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Extract HDCD, How I Can extract HDCD by software?
SCIF
post Jan 27 2005, 08:34
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How I Can extract HDCD by software(EAC, WMP9...)?
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SebastianG
post Aug 27 2007, 18:10
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One could modify the decoder to output 24 bit samples where the least significant 4 bits are zero (effective resolution: 20 bits) so it'll compress better using FLAC and/or WavPack.

Since the HDCD decoder attenuates the signal at most by 13.5 dB which translates to 2.25 bits, you won't need more than 20 bits to represent the signal faithfully. So quantizing to 20 bits makes sense and won't hurt (won't effect the noise floor noticably).

Still, what's the point on decoding for lossless storage? Guys! Think about it. I'd keep the 16 bit signal as is and use a HDCD capable player instead!

QUOTE
Interesting result this, the 24bit HDCD decoded version compresses to a size even smaller than the original 16bit.

...which can only mean that your CD doesn't make use of all HDCD features (no "soft dynamics compression").


Cheers!
SG

This post has been edited by SebastianG: Aug 27 2007, 18:23
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SiriusB
post Aug 30 2007, 03:38
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QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 11:10) *
One could modify the decoder to output 24 bit samples where the least significant 4 bits are zero (effective resolution: 20 bits) so it'll compress better using FLAC and/or WavPack.

Since the HDCD decoder attenuates the signal at most by 13.5 dB which translates to 2.25 bits, you won't need more than 20 bits to represent the signal faithfully. So quantizing to 20 bits makes sense and won't hurt (won't effect the noise floor noticably).

Still, what's the point on decoding for lossless storage? Guys! Think about it. I'd keep the 16 bit signal as is and use a HDCD capable player instead!



Hi guys, great thread. I found it earlier and have been posting a lot to the Hoffman forum about my findings, using both the WMP plugin and hdcd.exe.

As for not using lossless storage, that means storing them as 16-bit WAVs; the only HDCD software player I know is player is WMP, which does not recognize wavs as HDCD. You either have to play an actual disc, or mount a virtual one, for WMP to recognize it at HDCD.

Or are you thinking of some other mechanism?


Regarding the two software decoders, I find that they produce almost identical results - I ripped a Joni Mitchell HDCD to my drive with EAC, then mounted it with Daemon tools for WMP (with the WAV plugin and 24-bit playback active), or else fed the .wavs to hdcd.exe. FOr a given track the two resulting .wav files almost null out, though there is tiny, residual signal at -88 dBFS or so, at a few spots (bit comparison with foobar says there are something like ~700 nonidentical samples, in one track, for example). I couldn't tell them apart in an ABX.

Regarding final bit depths, I find that the HDCDs which do NOT use peak extension, and which are highly compressed/limited, so far always decode to '17 bit' files , reduced by 6 dB (examples: Beck and Van Halen HDCDs). THose that use peak extend decode to 20 bit files (e.g. Yes, Joni Mitchell), though some that have no apparent peak extension, but are not super compressed dynamically, also decode to 20 bit files (e.g. King Crimson), with lesser amounts of level reduction. see this post for examples.

Lastly, I find that foobar2000 (v 0.9.4.4) cannot play decoded files made by the WMP plugin (which appear to be in 'wavex' format, and elicit a WAVEXTENSIBLE tag from flac.exe when I compress them) wheras it can play the 24 bit files produced by hdcd.exe, and flacs made from them. Unlike the older foobar, the newer one doesn't have options for setting playback bit depth, as best I can tell.


All feedback appreciated! I'm especially interested to know if the 'low resolution extension' and selectable filter options are actually used by either decoder (I've also got a hardware HDCD player and plan to compare its analog output to the digital 'rips')

QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 27 2007, 16:17) *
I'll have a go tomorrow at adding some more diagnostics, maybe a --verbose option, which will list which features get used after the track's been processed. I'd guess:

Peak extend enabled at some point during the audio
Peak extend disabled at some point during the audio
Peak extend used (|sample|>0x5980 while peak extend used)
Range of gain adjustment values used.


From what I've read (e.g. John Marks' self-interview about his HDCD releases) it appears that the HDCD A/D converter adds the flag that will activate the HDCD logo even if NONE of the processing options are used during the mastering...in other words, if 'HDCD' technology us just used for its high-quality A/D conversion. So WMP would light up the HDCD logo, but simply attenuate these by 6 dB, as it does for all input when the 24 bit option is active (I recall this being a mandate from Pacific Microsonics originally).

This post has been edited by SiriusB: Aug 30 2007, 03:40
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Posts in this topic
- SCIF   Extract HDCD   Jan 27 2005, 08:34
- - Garf   HDCD just uses the standard 16 bit CD Audio encodi...   Jan 27 2005, 10:28
|- - PoisonDan   QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 27 2005, 11:28 AM)For playb...   Jan 27 2005, 10:50
|- - SCIF   QUOTE (PoisonDan @ Jan 27 2005, 07:50 PM)But ...   Jan 28 2005, 03:31
- - Garf   Perhaps it could work when you mount the ripped wa...   Jan 27 2005, 11:44
- - precisionist   QUOTE (SCIF @ Jan 28 2005, 03:31 AM)QUOTE (Po...   Jan 28 2005, 11:17
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (precisionist @ Jan 28 2005, 02:17 AM)M...   Jan 28 2005, 17:02
- - adlai   I was always under the impression that HDCD was si...   Jan 28 2005, 18:00
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 28 2005, 09:00 AM)I was al...   Jan 28 2005, 18:59
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jan 28 2005, 13:59) Q...   Jun 27 2007, 20:44
|- - ProtectYaNeck36   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jan 28 2005, 11:59) Q...   Oct 20 2007, 17:41
- - user   QUOTE (SCIF @ Jan 27 2005, 08:34 AM)How I Can...   Feb 1 2005, 11:31
|- - Night Rain   QUOTE (user @ Feb 1 2005, 02:31) QUOTE (S...   Mar 21 2007, 12:38
- - ShowsOn   I just noticed this thread, and given that I fina...   Feb 1 2005, 13:10
|- - user   as written above, normally 24 bit playback of audi...   Feb 1 2005, 13:45
- - precisionist   QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Feb 1 2005, 01:10 PM)I resta...   Feb 2 2005, 13:26
|- - user   QUOTE (precisionist @ Feb 2 2005, 01:26 PM)My...   Feb 3 2005, 12:02
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (user @ Feb 3 2005, 01:02 PM)QUOTE (pre...   Feb 3 2005, 21:25
- - precisionist   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Feb 3 2005, 09:25 PM)QUOTE (...   Feb 4 2005, 14:23
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (precisionist @ Feb 4 2005, 05:23 AM)Th...   Feb 4 2005, 16:34
- - Pio2001   No software, exept maybe the combination of Window...   Feb 4 2005, 23:29
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Feb 4 2005, 17:29) No so...   Feb 8 2007, 19:15
- - precisionist   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Feb 4 2005, 04:34 PM)Does...   Feb 7 2005, 17:01
- - Eric Carroll   There has been a long running thread on the Slim D...   Feb 26 2007, 06:56
- - markanini   Wow, I wish I knew about this plugin before. Final...   Feb 27 2007, 01:40
|- - Eric Carroll   QUOTE (markanini @ Feb 26 2007, 19:40) Wo...   Feb 27 2007, 04:42
|- - markanini   QUOTE (Eric Carroll @ Feb 27 2007, 05:42)...   Feb 27 2007, 05:26
- - markanini   Since I got too excited about this, here are the w...   Feb 27 2007, 06:31
|- - Eric Carroll   Thanks for looking into this. QUOTE (markanini ...   Feb 27 2007, 06:57
- - markanini   For the sake of visual comparison I adjusted the w...   Feb 27 2007, 07:08
|- - Eric Carroll   Well your results sure look like what I expected t...   Feb 27 2007, 07:14
- - markanini   I used WMP 10.   Feb 27 2007, 07:17
- - SebastianG   I recall someone mentioning on the audioasylum for...   Feb 27 2007, 09:49
|- - user   I have an alternative idea to capture the 2 stream...   Mar 21 2007, 11:41
- - SebastianG   I reviewed the papers about HDCD you can find on t...   Jun 28 2007, 11:21
|- - Christopher Key   I've had a go at understanding hdcd; see, htt...   Aug 22 2007, 10:57
|- - M   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 22 2007, 04...   Aug 22 2007, 15:33
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (M @ Aug 22 2007, 15:33) QUOTE (Chr...   Aug 22 2007, 17:54
|- - gabeg   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 22 2007, 03...   Aug 24 2007, 01:15
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (gabeg @ Aug 24 2007, 01:15) QUOTE ...   Aug 24 2007, 11:03
|- - MRC01   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 22 2007, 01...   Oct 18 2007, 06:14
- - SebastianG   Nice work! ... The infos about the LFSR are av...   Aug 22 2007, 13:50
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 22 2007, 13:50) N...   Aug 22 2007, 14:04
- - eevan   You can find this link at Wikipedia. Take a look...   Aug 22 2007, 15:29
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (eevan @ Aug 22 2007, 15:29) You ca...   Aug 22 2007, 16:28
- - eevan   I've just tried your command-line decoder on o...   Aug 22 2007, 17:12
- - eevan   Thanks! Cheers   Aug 22 2007, 17:58
- - SebastianG   I didn't try but I'd guess the answer is: ...   Aug 24 2007, 09:15
- - dmckean   It works for me. I think the real solution needs t...   Aug 25 2007, 01:24
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (dmckean @ Aug 25 2007, 01:24) It w...   Aug 25 2007, 16:42
- - SebastianG   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 24 2007, 12...   Aug 27 2007, 08:21
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 08:21) Q...   Aug 27 2007, 23:17
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 27 2007, 23...   Aug 29 2007, 19:12
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 29 2007, 14...   Aug 30 2007, 20:20
- - Walrusbonzo   Interesting stuff, I have 20~ HDCDs around here. ...   Aug 27 2007, 09:45
|- - adamjk   QUOTE (Walrusbonzo @ Aug 27 2007, 10:45) ...   Aug 27 2007, 11:36
- - Raiden   hdcd.exe < 16bit.wav > 24bit.wav   Aug 27 2007, 12:02
- - Walrusbonzo   Thanks guys.... Got it working.   Aug 27 2007, 13:44
- - Walrusbonzo   I've started to run all my known HDCD encoded ...   Aug 27 2007, 15:20
|- - bryant   QUOTE (Walrusbonzo @ Aug 27 2007, 07:20) ...   Aug 31 2007, 05:36
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 31 2007, 06:36) I als...   Aug 31 2007, 08:27
||- - bryant   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 31 2007, 00:27) Q...   Sep 1 2007, 05:49
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 31 2007, 05:36) Chris...   Aug 31 2007, 11:55
|- - bryant   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 03...   Sep 1 2007, 06:14
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (bryant @ Sep 1 2007, 06:14) I had ...   Sep 13 2007, 13:19
- - skamp   FLAC seems to support 20 bit audio. I don't su...   Aug 27 2007, 16:38
|- - Walrusbonzo   QUOTE (skamp @ Aug 27 2007, 16:38) FLAC s...   Aug 27 2007, 17:43
- - SebastianG   One could modify the decoder to output 24 bit samp...   Aug 27 2007, 18:10
|- - Walrusbonzo   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 18:10) S...   Aug 27 2007, 18:30
|- - skamp   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 19:10) S...   Aug 27 2007, 18:42
||- - lucas1985   I'm with SebastianG. This decoder should be re...   Aug 27 2007, 20:09
|- - SiriusB   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Aug 27 2007, 11:10) O...   Aug 30 2007, 03:38
|- - eevan   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Aug 30 2007, 04:38) Rega...   Aug 30 2007, 11:39
||- - skelly831   QUOTE (eevan @ Aug 30 2007, 03:39) When I...   Aug 30 2007, 15:33
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Aug 30 2007, 03:38) Hi g...   Aug 30 2007, 16:33
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 30 2007, 11...   Aug 30 2007, 19:56
|- - Christopher Key   [quote name='krabapple' date='Aug 30 2...   Aug 31 2007, 11:37
|- - SiriusB   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 04...   Aug 31 2007, 12:14
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Aug 31 2007, 12:14) Rega...   Aug 31 2007, 12:50
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 11...   Aug 31 2007, 17:35
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 17...   Aug 31 2007, 21:52
||- - SebastianG   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Aug 31 2007, 22...   Sep 3 2007, 12:27
||- - gabeg   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Sep 3 2007, 05:27) Pe...   Sep 4 2007, 17:31
||- - SebastianG   QUOTE (gabeg @ Sep 4 2007, 18:31) So does...   Sep 5 2007, 08:29
||- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SebastianG @ Sep 5 2007, 08:29) QU...   Sep 13 2007, 14:13
|- - SiriusB   QUOTE If anyone has access to a hardware decoder w...   Sep 1 2007, 00:36
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (SiriusB @ Sep 1 2007, 00:36) QUOTE...   Sep 1 2007, 16:09
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Christopher Key @ Sep 1 2007, 17:0...   Sep 1 2007, 18:50
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (skamp @ Sep 1 2007, 18:50) QUOTE (...   Sep 13 2007, 14:02
- - edwardar   Can I just say I'm very excited about this too...   Aug 27 2007, 23:05
- - Dynamic   The older foobar v0.8 series do allow Playback/Bit...   Aug 28 2007, 10:06
- - SiriusB   Yes, piping makes more sense than the way I did it...   Aug 31 2007, 13:20
- - Egor   FLAC --best compression results, 1.2.0 ICL compile...   Aug 31 2007, 14:38
|- - Christopher Key   QUOTE (Egor @ Aug 31 2007, 14:38) FLAC --...   Aug 31 2007, 22:40
- - Fool_on_the_hill   I did ABX on track Wag The Dog from Mark Knopfler...   Aug 31 2007, 21:19
|- - Dynamic   QUOTE (Fool_on_the_hill @ Aug 31 2007, 21...   Sep 1 2007, 01:13
- - Triza   Excellent work. Christopher. Well done. Any chan...   Sep 1 2007, 00:34
- - Fool_on_the_hill   QUOTE Dynamic Posted Yesterday, 18:13 QUOTE(...   Sep 1 2007, 20:32
- - Dynamic   Thanks for the info, FotH. I hadn't noticed th...   Sep 2 2007, 18:37
- - Cavaille   for heavens sake!!! it´s finally happe...   Sep 6 2007, 18:55
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