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Creation of a separate FLAC subforum, along a 'general' lossless codecs forum
Polar
post Aug 10 2004, 11:11
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First off: my sincere thanks for all of the valuable effort each and every one of you, from administrators over moderators down to newbie members, invest into this great board, making it the most informative audio-related resource on the net. In the few months I've been reading it, and trying to contribute something worthwhile myself now and again, I've learnt quite a lot.

I've been searching both this site related and the lossless forum, but haven't been able to track that what I was wondering about has been suggested before, so here goes.

Considering the appearantly lasting popularity of FLAC as a lossless audio format, as both this month's and last year's lossless codec polls have illustrated, along with FLAC being the object of a rough estimate of some 2/3 of all recent posts in the lossless codecs forum, I thought it might prove to be useful to create a separate FLAC subforum. The current Lossless Codecs forum would then have to be renamed to e.g. Lossless Codecs - General. A similar subdivision (with Lossy Codecs becoming the current AAC, MP3, MPC and Ogg Vorbis subforums) has of course been carried out before, as this thread, among others, illustrates.

This split-up is not intended in favour of or against whichever format. I just thought it might help streamline and redirect the ever growing number of posts on lossless audio.

Any thoughts and opinions are appreciated.

Edit: Once again: I seem to have misunderstood the thread I mentioned as a precedent. In that particular case, an extra
Other Audio Codecs forum was created, catalysing all non-general audio related issues away from the General Audio forum. My apologies.


This post has been edited by Polar: Aug 12 2004, 14:44
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Polar
post Aug 12 2004, 14:29
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 10 2004, 15:20 UTC)
And I don't think it's justifiable to split the lossless forum in "Flac" and "Everything else". There simply isn't enough discussion going on about lossless to justify a split, I think.
*
Strange of you to say such a thing. The sheer No of daily posts refutes that right away. Some 10 to 30 entries a day is hardly any less than any of the lossy forums on theirselves. Quite the contrary, so it seems.
And with HDD prices/GB and Internet subscription prices/Mbps in a constant free-fall, the No of lossless users is very unlikely to go down. A subdivision of the lossless forum could be an OK way for HA to stay ahead of things (i.e. a rise of daily posts).

QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 10 2004, 15:20 UTC)
Lossless discussion is naturally limited because there's no point discussing subjects like quality and listening tests, like happens in the lossy forums.
*
Of course, but there's all the more to talk about when it comes to practical usage. A mere quick look at the average subject line will prove that. That can't count for a reason to reject such a forum either.

QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 10 2004, 15:20 UTC)
And also, because most people are still on lossy.
*
Same argument as the not enough discussion one above, hence same answer. The daily No of posts in the lossless forum refutes this kind of dismissal.
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picmixer
post Aug 12 2004, 14:59
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Personally I don't think a seperate FLAC forum is nessecary. Basically for the same reasons that Rjamorim explained allready. Lossy encoding is basically still a lot more popular then lossless encoding and forum traffic wouldn't justify a whole dedicated subforum.

Also what would happen to all the other lossless codecs ? Would the lossless forum then have to be split into "FLAC" and "other lossless codecs". IMHO not really an appropriate thing to do.
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PoisonDan
post Aug 12 2004, 21:24
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In my opinion, you should either create these subforums:

- FLAC
- Monkey's Audio
- WavPack
- Other Lossless Codecs

or no lossless codec subforums at all.

It really makes no sense to create one single subforum for FLAC only, and leave other popular lossless codecs in the "other lossless codecs" forum. Otherwise we could just as well have one forum for Musepack (look here) and move discussion of MP3, Ogg Vorbis and AAC to a forum called "other lossy codecs".


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M
post Aug 12 2004, 21:45
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QUOTE (PoisonDan @ Aug 12 2004, 03:24 PM)
In my opinion, you should either create these subforums:

- FLAC
- Monkey's Audio
- WavPack
- Other Lossless Codecs

or no lossless codec subforums at all.
*

That's a perfect example of why the lossless forum should remain as it is; if subdivided, many of us would see no reason for a "Monkey's Audio" subforum. (... other than, perhaps, to address questions like "Why/how the &#!% are my APE files screwed up?)

- M.
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Polar
post Aug 13 2004, 09:19
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QUOTE (M @ Aug 12 2004, 20:45 UTC)
That's a perfect example of why the lossless forum should remain as it is; if subdivided, many of us would see no reason for a "Monkey's Audio" subforum.
huh.gif I'm not sure I get the logic of that, M. Could you try being a little bit more elaborate?
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Polar
post Aug 13 2004, 15:48
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QUOTE (jcoalson @ Aug 10 2004, 15:43 UTC)
QUOTE (Polar @ Aug 10 2004, 10:15 UTC)
With FLAC retaining the top rank and even reinforcing its lead in popularity and use over the other codecs, getting over half of the votes in both polls and some 2/3 of all posts in this particular forum, perhaps the time has come to consider creating a separate FLAC subforum, along with or next to this one...
that would help me keep up on the FLAC topics for sure!
*
All the better if it would for you, but I was actually having those readers in mind who can't see the wood for the trees, with the palette of codecs in the lossless forum being diverse as it is. That way, the posts on FLAC, constituting a large majority of all of the topics in the current forum, would at least be diverted. Which could make it easier for both FLAC and non-FLAC users, in my view, making both subdivisions quite a bit more specific.
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Lev
post Aug 13 2004, 16:06
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This is unnecessary at the moment. It might be a good idea in the future, depending on forum user base growth, though smile.gif


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rjamorim
post Aug 13 2004, 16:20
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QUOTE (Polar @ Aug 12 2004, 10:29 AM)
Strange of you to say such a thing. The sheer No of daily posts refutes that right away. Some 10 to 30 entries a day is hardly any less than any of the lossy forums on theirselves. Quite the contrary, so it seems.


Where are you coming from with these statistics of "10 to 30" (quite some precision there!) posts per day?

QUOTE
Same argument as the not enough discussion one above, hence same answer. The daily No of posts in the lossless forum refutes this kind of dismissal.
*


Again, you are coming up with statistics out of nowhere. Care to compare how many posts go into the lossless forum compared to all the lossy forums summed?

And I agree with M, if FLAC is going to have it's own forum, why not Monkey's Audio, that still has a very big user base, as your own poll showed? And why not WavPack, that with release 4 is seeing it's user base grow? And why not Apple Lossless, since it's an "obvious winner" of that poll?

Of course, there's no way all these subforums would be justifiable, since most of the discussion would end up pulverized and each of them would end up receiving a handful of posts per week. That's a waste of resources IMO, and would only make forum browsing painful for those interested in finding generic information about lossless codecs.

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Aug 13 2004, 16:22


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Jan S.
post Aug 13 2004, 16:39
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Also it is problematic to change the forum structure. What should we do with all the old posts? I for one don't have a week to find all flac topics.

Also many topics doesn't deal with flac exclusively. What to do with those? split split split splitting headache.

Basicly I agree with the opposition to this proposal on all accounts, but as one of the people that has to do the work here I often see things from the pragmatic view.
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Polar
post Aug 14 2004, 09:57
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 13 2004, 15:20 UTC)
Where are you coming from with these statistics of "10 to 30" (quite some precision there!) posts per day?
(...)
Again, you are coming up with statistics out of nowhere.
*
Anyone who can count and takes the trouble to score up the No of posts will end up with a fork of 10 to 30 a day. Not much theoretical statistics involved there.

QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 13 2004, 15:20 UTC)
Care to compare how many posts go into the lossless forum compared to all the lossy forums summed?
*
No. That wouldn't be a fair comparison. The lossless forum on itself easily generates the same amount of traffic of each of the lossy forums individually, or more, and that is the comparison to make, IMHO.

QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 13 2004, 15:20 UTC)
And I agree with M, if FLAC is going to have it's own forum, why not Monkey's Audio, that still has a very big user base, as your own poll showed? And why not WavPack, that with release 4 is seeing it's user base grow? And why not Apple Lossless, since it's an "obvious winner" of that poll?
*
(Since you seem to be taking pleasure in quoting yours truly, I'll go with the flow wink.gif)
Because FLAC has been getting over half of the votes in both polls and is the object of a rough estimate of some 2/3 of all recent posts in the lossless codecs forum. Which is also the main argument against PoisonDan's statement:
QUOTE (PoisonDan @ Aug 12 2004, 20:24 UTC)
It really makes no sense to create one single subforum for FLAC only, and leave other popular lossless codecs in the "other lossless codecs" forum. Otherwise we could just as well have one forum for Musepack (look here) and move discussion of MP3, Ogg Vorbis and AAC to a forum called "other lossy codecs".
*
MusePack just doesn't have the same kind of ascendancy that FLAC has over its competition codecs, especially outside specialistic Hydrogenaudio.

QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 13 2004, 15:20 UTC)
Of course, there's no way all these subforums would be justifiable, since most of the discussion would end up pulverized and each of them would end up receiving a handful of posts per week. That's a waste of resources IMO, and would only make forum browsing painful for those interested in finding generic information about lossless codecs.
*
I'll agree that a set of lossless subforums would be inappropriate, but let me repeat that I have pleaded for the creation of only one, not more. So I see no reason to fear any decline in participation.
Besides, can anyone explain to me why subdividing a successful forum into two would be a waste of resources, especially when watching certain A/V forums on HA receiving, to put it mildly, moderate interest? I haven't seen anyone complaining of a waste of resources in that case. Where's the point of balance? I'd rather consider such a measure to be resource friendly, since people won't be having to search and click their way through the topics as much.
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Polar
post Aug 14 2004, 10:13
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Aug 13 2004, 15:39 UTC)
Also it is problematic to change the forum structure. What should we do with all the old posts? I for one don't have a week to find all flac topics.
*
Surely, it can't take ages to migrate. FWIW, I'd be willing to help. That's a promise.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Aug 13 2004, 15:39 UTC)
Also many topics doesn't deal with flac exclusively.
*
The same can be said of many topics in any of the lossy forums. Lots of lossy topics make mention of more than one codec, I mean.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Aug 13 2004, 15:39 UTC)
What to do with those? split split split splitting headache.
*
smile.gif I see what you mean. Well, I'd just leave those as is then, being in the 'general' lossless forum.

QUOTE (Jan S. @ Aug 13 2004, 15:39 UTC)
Basicly I agree with the opposition to this proposal on all accounts, but as one of the people that has to do the work here I often see things from the pragmatic view.
*
Pragmatism can be a good thing. Still, I don't quite understand what you mean by opposing the cons of my proposal to your being pragmatic. Could you explain that a little further?

Just a quick word to all: I'm sorry if you feel like I'm pushing this. Thanks anyway to those willing to exchange thoughts.
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