27 2007, 18:30
|- - skamp   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 19:10) S...   Aug 27 2007, 18:42
||- - lucas1985   I'm with SebastianG. This decoder should be re...   Aug 27 2007, 20:09
|- - SiriusB   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 11:10) O...   Aug 30 2007, 03:38
|- - eevan   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Aug 30 2007, 04:38) Rega...   Aug 30 2007, 11:39
||- - skelly831   QUOTE (eevan @ Aug 30 2007, 03:39) When I...   Aug 30 2007, 15:33
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Aug 30 2007, 03:38) Hi g...   Aug 30 2007, 16:33
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 30 2007, 11...   Aug 30 2007, 19:56
|- - Christopher Key   [quote name='krabapple' date='Aug 30 2...   Aug 31 2007, 11:37
|- - SiriusB   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 04...   Aug 31 2007, 12:14
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Aug 31 2007, 12:14) Rega...   Aug 31 2007, 12:50
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 11...   Aug 31 2007, 17:35
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 17...   Aug 31 2007, 21:52
||- - SebastianG   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 22...   Sep 3 2007, 12:27
||- - gabeg   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Sep 3 2007, 05:27) Pe...   Sep 4 2007, 17:31
||- - SebastianG   QUOTE (gabeg @ Sep 4 2007, 18:31) So does...   Sep 5 2007, 08:29
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Sep 5 2007, 08:29) QU...   Sep 13 2007, 14:13
|- - SiriusB   QUOTE If anyone has access to a hardware decoder w...   Sep 1 2007, 00:36
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Sep 1 2007, 00:36) QUOTE...   Sep 1 2007, 16:09
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Sep 1 2007, 17:0...   Sep 1 2007, 18:50
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (skamp @ Sep 1 2007, 18:50) QUOTE (...   Sep 13 2007, 14:02
- - edwardar   Can I just say I'm very excited about this too...   Aug 27 2007, 23:05
- - Dynamic   The older foobar v0.8 series do allow Playback/Bit...   Aug 28 2007, 10:06
- - SiriusB   Yes, piping makes more sense than the way I did it...   Aug 31 2007, 13:20
- - Egor   FLAC --best compression results, 1.2.0 ICL compile...   Aug 31 2007, 14:38
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Egor @ Aug 31 2007, 14:38) FLAC --...   Aug 31 2007, 22:40
- - Fool_on_the_hill   I did ABX on track Wag The Dog from Mark Knopfler...   Aug 31 2007, 21:19
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (Fool_on_the_hill @ Aug 31 2007, 21...   Sep 1 2007, 01:13
- - Triza   Excellent work. Christopher. Well done. Any chan...   Sep 1 2007, 00:34
- - Fool_on_the_hill   QUOTE Dynamic Posted Yesterday, 18:13 QUOTE(...   Sep 1 2007, 20:32
- - Dynamic   Thanks for the info, FotH. I hadn't noticed th...   Sep 2 2007, 18:37
- - Cavaille   for heavens sake!!! it´s finally happe...   Sep 6 2007, 18:55
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