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best settings for 128kbps VBR
rudefyet
post Jan 15 2005, 20:59
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I'm trying to squeeze the best possible quality out of a 128kbps mp3

so far i've been using "-V 5 -h" with Lame 3.96.1

i wasn't sure about the -h, should i use it? and is there anything else i should add?

These will be streaming off a webserver, that's why i need them to be 128kbps (or close to that since i prefer VBR)

This post has been edited by rudefyet: Jan 15 2005, 21:10
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Cygnus X1
post Jan 15 2005, 21:15
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For ~ 128kbps VBR, the general consensus has been to use "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" with LAME 3.95.1 or higher. The ATH adjustment was found to result in less warbling/phasing, but may raise the bitrate a little bit.

The -h is redundant and therefore not needed.
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rudefyet
post Jan 15 2005, 21:48
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thanks

the reason i was worrying about using "-h" which is the same as -q2, cause without it, the encoder uses -q3 instead

so are you saying theres no difference between the two?

This post has been edited by rudefyet: Jan 15 2005, 21:49
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darky
post Jan 15 2005, 21:52
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So "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" is better than "--preset 128 --athaa-sensitivity 1"?
I don't know it at all. I would use "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" but I don't know.

/edit: So at those bitrates is it better to use VBR instead ABR? I just don't know.

This post has been edited by darky: Jan 15 2005, 21:54


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Cygnus X1
post Jan 15 2005, 22:03
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QUOTE (rudefyet @ Jan 15 2005, 03:48 PM)
thanks

the reason i was worrying about using "-h" which is the same as -q2, cause without it, the encoder uses -q3 instead

so are you saying theres no difference between the two?
*


From about 3.94 or 3.95 onward, the default "high-quality" setting is -q3, not -q2. As far as I know, there is not yet been any evidence to show that lower -q values bring higher quality, so just stick with the default. -q0-q2 also take longer to encode, which isn't worth it considering the aformentioned lack of evidence.
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Jojo
post Jan 15 2005, 22:39
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QUOTE (darky @ Jan 15 2005, 12:52 PM)
So "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" is better than "--preset 128 --athaa-sensitivity 1"?
I don't know it at all. I would use "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" but I don't know.

/edit: So at those bitrates is it better to use VBR instead ABR? I just don't know.
*

personally, I think that there is no need for CBR/ABR anymore because of the VBR presets aka -V2 etc. Anyway, -V5 should be better...


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rudefyet
post Jan 16 2005, 05:04
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thanks for the help

but i was also wondering...does the prefrence of "--athaa-sensitivity 1" apply to all bitrates or just a certain range?
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randallrp
post Jan 16 2005, 07:42
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Hello

I just finished encoding about 150 songs with the "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1"
(3.96.1 ) setting. I'm happy. I found this preferable to "--alt-preset 128" (3.90.3) for my needs. I also noticed that when I tried "-V4 --athaa-sensitivity 1" that the file sizes jumped up quite a bit. I too am not sure when the "--athaa-sensitivity 1" should be used

There is a thread discussing some of the tests recently done with VBR and lower bit rate encoding. I would suggest reading it as well.

Regards
Randy
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Gecko
post Jan 16 2005, 12:56
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QUOTE (rudefyet @ Jan 15 2005, 10:48 PM)
the reason i was worrying about using "-h" which is the same as -q2, cause without it, the encoder uses -q3 instead
*

AFAIK q2 from 3.90.3 = q3 from 3.96.1. Just a shift in numbers.
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PoisonDan
post Jan 16 2005, 13:45
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QUOTE (rudefyet @ Jan 16 2005, 06:04 AM)
thanks for the help

but i was also wondering...does the prefrence of "--athaa-sensitivity 1" apply to all bitrates or just a certain range?
*

You don't need to use it at -V4 or higher quality levels. Look here for the explanation by Gabriel. You can also read that entire thread if you want more information on how we got to this.

And for the people that didn't know this already: "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" was also used for Roberto's latest 128kbps test, and it performed quite well (roughly on par with iTunes AAC):
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html


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rudefyet
post Jan 16 2005, 23:49
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offtopic from my original post....but is 89db the best setting for mp3gain?

cause everything sounds really quiet

edit: nm answered my own question by searching around

This post has been edited by rudefyet: Jan 17 2005, 00:25
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magic75
post Jan 17 2005, 15:16
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QUOTE (Jojo @ Jan 15 2005, 01:39 PM)
personally, I think that there is no need for CBR/ABR anymore because of the VBR presets aka -V2 etc. Anyway, -V5 should be better...

Though for lower bitrates there still seems to be some issues with VBR:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=264990
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esa372
post Jan 19 2005, 18:18
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QUOTE (rudefyet @ Jan 15 2005, 09:04 PM)
...i was also wondering...does the prefrence of "--athaa-sensitivity 1" apply to all bitrates or just a certain range?
Good question... Anybody have an answer?
smile.gif


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SirGrey
post Jan 19 2005, 19:20
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>>personally, I think that there is no need for CBR/ABR
??
Are you kidding ?
Think of streaming...
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Jojo
post Jan 19 2005, 19:22
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QUOTE (esa372 @ Jan 19 2005, 09:18 AM)
QUOTE (rudefyet @ Jan 15 2005, 09:04 PM)
...i was also wondering...does the prefrence of "--athaa-sensitivity 1" apply to all bitrates or just a certain range?
Good question... Anybody have an answer?
smile.gif
*


that has been already answered in this thread (just a few posts above yours)...

QUOTE (PoisonDan @ Jan 16 2005, 04:45 AM)
You don't need to use it at -V4 or higher quality levels. Look here for the explanation by Gabriel. You can also read that entire thread if you want more information on how we got to this.

And for the people that didn't know this already: "-V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1" was also used for Roberto's latest 128kbps test, and it performed quite well (roughly on par with iTunes AAC):
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html
*


This post has been edited by Jojo: Jan 19 2005, 19:23


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Jojo
post Jan 19 2005, 19:25
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QUOTE (SirGrey @ Jan 19 2005, 10:20 AM)
>>personally, I think that there is no need for CBR/ABR
??
Are you kidding ?
Think of streaming...
*

who uses mp3 for streaming? And what's wrong with a vbr stream?


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LAME + Joint Stereo doesn't destroy 'Stereo'
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SirGrey
post Jan 19 2005, 19:35
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>>who uses mp3 for streaming?
Everybody.
Almost smile.gif
You can stream not only a music, video+sound too.

>>And what's wrong with a vbr stream?
??
The main problem is that it's vbr...
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esa372
post Jan 19 2005, 19:37
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QUOTE (Jojo @ Jan 19 2005, 11:22 AM)
that has been already answered in this thread (just a few posts above yours)...
D'OH! pinch.gif

Thanks, Jojo...

My apologies for the redundancy...
blush.gif


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beto
post Jan 19 2005, 19:39
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I use mp3 for streaming. What is the problem with that??? huh.gif
It suits all my needs plus works flawlessly (unlike other streams I tested)...

VBR streaming works ok for me...


EDIT: typo

This post has been edited by beto: Jan 19 2005, 19:40


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SirGrey
post Jan 19 2005, 19:43
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>>What is the problem with that???
With fixed channel width, if bitrate exceeds it you will have a glitch...
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freakngoat
post Jan 19 2005, 19:52
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QUOTE (SirGrey @ Jan 19 2005, 11:43 AM)
>>What is the problem with that???
With fixed channel width, if bitrate exceeds it you will have a glitch...
*


Of course this totally depends on the underlying protocol. Most audio streaming now is done via TCP, which handles the flow control so VBR is not a problem. Of course TCP is not the ideal multimedia protocol, but that doesn't stop people from using it (its easy to use and is network-friendly).

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Jojo
post Jan 19 2005, 20:05
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also, talking about 'glitches' in mp3 streams...at what bitrate are those streams usually done? I mean, even if that happens it's not that some one listens to some 320kbps stream...I'd say streams mostly use 128kbps or less...however, I can't think of any web radio or something that streams in mp3...and as freakngoat said, there's a work around to that...

Overall, I think that just a vbr mode in LAME would have many more advantages than disadvantages...


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LAME + Joint Stereo doesn't destroy 'Stereo'
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freakngoat
post Jan 19 2005, 20:27
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QUOTE (Jojo @ Jan 19 2005, 12:05 PM)
also, talking about 'glitches' in mp3 streams...at what bitrate are those streams usually done? I mean, even if that happens it's not that some one listens to some 320kbps stream...I'd say streams mostly use 128kbps or less...however, I can't think of any web radio or something that streams in mp3...and as freakngoat said, there's a work around to that...

Overall, I think that just a vbr mode in LAME would have many more advantages than disadvantages...
*


Yes most streaming is done at lower bitrates for obvious reasons. VBR creates a variety of problems. One of the problems with using VBR in multimedia streaming is that if you are not using any flow control mechanism, and your bitrate suddenly jumps up above your maximum bandwidth, those frames will be lost (this has a profound effect in MPEG video streaming, since the most likely frame to be dropped is the I-frame, and thus all the frames received up until the next I-frame will be junk). Other problems arise when using a packet resend strategy (like TCP). Peaks and valleys in birates are not network friendly with multiple receivers, since more packets are likely to be dropped at a peak, and so more people will request a resend at once, choking off bandwidth for everyone. Luckily TCP has a congestion avoidance scheme as well, otherwise a "broadcast storm" can occur, where everyone is requesting a resend, but nobody backs off. If this occurs effective playback becomes impossible.

What it comes down to is, VBR creates non-network friendly traffic with multiple receivers.

EDIT: BTW there are lots of radio stations streaming in MP3. Also in my previous post, I should have said VBR is "possible," as I've just described the problems associated with it.

This post has been edited by freakngoat: Jan 19 2005, 20:59
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beto
post Jan 19 2005, 22:09
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does these VBR drawbacks occur only with mp3 VBR or with other VBR streamable codecs (ogg, aac etc. etc.)?

anyway. i stream mp3 vbr from my home pc to my work pc and never heard any glitch... perhaps I'm just lucky. biggrin.gif


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SirGrey
post Jan 19 2005, 22:31
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>>perhaps I'm just lucky
Sure, wide channel, one transmitter - one receiver: no problems most of the time... wink.gif

I think, freakngoat described the problem with vbr very well:
QUOTE
What it comes down to is, VBR creates non-network friendly traffic with multiple receivers.

It couldn't be done better with one sentence cool.gif

EDIT:
QUOTE
does these VBR drawbacks occur only with mp3 VBR or with other VBR streamable codecs

That's the nature of vbr, not the codec...

This post has been edited by SirGrey: Jan 19 2005, 22:32
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