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mp3gain
choccyx
post Nov 18 2004, 15:09
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I have an Iriver H140 [love it]

Ive just ripped all my cds using Eac and lame

I want to alter them so they are all roughly at the same volume level

The reccommended "target normal volume" setting on mp3gain of 89 db is way too low

Ive scanned some of my ripped albums and they tend to range from about 89 ish up to 98 ish

I want to make them all around 95 db

When I do this a lot of them show up as clipping

Surely this isnt going to spoil the sound that much

Also is there any way to get over the different requirements for listening to albums at the same relitive volume setting
And listening to play lists from multiple albums

thx
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Andavari
post Nov 18 2004, 15:49
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I suggest you read the information provided on www.replaygain.org. The ideal is to reduce or eliminate clipping. Turn up your volume nob, then you'll get the "loudness" you want.

Also in your future posts will you please write normal sentences that end with periods, etc., and are not spaced apart after each line.


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Digga
post Nov 18 2004, 15:51
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QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 18 2004, 03:09 PM)
I want to make them all around 95 db
When I do this a lot of them show up as clipping
Surely this isnt going to spoil the sound that much
no wonder they clip at 95, that's still pretty loud, and the tracks are not too unlikely to clip. however, the clipping detection of MP3Gain is very very sensitive, you may not hear the clipped samples. it depends how good your hearing is and how trained for this kind of disturbance.
anyway, you might consider setting the gain to ~92.

QUOTE
Also is there any way to get over the different requirements for listening to albums at the same relitive volume setting
And listening to play lists from multiple albums
blink.gif please rephrase.

edit: spelling

This post has been edited by Digga: Nov 18 2004, 15:53


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choccyx
post Nov 18 2004, 16:18
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After ripping loads of the cds were higher than 95 db in any case.
So if anything Ive improved at least some of the mp3s.

The iRiver H140 is quite a low volume machine.Even at 95 the volume at the max setting is not very loud.
To rephrase the last part of my post:
You can adjust gain by album or track.

Album setting is good for listening to whole albums.
But not so good for listening to playlists made up of different albums.
True or false.

I will try and improve on my typing skills.
Btw nob is spelled Knob.

This post has been edited by choccyx: Nov 18 2004, 17:06
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choccyx
post Nov 18 2004, 16:24
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Please note this article:
http://pages.globetrotter.net/bakerywizard/guide.htm

He implies that at 98 db the clipping is not noticeable.
He could be a little bit deaf or untrained in hearing defects in mp3s.

A bit like me.

No offense intended.

unsure.gif

This post has been edited by choccyx: Nov 18 2004, 16:26
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Digga
post Nov 18 2004, 16:38
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QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 18 2004, 04:18 PM)
To rephrase the last part of my post:
You can adjust gain bt album or track.
Album setting is good for listening to whole albums.
But not so good for listening to platlists made up of different albums.
True or false.
it depends on what you want. read the FAQ inside MP3Gain.


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ssamadhi97
post Nov 18 2004, 18:08
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QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 18 2004, 04:24 PM)
Please note this article:
http://pages.globetrotter.net/bakerywizard/guide.htm

He implies that at 98 db the clipping is not noticeable.
He could be a little bit deaf or untrained in hearing defects in mp3s.
*

That guy needs to be flamed for spreading dangerous misinformation like "I don't hear any problems, so I recommend fucking up your music collection with the same insane replaygain reference level." Chances are that he doesn't really understand the concept of replaygain or the motivation behind the "low" reference level.

QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 18 2004, 04:24 PM)
He could be a little bit deaf or untrained in hearing defects in mp3s.
*

He could have a collection of contemporary pop and rock music which is mastered so loud that a 98dB reference level will STILL always result in a level reduction for playback so no clipping is introduced. However, throw one record from 1990 at it, and chances are that it'll go BOOM. (or rather CLIP)


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choccyx
post Nov 18 2004, 19:19
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The problem is this.
If I set all my albums to 89 db gain they sound too low even at maximum volume on mYy iRiver H140

Hmm
I might try 192 db and see how it works out

Just done a quick check

This is what EAC and lame provided for these albums

Astral Weeks Van Morrison

Approx average vol = 90

Whats the story morning glory


Approx average vol = 96

Hmm

This post has been edited by choccyx: Nov 18 2004, 19:20
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dreamliner77
post Nov 19 2004, 05:33
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What headphones are you using? Perhaps your iRiver can't drive the properly, in which case you should invest in either more sensitive phones or a headphone amp.


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choccyx
post Nov 19 2004, 13:49
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QUOTE (dreamliner77 @ Nov 19 2004, 04:33 AM)
What headphones are you using?  Perhaps your iRiver can't drive the properly, in which case you should invest in either more sensitive phones or a headphone amp.
*


Sennheiser px200

Lots of ppl complain about the low volume issue on the iRiver H1xx series
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2Bdecided
post Nov 19 2004, 14:55
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choccyx,

Set the target level at whatever you want - if it sounds fine to you, it is fine. If all your songs were loud to start with, then it won't be a problem. If you're maxing out your player's amp and headphones, then a little extra clipping may be the least of your problems anyway!


However, as for http://pages.globetrotter.net/bakerywizard/guide.htm

QUOTE
Although I realize that the default value in MP3Gain comes preset at 89 db, and that choosing a much higher value such as 98 db will show some form of track clipping inside MP3Gain, I myself  however have never been able to hear this clipping personally on any of my tracks, using this value. Neither have I ever seen test results anywhere to demonstrate that the suggested clipping can be audible.


Well, the best you can say about this is that at least people can easily undo this advice if/when they discover that it's wrong.

I love the assertion that no one has done a listening test - would you like to listen to this? ...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=29512

Shall we ABX? ;-) You can make your own original by mp3ganing back down to a sensible level. The recording is from 1937, and pushing it to 98dB predictably wrecks it.

Maybe I'll email the author of the site - you never know.

EDIT: Ah, but I feel I should try his software and say something nice about it first. It looks very cool - if only it interfaced with foobar!

EDIT2:
QUOTE
It is a well known unfortunate fact that nearly all pre 1990 albums will have a 3 to 10 db drop in the overall sound level compared to today's new CD releases


On second thoughts, I think I'll leave it to someone else! Be gentle. smile.gif

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Nov 19 2004, 15:02
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sld
post Nov 19 2004, 15:31
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QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 19 2004, 08:49 PM)
Sennheiser px200

Lots of ppl complain about the low volume issue on the iRiver H1xx series
*


I use the px200 on my imp 550, and music already sounds loud at 21/40 even if I'm sitting at the back of a bus, where the engine usually is. 40/40 would be insane, unless the low volume issue is really serious.

Edit: The mp3gain level for my mp3s was 94 dB.

This post has been edited by sld: Nov 19 2004, 15:33
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choccyx
post Nov 19 2004, 17:09
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I have mine set to 95 gain at this moment in time.
I must say it sounds sweet and I cant really hear any clipping

Im gonna use this for a while and if its ok Ill stick with it.

89 is way too low for me.
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k.eight.a
post Nov 19 2004, 17:29
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QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 19 2004, 08:09 AM)
I have mine set to 95 gain at this moment in time.
I must say it sounds sweet and I cant really hear any clipping

Im gonna use this for a while and if its ok Ill stick with it.

89 is way too low for me.
*


And what about album gain max. no-clip to each of your albums...
I think that your goal is impossible when 89db is too low for you AFAIK...


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choccyx
post Nov 20 2004, 17:34
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And what about album gain max. no-clip to each of your albums...
I think that your goal is impossible when 89db is too low for you AFAIK...
*
[/quote]

When I set up "Enable Maximising Features I get informed that this is not a good thing to do


http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_norm.html

Thx
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Jojo
post Nov 21 2004, 00:26
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I got an iPod mini and all my mp3's are gained at 89dB...I use Sennheiser Px-100 headphones and I never had any problems. Even at the airplane there is still enough volume avilable...never had to turn it all the way up to the max.


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k.eight.a
post Nov 21 2004, 13:49
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QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 20 2004, 08:34 AM)
When I set up "Enable Maximising Features I get informed that this is not a good thing to do

http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_norm.html

Thx
*


Well what can I say? Just try it! In most cases when you apply max. no-clip album gain you lowers the volume of the original MP3 (reffered to 1980-today rock / metal albums)...


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larswes
post Nov 21 2004, 17:59
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I (a newbie) have a question about all this:
If I rip one of these modern, loud, and extremely compressed cd tracks, encodes with LAME and get clipping. Will not these "clipped" parts in the track sound bad, whatever you do to adjust it after encoding?
I mean: can MP3gain or anything else repair the damage?
Edit: In this example there's no clipping before encoding, it's introduced during encoding. I've done som testing.

This post has been edited by larswes: Nov 21 2004, 18:51
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Madrigal
post Nov 21 2004, 20:39
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QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Nov 21 2004, 07:49 AM)
QUOTE (choccyx @ Nov 20 2004, 08:34 AM)
When I set up "Enable Maximising Features I get informed that this is not a good thing to do

http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_norm.html

Thx
*


Well what can I say? Just try it! In most cases when you apply max. no-clip album gain you lowers the volume of the original MP3 (reffered to 1980-today rock / metal albums)...
*

The only real danger lies in applying Max No-clip Gain for Each File, which is rarely a wise thing to do.

But if the relative gain of all the tracks being processed as an album is suitable to begin with, you can never go wrong with applying Max No-clip Gain for Album.

Regards,
Madrigal
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k.eight.a
post Nov 22 2004, 07:51
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QUOTE (larswes @ Nov 21 2004, 08:59 AM)
I (a newbie) have a question about all this:
If I rip one of these modern, loud, and extremely compressed cd tracks, encodes with LAME and get clipping. Will not these "clipped" parts in the track sound bad, whatever you do to adjust it after encoding?
I mean: can MP3gain or anything else repair the damage?
Edit: In this example there's no clipping before encoding, it's introduced during encoding. I've done som testing.
*


Yes, by Mp3Gain you can repair the clipping that was introduced by encoding...


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larswes
post Nov 22 2004, 10:37
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QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Nov 22 2004, 08:51 AM)
Yes, by Mp3Gain you can repair the clipping that was introduced by encoding...
Yes, it seems that Mp3Gain is doing a great job.
But don't I lose information when clipping is introduced by encoding?
If I lose data, can Mp3Gain really undo it?
I've read the Mp3gain FAQ, can't find the answer there. In fact I hope I'm wrong, and no info is lost. But I want to be sure.
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2Bdecided
post Nov 22 2004, 11:24
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QUOTE (larswes @ Nov 22 2004, 09:37 AM)
QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Nov 22 2004, 08:51 AM)
Yes, by Mp3Gain you can repair the clipping that was introduced by encoding...
Yes, it seems that Mp3Gain is doing a great job.
But don't I lose information when clipping is introduced by encoding?
If I lose data, can Mp3Gain really undo it?
I've read the Mp3gain FAQ, can't find the answer there. In fact I hope I'm wrong, and no info is lost. But I want to be sure.
*


I was surprised that, in five minutes, I couldn't find the answer to this on-line either. It must have been answered many times, but it may be quicker to answer again than to keep searching!

If something is "clipped" it means that the sample value is (or should be) above digital full scale - but gets "clipped" to exactly digital full scale, because there are no larger numbers available to represent the true value.

The mp3 encoded version is clipping because the original CD had sample values were very near, or equal to, digital full scale. Mp3 encoding changes the waveform slightly - so that (often as not) these nearly clipped samples get pushed slightly higher, into clipping.

The reason you can recover these samples is because mp3 files can store values greater than digital full scale. So, they've been pushed up out of the range the mp3 decoder or player can handle, but they're still in the mp3 file. If you can adjust the volume down slightly before you play the file back, everything will come out fine, because the values will be decoded into the range below digital full scale = no clipping.


If mp3 encoding only pushed the values slightly higher, it probably wouldn't be worth worrying about this, but some circumstances cause peak values to increase dramatically - it's not a fault, just a fact of life - there's more about it here:

http://www.ff123.net/norm.html


To prove to yourself that what I'm suggesting is happening is happening, try this:

1. Take a file (preferably a nice quiet file) and mp3gain it to some stupid amount (110dB or something).
2. Listen to it - it should sound awful - it'll be full of clipping.
3. mp3gain it back down to, say, 89dB.
4. Listen to it again - the clipping has gone. It was only temporary.

Obviously mp3gain can't do anything about clipping which was present in the original source (e.g. CD).

Cheers,
David.
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k.eight.a
post Nov 22 2004, 12:03
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I have nothing to say you more... I've already answered. Sorry for my poor English but I think I've written it very clearly...


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larswes
post Nov 22 2004, 12:17
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2Bdecided, thanks very much for your full explanation! smile.gif
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 22 2004, 12:24 PM)
The reason you can recover these samples is because mp3 files can store values greater than digital full scale...

I didn't know about this, thanks again for explaining!
The last month I've read a lot of posts here at HA, but haven't seen this explained before. (Or I missed it crying.gif )
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larswes
post Nov 22 2004, 12:27
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QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Nov 22 2004, 01:03 PM)
I have nothing to say you more... I've already answered. Sorry for my poor English but I think I've written it very clearly...

Your english is good enough for me. I was only hard to convince, I'm sorry for that.
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