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foo_dsp_vlevel, dynamic compressor which amplifies the q
odyssey
post Jul 21 2007, 17:07
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QUOTE (Melomane @ Mar 25 2006, 00:59) *
question: it is possible to add option to menu in order to activate/disable vlevel without open dspmanager

I'd like this too.


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Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P
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Squeller
post Sep 6 2007, 05:07
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meee2! But seriously I see there's currently no development on the plugin any more.

I use this dsp inside the converter chain (converting for car audio). Did you people realize it adds significant noise, some kind of metallic hiss artifacts, to tracks? You can hear that especially in the beginning of tracks which start silent.
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nawhead
post Sep 6 2007, 06:11
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QUOTE (Squeller @ Sep 6 2007, 00:07) *
I use this dsp inside the converter chain (converting for car audio). Did you people realize it adds significant noise, some kind of metallic hiss artifacts, to tracks? You can hear that especially in the beginning of tracks which start silent.


That's the point of dynamic range compression. Make quiet parts loud and make loud parts quiet. The "dynamic range" is compressed. Less peaks, just one big valley. You're just hearing the background hiss that's already on the track which you don't hear at regular volumes.

This post has been edited by nawhead: Sep 6 2007, 06:12
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elenhil
post Sep 6 2007, 22:48
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Yep. If only dsp like this could recognize the silence at the beginning and at the end of tracks and do not amplify the volume there...
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odyssey
post Sep 6 2007, 23:25
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QUOTE (elenhil @ Sep 6 2007, 23:48) *
Yep. If only dsp like this could recognize the silence at the beginning and at the end of tracks and do not amplify the volume there...

Define silence wink.gif

Are you sure this plugin is in fact compressing the dynamics and not justamplifying the quiet parts? I mean... foobar already compensate for loudness with replaygain huh.gif


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Squeller
post Sep 7 2007, 05:12
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QUOTE (nawhead @ Sep 6 2007, 07:11) *
That's the point of dynamic range compression.
Thanks for the dummie information wink.gif No, I was under the impression the dsp adds a specific artifact to the audio material because IIRC I've heard that noise more than once now... I'll hunt it down and upload samples.

EDIT: Done. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=514917
I'm on a notebook and cannot hear, if the noise is in the original too. The dsp.m4a has been converted with "apply gain/prevent clipping" and Vlevel DSP with the values: str.80,mul15,len4s. The noise is not from the aac conversion, it would also be there in lossless targets.

EDIT2 - Just realized the noise is in the original. So it was false alarm about vlevel adding noise sad.gif. Vlevel is great smile.gif

This post has been edited by Squeller: Sep 7 2007, 08:12
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nawhead
post Sep 7 2007, 07:51
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QUOTE (odyssey @ Sep 6 2007, 18:25) *
QUOTE (elenhil @ Sep 6 2007, 23:48) *

Yep. If only dsp like this could recognize the silence at the beginning and at the end of tracks and do not amplify the volume there...

Define silence wink.gif

Are you sure this plugin is in fact compressing the dynamics and not justamplifying the quiet parts? I mean... foobar already compensate for loudness with replaygain huh.gif


You only seem to hear the quiet parts more since your brain is processing a different sound than what you're used to hearing. The loud parts get quieter as well but your brain doesn't register it as much. But really, "quieter" is misleading. With DRC's, the overall sound seems to get louder since what's happening is all the sounds are getting crammed into the range where our ears are most sensitive. For example, say you have a room full of people. Ten people are whispering far away (you can barely hear them). One person is talking normally in front of you. So let's move all the whispering people closer to you by 5 meters so you can hear them. And move the talking person back 5 meters. You can still hear the talking person. But now you have all these whispering people around you, and the room seems noisier in general. So the sound dynamics of the room completely change.

Also, Replaygain is completely different from DRC's like VLevel. Replaygain only keeps the average loudness at a set target dB. This is accomplished by decreasing or increasing the gain. It just so happens that most recordings are too loud so most tracks get quieter. But on musical pieces with a very wide dynamic range, the average loudness may be audible in a moving car/loud workplace, but the quiet segments completely fade into the background noise. So Replaygain is useless in these situations. Let's use the example of the room full of people again. With Replaygain, you don't move the people, you tell the whispering people to talk normally and the talking person to shout. So this way, the sound dynamics are maintained since you always hear the talking person as much louder than the whispering people.

I hope that made sense... blink.gif

This post has been edited by nawhead: Sep 7 2007, 22:23
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elenhil
post Sep 7 2007, 15:25
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...And the problem is there is often 'silence' at the beginning and at the end of a track that shouldn't be amplified. DSPs like this treat this silence equally with other quiet parts - they try to make it loud. And loud 'silence' is noise. I wish someone could make this plugin a bit smarter.

This post has been edited by elenhil: Sep 7 2007, 15:26
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asral
post Sep 7 2007, 20:28
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lower the max. multiplier value a little bit.

Than the amplification will be lower as well as the amplified noise.

I use 9.
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elenhil
post Sep 7 2007, 20:32
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That is not a true solution, isn't it?
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blubbo
post Sep 7 2007, 23:58
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Uhm, I'd guess that this plugin is supposed to be used at parties, conventions or other gatherings when the noise-part doesn't matter but everyone should hear the music. As has been said, replaygain is not the solution but compression is. Radio-channels compress the music they play to better fit where most people listen to it, the car, at work etc. This is the same.

Simply, if you are at home, alone and enjoying some relaxing (or exciting) music you really should not need to have this plugin loaded.
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Squeller
post Sep 8 2007, 13:21
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BTW you've probably seen it in another section: The noise addition wasn't a vlevel problem, but nero aac encoder failure at q 0.6 and even higher. Serious problem imo if you encode classical music.
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elenhil
post Sep 8 2007, 19:38
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QUOTE (blubbo @ Sep 8 2007, 02:58) *
Simply, if you are at home, alone and enjoying some relaxing (or exciting) music you really should not need to have this plugin loaded.

I don't think so. I often cannot turn my music loud enough at home to listen to certain kinds of music (operas et al.) where there is a too much a difference between the loudest and the quietest parts. I need a bit of compression to make quiet parts a bit louder without making the loud parts too loud.
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asral
post Sep 8 2007, 21:51
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QUOTE (elenhil @ Sep 7 2007, 22:32) *
That is not a true solution, isn't it?



If you are using vlevel for any reason, you are changing the levels. So expect some raised noise at low levels.
That's in the nature of the component.

However by adjusting the components settings to your listening conditions you can minimize this effect.

Also the problem isn't limited to a song's start and end. I generally listen to classical and this problem can occur at the middle of a track -especially by analog recordings.

This is what you pay for listening music at a noisy place or play it quieter for the sake of your neighbors at night.

vlevel also gives me problems with gapless playback. The volume sometimes falls suddenly at track changes.

edit. typo

However, no other way to listen to Carmina Burana at midnight..

This post has been edited by asral: Sep 8 2007, 21:52
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Squeller
post Sep 9 2007, 16:11
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QUOTE (asral @ Sep 8 2007, 22:51) *
Also the problem isn't limited to a song's start and end. I generally listen to classical and this problem can occur at the middle of a track[...]
Exactly this is the point.
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asral
post Sep 9 2007, 20:56
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Unless someone designs a program that can discriminate between music and noise (that's not part of music) or a cough - that does listen to music just as the human brain does, the only solution seems to lower the gain until the noise does not sound noticeable at your environmental noise level.

May be a vlevel value added to the file like rg value can be solution. How this value can be changed along the time axis may be the problem here.
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elenhil
post Sep 10 2007, 18:27
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QUOTE (asral @ Sep 9 2007, 00:51) *
Also the problem isn't limited to a song's start and end. I generally listen to classical and this problem can occur at the middle of a track -especially by analog recordings.

I can abide amplified "mid-silence". Sudden level changes when amplified "end-silence" abruptly turns into next track's yet-unamplified "pre-silence" (which in turn gets amplified just to die away when the actual music begins) is much worse, and that problem can be solved with treating "start-/end-" "and "middle-silence" differently.
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asral
post Sep 10 2007, 20:36
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[/quote]
I can abide amplified "mid-silence". Sudden level changes when amplified "end-silence" abruptly turns into next track's yet-unamplified "pre-silence" (which in turn gets amplified just to die away when the actual music begins) is much worse, and that problem can be solved with treating "start-/end-" "and "middle-silence" differently.
[/quote]


It seems vlevel resets between tracks. Apart from the above problem this causes clicks in live recordings track changes. Vlevel should be able to read ahead from the next track (gapless). This would solve some problems.

I don't have any idea if foobar2000 allows this. (That is to read from the next track while still playing the current one)
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Wiesl
post Dec 27 2007, 08:03
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Hello!

I updated foo_dsp_vlevel to version 20071107.0 with the following changes:
made ready for 0.9.x series
config settings now work well
added useful limits for max multiplier
added dB scale
added debug code

You can download the new version under:
http://www.wiesinger.com/opensource/foobar..._dsp_vlevel.dll

You need the following DLLs (Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable Package (x86)):
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...;displaylang=en

I've tested it with foobar2000 0.9.5Beta* without any problems.

Please let me know whether all the problems have been fixed.

When there are no problems reported I'll release the source code, too.

Wiesl
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Squeller
post Dec 28 2007, 12:38
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Hey thanks, it works, but I didn't have any problems before, so no changes for me smile.gif
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Wiesl
post Dec 28 2007, 17:25
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QUOTE (Squeller @ Dec 28 2007, 13:38) *
Hey thanks, it works, but I didn't have any problems before, so no changes for me smile.gif


Did saving of the configs work before?

With which foobar2000/plugin version?

Wiesl
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Squeller
post Dec 29 2007, 12:38
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Yes, worked, any fb2k 0.9 till latest beta and foo_dsp_vlevel v.20060324.0

This post has been edited by Squeller: Dec 29 2007, 12:38
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Wiesl
post Mar 2 2008, 21:32
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Hello!

I updated foo_dsp_vlevel to version 20080302.0 with the following changes:
- Updated README
- Updated Version
So there are no code changes.

You can download the new version under:
http://www.wiesinger.com/opensource/foobar..._dsp_vlevel.dll

Source code can be found at:
http://www.wiesinger.com/opensource/foobar...-20080302.0.zip

You need the following DLLs (Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable Package (x86)):
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...;displaylang=en

I've tested it with foobar2000 0.9.5.1 without any problems.

Wiesl
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geoslake
post Mar 3 2008, 17:51
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hi

thanks for this
Is there a possibility to get it to run without installing the vc++ thing on c:/
I mean we could put the required dll's on a subfolder or something ?
(requiring such things doesnt go well with the foobar minimalistic philosophy imho)

thanks
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Squeller
post Mar 4 2008, 13:47
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It's about how it's compiled, static libraries, isn't it? I also prefer "everything in one place", which would make the whole thing portable...
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